I need help with filters/RB. Any Tips or Suggestion, DDogg, wmansir?

[wlj101]

Hi,

this is my first post and I was reading this forum for the past week. I am trying to get the best setting (VBR_Bias/Quality_Pres/Passes) from other users' experience here...

What I am trying to do is to make a copy with a NBA Los Angeles Lakers The Complete History DVD-9. This DVD-9 contain almost 3 hours of video.

I used VBR_B 20, QP 16 and 2 passes for CCE 2.66 to compress the video with RB. I learn that 20-16 is the best setting for Long video, right? But the result is not very good so I try to apply some filter with RB.

But I have few questions about filters with RB.

I was trying to use 3 filters at the same time. Those are Undot(), deen(), FluxSmooth(). Do you think it is a good combinations or do I only use Undot, deen or just fluxsmooth alone?

Also, I am not sure is the filters are apply to the video during the compression. What I did was put the script in RB like this

Undot()
deen()
FluxSmooth()

and after Prepare, I use RB-Optv0.11 to edit the REBUILDER.INF. And here is the script.

1 - #------------------
2 - # AVS File Created by DVD Rebuilder
3 - # VOBID:01, CELLID:01
4 - #------------------
5 - LoadPlugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\FluxSmooth.dll")
6 - LoadPlugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\UnDot.dll")
7 - LoadPlugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Deen.dll")
8 - LoadPlugin("K:\DVD Temp\MPEG2Dec3dg.dll")
9 - mpeg2source("K:\DVD TEMP\NEW FOLDER\D2VAVS\V02.D2V",idct=7)
10 - trim(0,14)
11 - Undot()
12 - deen()
13 - FluxSmooth()
14 - ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

Am I doing it right, wmansir?
Is the order Undot-deen-FluxSmooth good?
Also, is the capital letters important in the script? such as UnDot()/Undot or Deen()/deen() or fluxsmooth()/FluxSmooth?
Also, DDogg mention that #sometimes Fluxsmooth(5,5), what are those number (5,5)? Do you think I need to put them in the script?

Thank you all experts here

WLJ1O1

[TheSeeker]

I am far from an expert but I think the placement looks good. The filters should go before Converttoyuv so thats correct and after the mpeg source line. so thats good. The placement looks good. I would just say to get rid of Fluxsmooth and try only undot().deen() The three in combination may be a little too much processing and might make it look even worse. Try just undot().deen() and see how that works you can always add fluxsmooth if the output still looks bad.

[SansGrip]

From my tests I can see little difference between the output of Deen and Undot together compared with FluxSmooth alone. The only real difference is that FluxSmoothT is twice the speed of Deen on my system.

If you're going to use FluxSmooth, make sure you get the very latest version (1.1a) from the FluxSmooth thread in the Avisynth Usage forum. I'd recommend just temporal smoothing for natural video, in which case you'd want to use FluxSmoothT rather than FluxSmoothST, which does spatial smoothing too.

What parameters you should use depends very much on how noisy the source material is. If it's very noisy try the default -- FluxSmoothT(7) -- but if it's the usual DVD quality I'd recommend FluxSmoothT(2) or FluxSmoothT(3), otherwise you might notice some oversmoothing.

You'll discover that pre-filtering video is an art, not a science. There's no fixed set of filters for every source :).

[wlj101]

FluxSmoothST? FluxSmoothT? oh my god... new things come out everyday to me... If you can help me more on this, i will appreciate that :D. OMG, i am going to spend two hours on avisynth forum... again~

the Lakers video quality is not very good, I am going to post some capture later.

So, all my script are correct, right?

[wmansir]

Like SansGrip said it's really an art more than a science. In fact if you look over some of the early threads on filters you will see a bit of heated discussion over that topic itself. It's best to let your eyes be the judge. Pick a fitler and try out different settings, soon you will find out what settings work best on certain types of material (to your eyes). I would recommend FluxSmooth for this over undot.deen because it's settings are much more simplified and strait forward.

Also, most noise filters don't work well on interlaced material, which your disc appears to be. Undot.Deen in particular blend the fields of the image and result in nasty artifacts. FluxSmooth is safer in this regard, though it probably still does some damage it's not nearly as evident to me.

[wlj101]

To SansGrip: I just downloaded your new version of FluxSmooth. So now what i do is to replace the FluxSmooth() with FluxSmoothT (5) in my Script? do i need to load a FluxSmoothT.dll?

Oh yeah, no one answer my Question about the different between Captial Letters or small letter in the script... it doesn't matter right?

WLj1O1

Edit: BTW, should I check "MPEG2Source("source,idct=7") when I doing the compression with RB? And should I use 3 Passes instead of 2 passes to take advantage of the filter during the compression?

[wmansir]

avisynth is not case sensitive.

You don't have to use idct=7. It will be mathematically closer to the intended picture, but it's not visibly apparent and since your doing filtering it doesn't matter.

You might what to increase the number of passes, not because your using filters, but because your bitrate is probably very low (hence the need for filtering) and increasing the number of passes has the most beneficial effect at low bitrates. Bumping it from 2 to 3 might give a noticeable increase in quality, but I wouldn't go higher unless you have time to kill.

