What can we do to further improve Rv10?

[iwod]

In terms of its Quality, Speed. etc. Any ideas?

HFE is nothing more then a post filter. So we need something more like EHQ?

I remember karl said with current Helix it is quite easy to have an extra plug in to Producer.

[Sirber]

Not sure if we (karl) can improve RV10 further whitout changing the bitstream.

Here's some ideas I have:
Fractal polygons (for anime content)
Bi-stream, one for background, one for details
Could be cool :D

[Razorblade2000]

I'd love to have a working Linux version :(
ATM, the producer can only accept uncompressed material and isn't able of reading via pipe (mplayer blabla.avi|producer -) --> kinda useless besides capturing :D

[Sirber]

yep. someone is working on that, an input plugin using libavcodec. Still pretty alpha. There is some work too on the ActiveX (SDK).

[Razorblade2000]

I know, you already told me :D
I just wanted to nag a little bit, so I could start encoding my beloved Real Video on my beloved Linux Distri as soon as possible :D

p.s. does this alpha build work?

[Sirber]

dunno :confused:

It's for linux :o

[Tommy Carrot]

I know most of you will disagree with me, but a RV10 VFW codec would be great. :p

[Sirber]

It might, but RV10 is VFR so it can't be stored in AVI (VFW).

[Tommy Carrot]

I'm only interested in the compression core of the RV10, and it can be ported to VFW. I couldn't care less about VFR. ;)

[Manao]

MPEG-4 is VFR :rolleyes:

[iwod]

Originally posted by Manao
MPEG-4 is VFR :rolleyes:

what?

[lunaticmoon]

I expect the future of RV10 individually...

1) The input of 120fps materials, and the True VFR output which drops NULL frames (Already possible in WMV)
2) An excavation of the various plug-in authors by plug-in systematization of Producer
3) The contribution to the hybrid material by improvement of DropDupe
4) Development of the GUI editor which is easy to use
5) The Visual frontend which had an edit function like VirtualDub or AVIUTL
6) The automatic optimal VFR output from a hybrid material input (Probably, it will be no method of a way and be difficult)
.
.
.
100) Improvement of the manners of Real Player, or open source of RV40 codec :p

Since quality of image is good, I want it to strengthen the strong point in the low bit rate with now individually. Because, at high bit rate quantity size, MPEG 2 is [ certain ] already a sake.
I think that it is good at the quota by other codecs, and there is no necessity of becoming omnipotent.

[Manao]

OT : Taken from the MPEG-4 normative document : fixed_vop_rate : This is a one bit flag which indicates that all VOPs are coded with a fixed VOP rate [...] If it is '0', the display time between any two successive VOPs in the display order can be variable thus indicated by the time stamps provided in the VOP header
Almost all the implementations of the MPEG-4 norm use a VFW interface, hence the lack of VFR MPEG-4 codec.

[Sirber]

1) Stick to 60, and dropdupe drop frames :)
2) what what what?
4-5) The editor (GUI) doesn't support AAC/HE-AAC/Cook 5.1, nor matroska.
6) Don't know if it already works
100) Keep dreaming :p

[S_O]

I know most of you will disagree with me, but a RV10 VFW codec would be great.
An vfw/acm codec would great, would make it easy to create files with VirtualDub etc.
But of course storing RV in avi is bad, so my idea:
An vfw and a acm input tool, consisting of 3 three parts:
-A RealVideo fake VfW codec
-A RealAudio fake ACM codec
-The real encoding application
It works like that: You start your VfW/ACM application (for example VirtualDub), you just select the RealVideo/RealAudio codecs. Before you start encoding in this application, you start the real encoding application, make audio/video etc. settings (and where the output file should be). You start encoding in vfw/acm app, the vfw/acm-codecs automatically connect to this app and send the video/adio data to it, while the codecs itself yust output dummy data.

Another option (a bit ffvfw like) is to include this "real encoding application" into the vfw/acm codecs, so you make the audio/video settings inside the codecs properties and you specify the target file there. When you start encoding and the vfw/acm have the same target file, they´ll automatically connect to each other and create one output file. Of course still dummy data at vfw/acm output.

