How to encode RealAudio in M4A without RealPlayer?

[tedgo]

Is there any possibility to encode RealAudio10 (AAC and HE-AAC) directly into M4A/MP4 without the need of the crappy RealPlayer?
Until now I encoded RealAudio10 with Easy RealMedia Producer into MKV, demuxed the AAC-Stream with mkvextract and muxed it into M4A with mp4creator. But it's a bit circumstantial. Additionally there's no chance to create RealAudio Lossless with Easy RealMedia Producer.

I know the RealPlayer is able to rip CD's directly to M4A, but for WAVE (I'm an amateur musician) i would need an upgrade to the Premium-Version. But I don't like the RealPlayer 'cos every second option which is available for free in every other player is only available in the expensive Premium-Version. :(

[Latexxx]

Dtdrive (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73279&highlight=dtdrive) allows you to convert .rm files which contain AAC content encoded by Real Player or Helix Producer directly to .m4a or .mp4.

[bond]

you could also use other aac codec, like the ones from nero and apple to directly encode to .mp4 (aka .m4a) with aac
both should provide better quality than the one from real

[tedgo]

Originally posted by bond
you could also use other aac codec, like the ones from nero and apple to directly encode to .mp4 (aka .m4a) with aac
both should provide better quality than the one from real
You're right: they should provide better quality but don't do that on my opinion. Especially with 128kbps.
I know the codec comparision but have done my own and my results are completeley different.
Nero could provide a better quality with its variable bitrate mode, but there are some strange artifacts in it (like clicking in very quiet passages). These artifacts are hearable in all VBR modes except "Transcoding", but the resulting bitrate is for about 300kbps...
And Apple's sounds a bit "colder" than the original tracks. Very stable at 10000Hz but not as "brillant" as RealAudio or Nero.

@Latexxx
Your method isn't very different than mine. I'm searching for a tool that encodes directly in M4A.

Perhaps there's somewhere a command-line encoder which is usable with foobar2000?

Btw. my targets are to save my own music in a lossless format for myself and to encode it for my friends (and for my portable player) in AAC. Nero doesn't offer an Lossless Codec Option. Apple does, but the files are still too large and only playable on iTunes and the tags of the AAC-Files are only readable with iTunes/iPod.

[bond]

Originally posted by tedgo
You're right: they [B]should provide better quality but don't do that on my opinion. Especially with 128kbps.
I know the codec comparision but have done my own and my results are completeley different.
Nero could provide a better quality with its variable bitrate mode, but there are some strange artifacts in it (like clicking in very quiet passages). These artifacts are hearable in all VBR modes except "Transcoding", but the resulting bitrate is for about 300kbps...
And Apple's sounds a bit "colder" than the original tracks. Very stable at 10000Hz but not as "brillant" as RealAudio or Nero.its good if people make their own tests :)

Perhaps there's somewhere a command-line encoder which is usable with foobar2000?well are you that sure that helix producer doesnt support .mp4 output?

the tags of the AAC-Files are only readable with iTunes/iPod.nope, the tags used in itunes are pretty widely supported already, like in winamp or foobar

[tedgo]

Oh, yes, you're right. I tried it once again and the tags were readable in foobar (don't know what's going wrong before. Probably forgot to save the tags :D ). Sorry for posting a wrong information.

I don't know if the helix producer supports mp4/m4a-output. Is there anywhere a good description for helix producer?

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by tedgo
Btw. my targets are to save my own music in a lossless format for myself and to encode it for my friends (and for my portable player) in AAC.


Do you understand that you don't have to rip & encode using same program. You can rip using EAC like I do and afterwards encode the files and tag them using foobar2000's freedb tagger.

Nero doesn't offer an Lossless Codec Option.

check http://neroplugins.cd-rw.org/

[tedgo]

Originally posted by Latexxx
Do you understand that you don't have to rip & encode using same program. You can rip using EAC like I do and afterwards encode the files and tag them using foobar2000's freedb tagger.
Sorry, but you misunderstood me: I don't want to rip CD's! This could I do with the RealPlayer. I want to encode my own music, saved as WAVE on my HDD, in RealAudio10 as *.m4a for my friends and my portable, and lossless for saving space on my HDD.
But to encode WAVE in RA10 with the RealPlayer I have to upgrade it to the expensive Premium-Version and I don't want to do this.

These plugins are wellknown. I meant that Nero itself doesn't offer a lossless codec format. And the plugins are often outdated...