After thinking about, I think the second idea is better, because more easy (and people using this want an easy solution).
Someone could download the producer-code at Helix and create these vfw/acm-dummy codecs of it.

or open source of RV40 codec That´s a very good idea, but RealNetworks probably won´t do that. But they´ll could at least open the specs (what can they lose? They´ll have most probably lots of patents in it, so nobody could create a RealVideo codec without paying them). At least they´ll could open the specs for the container, even the ASF specs are open (you can download them on the official microsoft homepage). That would make it more easy to create for example a muxing application to mux aac and RealVideo into a new rm.

[Sirber]

I think using Helix Producer is sufficient, and due to limited workers, it's best to give priorities elsewhere. I don't think RV will be ever opensource or VFW. I'm already glad that I can play RV files outside of RealPlayer :)

[lunaticmoon]

Not the meaning of wanting to treat RV10 by existing VFW frontend (like VirtualDub etc.) but what I wrote means that I want a thing like VirtualDubRV10 of RV10 exclusive use.:D

Although common knowledge is taking out frontend excellent in various developers including Sirber to the world, formality is felt for the point that the edit at the time of an input cannot be operated to Visual, for a while.


But they´ll could at least open the specs (what can they lose? They´ll have most probably lots of patents in it, so nobody could create a RealVideo codec without paying them).


I search, after not knowing it. It is glad if there is indication "see this." :D

[Sirber]

HE-AAC bellow 64kbps is warmly welcome :D I'm bored of those high bitrates :rolleyes:

[Stux]

Almost all the implementations of the MPEG-4 norm use a VFW interface, hence the lack of VFR MPEG-4 codec.

3ivx's DirectShow Video Encoder is a VFR MPEG-4 codec. Also 3ivx's DirectShow Media Muxer can be used to convert "pseudo-VFR" 120fps AVI type streams into true VFR MP4 files.

[Sirber]

What tool can I use to use DirectShow codec? :confused:

[lunaticmoon]

3ivx's DirectShow Video Encoder is a VFR MPEG-4 codec. Also 3ivx's DirectShow Media Muxer can be used to convert "pseudo-VFR" 120fps AVI type streams into true VFR MP4 files.


I hear it very attractively for me.

However, installation of 3ivx also uses as an ear rumor that Windows may be made unstable. Can uninstallation be done perfectly?

Oops, More than this is whether to tell by this forum.:D

[lunaticmoon]

But they´ll could at least open the specs (what can they lose? They´ll have most probably lots of patents in it, so nobody could create a RealVideo codec without paying them).


I search, after not knowing it. It is glad if there is indication "see this." :D


I searched, but I could not find the RV40 codecs inside info.
Although I had participated in Helix Community, the structure there was not able to pull out the information on the hand unintelligibly.

Is still the information on the hand in somewhere?

Although especially I am interested about the action of DropDupe, is the information inside RV40 codec required for this? Or if source of Producer is read, does it understand? :confused:

[Sirber]

You want to see DropDupe internals?

[Stux]

Originally posted by lunaticmoon
installation of 3ivx also uses as an ear rumor that Windows may be made unstable.

?

Can uninstallation be done perfectly?

Yes

[lunaticmoon]

�—Sirber

Yes, I want to know. Supposing it can understand to me.:D
It is interested in the display timing of the frame after DropDupe.

@Stux

Thanks for reply. I will try later.

[Sirber]

Maybe you can get the source and modify it :)

[MSlv]

Originally posted by Sirber
Maybe you can get the source and modify it :)
meh...
That would be the event of the year...

[Sirber]

What do you mean?

[lunaticmoon]

It will mean "That it can be accomplished will take in several years.", wont it ?

Since DropDupe is probably the trade secrets of RealNetworks, I think that there cannot be no sauce public presentation of the portion.:(

[iwod]

Originally posted by lunaticmoon
It will mean "That it can be accomplished will take in several years.", wont it ?

Since DropDupe is probably the trade secrets of RealNetworks, I think that there cannot be no sauce public presentation of the portion.:(

I don't think it is that much of a secrets. May be Karl could give it out since it is not much of a programming task anyway. The difficult work are being done on the Avisyth side.......

[Sirber]

DropDupe is opensource and avalible freely on Helix Community :cool:

[lunaticmoon]

I have also participated in Helix Community.
However, that site is unclear. :confused:

I look for the sauce of DropDupe even at a weekend.

P.S.
By Doom9, it was introduced to URL that BBS was in Helix Community site, and I began and got to know it.

[Sirber]

the HC site is very bad. takes forever to get something. At least to report bugs it's less than 10 clicks :D

[iwod]

are there any more good ideas?