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by tedgo
Sorry, but you misunderstood me: I don't want to rip CD's! This could I do with the RealPlayer. I want to encode my own music, saved as WAVE on my HDD, in RealAudio10 as *.m4a for my friends and my portable, and lossless for saving space on my HDD.
But to encode WAVE in RA10 with the RealPlayer I have to upgrade it to the expensive Premium-Version and I don't want to do this.

Use foobar's cd-write module (which requires Nero) to write a CD image which contains the songs you want to convert. Mount this image as a "cd" using daemon tools. Rip your "cd" using Real Player.

[tedgo]

I think it's also long winded as my old method with ERM, mkvextract and mp4creator. ;)
But thanks for your help.
It seems that there's no easier way, isn't it?
Perhaps I should change to WMA9Lossless (produces fairly small files, for about 10% smaller than Apple's does) and WMA9Pro (my winner at 128kbps in VBR mode), although there's no support for my portable...

[karl_lillevold]

tedgo: It is nice to see someone test encoders for themselves. I believe there is an incarnation of dtdrive, mentioned earlier, that can encode directly from WAV to M4A, but not the version I built and released as a binary earlier. It was tricky to get it to work. I will look into it again.

[tedgo]

@karl_lillevold
Thank you for your reply. Where can I find these version of dtdrive? I've searched the forum but I don't know which version is ist?

[JohnV]

Originally posted by tedgo
Nero could provide a better quality with its variable bitrate mode, but there are some strange artifacts in it (like clicking in very quiet passages). These artifacts are hearable in all VBR modes except "Transcoding", but the resulting bitrate is for about 300kbps... That's interesting. Haven't heard anybody complain about any clicking before with it. Care to link to an example wav or upload it to Hydrogenaudio uploads forum (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=35) ?

I know the codec comparision but have done my own and my results are completeley different.Could be, and people have their own preferences of course, but Rjamorim's results are from blind testings of dozens of people who did the testing themselves and submitted their results for analysis which gave statistically valid results, so that should not be forgotten. Did you do blind testing?
There's lots room for improvements in Real's AAC codec according to it. Though that can be said also from the other AAC codecs.

[tedgo]

@John V
Sorry, but I can't upload a sample, cos I have no webspace and just a 56k analogue modem.:(

But it was especially hearable with:

Thomas Dolby - Dissidents
(in the first few seconds are only bass and a few effects. Between them - especially by the bass - there were some clicks and pre-echoes)

Kate Bush - Kite
(after the drum kicks were echoes and clicking)

Dr. Alban - Let The Beat Go on
(in the first seconds and in the middle of the track there were some quiet popping noises)

and a song made by me, with extremely low bass drums at the beginning of the file.
With this file the artifacts are most exeedingly noticeable.
If you wish, send me an e-mail or a message and I'll send you the first 25-30 seconds of this track compressed as APE/FLAC/WMA9Lossless or whatever you want.

Don't missunderstand me: The artifacts are hearable but are not very loud. You have to be very attentive to hear them in the most cases (and only with headphones. I used my Sennheiser HD 580), but they are definitely existing (probably I'm a bit more pretentious as I should ;) )

I made my test with three steps:
At first I made an ABX-Test with foobar2000
At second I made an ABC HR-Test
At third I heard all the files in the order I ascertained with the two tests to verify them.
And it's a subjective test i know, but I want to know which codec I prefer for that bitrate and not trust a test I haven't made by myself (a german adage says: never trust statistics, you haven't faked by yourself ;)).

I know RealAudio isn't as perfect as i could but it's a good alternative to MP3.

Btw. I also made a little test with 256kbps. Here is Nero with CBR-Mode a bit better as RealAudio, but the VBR-Mode is still a "little clicking" Mode.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by tedgo
@John V
Sorry, but I can't upload a sample, cos I have no webspace and just a 56k analogue modem.:(
As I said, you can upload to the HA uploads forum. If you compress with lossless audio compressor,like with FLAC, a 4-5s clip, it will take 400-500KB which only takes few minutes to upload even with a modem.
It would be useful in both verifying your claim, and in the encoder development.
(a german adage says: never trust statistics, you haven't faked by yourself )Statistics may not be true for you, you may have different preferences or your hearing is differently emphasized than for majority (your dont hear one problem, but hear another problem even more clearly etc). Group test shows what is true for a group in general, meaning most people on average. That is how for example medicine effectiveness is tested.
Of course only 12 sample test does not reveal every detail of the codec performance, but it gives a general impression.