I am looking for something to Improve the quality in 500-600K Range

Currently i am using Avisyth and using trial and error to get their optimum setting..

[Sirber]

Post them if you find them :D RealAnime is waiting ^^

[RadicalEd]

Didn't Karl say awhile ago that there were improvements yet to be made to EHQ?

[Sirber]

I don't think so...

[iwod]

Originally posted by RadicalEd
Didn't Karl say awhile ago that there were improvements yet to be made to EHQ?

I think you are referring to HFE...........

EHQ was a nice adition. But i am looking for more. Any chance for EHQ 120?

I am currently investigating how to pre-process the source with AVisyth, so would result for better quality gernally( Such as PSNR .. etc measurement ).

Any body have anything to contribute?

I was thinking of a B-Frame and Dupedrop control combination. Something that will further smooth the transition between frame.

Automatically detect fast Motion and slow motion to use different setting/ Technique....

And any more plan Karl ? :D

[Sirber]

I use Nic PP (ffdshow) and aWarpSharp (AVISynth) on bad VHS rip...

[iwod]

time to dig this up........... ANy more coming?

[karl_lillevold]

Yes, please post suggestions for what you would like improved :cool:

[Dark-Cracker]

hi,

>Yes, please post suggestions for what you would like improved :)

i think the unicode support for the rmeditor and support for file bigger than 2Gb could be really usefull :)

++

[karl_lillevold]

Yes, me too. I wish I could prioritize for the Producer team. Then we would certainly also look for a work-around for the Avisynth/DirectShow memory leak :devil:

[Sirber]

Better filename support for jobfile!

It does not take "&" and other cool caracters :eek:

[E-Male]

i don't know if this will be possible, because i don't know the innerworkings of rv10, but anyway:

since rv10 drops detail that it can't encode, resulting in a more flat look, maybe this would help:

let the encoder detect wich parts of a frame are sharp (for example in focus) and which are not (for exmaple out of focus)
then take bite from the non-sharp parts and give them to the sharp parts
this way the sharp objects might keep some more sharpness while the out of focus or fast moving parts -which are blurry anyway- get even more blurry which should be much less noticably

[LiFe]

Pet requests:
- Continued quality improvements (don't forget you're up against AVC now) with the view to a x86-64bit future.
- Focus on quality in dark scenes, which is a little lacking.
- New GUI (whatsisname who just had a baby, Steve? was working on something that looked like it had a lot more promise than the old RealProducer).
- HE-AAC Multichannel Sound (what is the point in spending time developing RA Multichannel When HE-AAC seems to be more efficent?)
- Approach AMD to tune RV for AMD processors.
- Continued Surestream improvement, perhaps there are more ways of reducing duplicate data in surestream files.
- Investigate using on board GPU processing power to accellerate encoding/decoding.
- Add muxing and demuxing to RealMedia Editor for Audio/Video and Surestream content.

On the Player side:
- Buffering needs urgent improvement. The player buffers a massive amount of data when playing High res clips from HDD, causing horribly slow seeking. This doesn't happen in MPC, however MPC also runs out of buffered data on highly complex scenes and stutters. Player should start playback from HDD immediately, and buffer in the background.
- Player is starting to get unweildy, perhaps look at releasing a miniplayer, that doesn't have all the CD ripping/burning, music download, music library features. Just a player that loads as fast as MPC.

LiFe.

[wata]

adding AMD support

[Sirber]

No need to spend time on AMD support: Sempron and AMD64 have SSE2 :rolleyes:

[damrod]

maybe add 64 bits support :-))

ok win xp64 is not released yet but...

[Prettz]

Originally posted by Sirber
No need to spend time on AMD support: Sempron and AMD64 have SSE2 :rolleyes:
AMD64 has always had SSE2

[Sirber]

which means no need :D

Duron and Athlon XP are not avalible anymore on the market...

@damrod

I have XP 64-bit waiting on a CD, downloaded directly from www.micro$oft.com :D

[Shinigami-Sama]

yeah
windows is beta testing the 64bit os
365 days free
then you hafta pay
but hell
it's worth it :)
or you could just get a sever tower and use its 64bit os and cpu :)
image the power
dual+ 64bits cpu/os encodeing you dvds :)
mayny frames a sec :)

[Sirber]

1 year free... I format each 3 months :D COunter back to 0 ^^

[iwod]

Yes i just notice AVC and Snow on The New Codec Thread.......

Rv10 needs improvement compare to those........