[tedgo]

Damn, I tried four times to upload the sample as attachment in the Upload-Section from hydrogenaudio, but it doesn't seem to work.
The filesize of the sample is 2.38MB. Maybe too large?

[karl_lillevold]

tedgo: I will put on my todo list to build a new dtdrive version that can encode from WAV directly, but I do not know when I will get to it (going on vacation as well). In the meantime, I am afraid you will have to use one of two 'roundabout' methods, both can be fully automated in the CLI encode function in EAC. You just have to chain together the string of commands, as described here ("Using Producer and EAC to rip to iPod compatible M4A") (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=432085&highlight=EAC#post432085).

1) this you already know about, and is what I describe in this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=18863&hl=mkvextract&view=findpost&p=186125) on hydrogenaudio.

Summary:
producer : WAV -> RM-AAC
mkvextract : RM-AAC -> AAC (lossless)
mp4creator60: AAC -> M4A (lossless)

Alternatively and is what I describe in the EAC CLI instructions, which was needed before mkvextract could extract from RM files:
producer with mkvwriter: WAV -> AAC-MKA
mkvextract : AAC-MKA -> AAC (lossless)
mp4creator60: AAC -> M4A (lossless)


2) with the existing dtdrive (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73279&highlight=dtdrive) you can shorten the chain by one step. See dtdrive options in its thread.

Summary:
producer : WAV -> RM-AAC
dtdrive: RM-AAC -> M4A (lossless)

Finally, I would also tag on a 'tg.exe' command in EAC to set your tags, but you are probably already doing this. Again, see Producer-EAC instructions.

[damrod]

i add a small gui to convert rm-aac to mp4 or m4a file...--- mp4creator original name no? ;-))

the main purpose was for the ipod of my cousin...

i have problem converting wav to aac-losseless with the activex dll...

[tedgo]

Thanks for your replies.
I think I will first stay on my old method:
EasyRM Producer - WAVE-->AAC-MKV
mkvextract - AAC-MKV-->AAC
mp4creator (with Ivan & Menno GUI) - AAC-->M4A

It's just the same as karl_lillevold's method.
I hope there's sometime an easier way to do it all in one step.
It would be nice if programs like ERM or RV10 and so on would have an option to output audio only in M4A.
Till then I'm still awaiting karl_lillevold's next dtdrive version ;)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yep, Foobar2000 makes it easy to create Nero AAC LC or HE with an .m4a file extension...

http://img48.exs.cx/img48/8091/SMD_Foobar2000_withm4a.gif

...look at that lovely .m4a check-box!


Cheers

[tedgo]

@SeeMoreDigital
I know, and I always use foobar2000 to create M4A with the Nero Codec, but I've searched for a simple way to create RealAudio10 Files with an *.m4a-extension, not NeroAAC.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by tedgo
@SeeMoreDigital
I know, and I always use foobar2000 to create M4A with the Nero Codec, but I've searched for a simple way to create RealAudio10 Files with an *.m4a-extension, not NeroAAC. I gather RealMedia are intending to sell AAC audio tracks for use with the Apple iPod. In direct competition to Apple's own iTunes database!

One would presume that if RealMedia's tracks are to be fully compatible with the iPod they will carry the .m4a file extension. With this in mind I would also presume that it's just a matter of time before RealMedia modify their own RealPlayer application to do the same ;)


Cheers

[tedgo]

Oh, the RealPlayer is able to encode CD's directly to *,m4a, but I want to encode my WAVE-Files in *.m4a, which is only available in the expensive Premium-Version of the RealPlayer... :(

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by tedgo
Oh, the RealPlayer is able to encode CD's directly to *,m4a, but I want to encode my WAVE-Files in *.m4a, which is only available in the expensive Premium-Version of the RealPlayer... :( Well one option would be to re-encode your WAV files and burn them onto an CD~RW ie: CD-DA (closed session) disc format.

Once done RealPlayer should read/recognise the disc as a proper audio CD and then you should be able to convert it ;)


Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

Using the same cmd line technique as described here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=432085&highlight=EAC#post432085), it is also easy to set up the CLI Encoder module in Foobar2000 to encode WAV to M4A using Producer and dtdrive. I should probably post the exact instructions, just to make sure... since it is admittedly more complicated than the Nero encoder.