[wlj101]

Alright wmansir, I listen to you~! Thanz

OH wait... how about the "Deinterlace with DECOMB" and "Disable "Interlaced""? should I use one of them?

I am still searching the posts here for these two functions...

[wmansir]

Your in NTSC land so you shouldn't ever have to use "Disable Interlaced" that's for improperly authored PAL discs.

"Deinterlace with DECOMB" is a bit tricker. The standard answer is that if you plan on watching it on your PC turn it on, if you watch it on a TV don't use it. However, it is also a matter of preference, like with filters. I

Pros to using it:
Will be progressive so it looks better on PC.
Also, you can use filters that only work on progressive material.
CCE will probably encode it better.

CONS:
Will degrade picture, possibly introduce artifacts.
Motion will not be as smooth on a TV: this may be very important with high action sports.
Increase encoding time.

[SansGrip]

Originally posted by wlj101
FluxSmoothST? FluxSmoothT? oh my god... new things come out everyday to me...
Every day? Nah. I released those a couple days ago ;).

FluxSmoothST is the same as the old FluxSmooth. FluxSmoothT is for those (like me) who used the old FluxSmooth to do temporal-only filtering. Because the spatial code is completely removed it runs about 50% faster than FluxSmoothST. For example on my system FluxSmoothST runs at 55fps, while FluxSmoothT runs at more than 75fps.

[SansGrip]

Originally posted by wlj101
To SansGrip: I just downloaded your new version of FluxSmooth. So now what i do is to replace the FluxSmooth() with FluxSmoothT (5) in my Script? do i need to load a FluxSmoothT.dll?
Both FluxSmoothT and FluxSmoothST are included in FluxSmooth.dll. That's the only one you need to load (or just put it in your Avisynth plugins folder and let Avisynth load it up automatically).

As I said above, technically if you want to duplicate the behaviour of the previous versions, you should use FluxSmoothST(), because it does spatio-temporal smoothing like the old versions. If you want to do just temporal you could do it the old way, and say FluxSmoothST(spatial_threshold=-1, temporal_threshold=<whatever>) to disable spatial smoothing, but that's the same as saying FluxSmoothT(<whatever>). The same, except FluxSmoothT is way faster.

So basically if you want spatio-temporal, use FluxSmoothST. If you want just temporal, use FluxSmoothT. The default parameters are kinda strong, so you might want to experiment a little.

Oh yeah, no one answer my Question about the different between Captial Letters or small letter in the script... it doesn't matter right?
Right.

[SansGrip]

Originally posted by wmansir
I would recommend FluxSmooth for this over undot.deen because it's settings are much more simplified and strait forward.
...and it's quicker :D.

FluxSmooth is safer in this regard, though it probably still does some damage it's not nearly as evident to me.
Any filter will damage interlaced material (er, except those designed for interlaced material, of course). Temporal filters will generally damage it less than spatial ones. I'm not a big fan of spatial smoothing for natural video. Anime, on the other hand, usually benefits from spatial smoothing.

[SansGrip]

Originally posted by wlj101
To SansGrip: I just downloaded your new version of FluxSmooth.
By the way, make sure it's version 1.1a. 1.1 had a couple of bugs.

[godhead]

Originally posted by wmansir
Your in NTSC land so you shouldn't ever have to use "Disable Interlaced" that's for improperly authored PAL discs.

"Deinterlace with DECOMB" is a bit tricker. The standard answer is that if you plan on watching it on your PC turn it on, if you watch it on a TV don't use it. However, it is also a matter of preference, like with filters. I

Pros to using it:
Will be progressive so it looks better on PC.
Also, you can use filters that only work on progressive material.
CCE will probably encode it better.

CONS:
Will degrade picture, possibly introduce artifacts.
Motion will not be as smooth on a TV: this may be very important with high action sports.
Increase encoding time.

wmansir,

How does this affect playback on a HDTV with progressive DVD player? I currently watch most movies on there, but sometimes when going to bed, I'll put a DVD on my 27" in the bedroom. You think I should go ahead and DECOMB at all times since my regular TV viewing is so limited to when I'm going to bed?

I thought I saw that for progressive playback on HDTV that DECOMB was recommended, but now I can't find where. Anyway, just looking for some feedback from those more experienced with the AviSynth filters. I'm still an AviSynth newb and have only used it during some DVD trailer loops I was creating. Great learning experience btw.

[wmansir]

unfortunately I have no experience with HDTV, but I think if you have a progressive scan DVD player with HDTV you should probably Deinterlaced, since it's a progressive display.

[SansGrip]

HDTV can be either progressive or interlaced. CBS uses, I believe, an interlaced signal at 1080i, while many other stations use 720p.

I think it depends on the individual set whether it displays interlaced as interlaced and progressive as progressive, or whether it does preprocessing to make it one or the other. I think I remember reading that my set converts everything to interlaced. Whatever it does, I never see any combing either on interlaced or progressive material.

I'd say if your source is interlaced, leave it that way. The only reason to deinterlace is if you're going to be watching the material mostly on a progressive display and it doesn't have any kind of built-in deinterlacer (or the built-in deinterlacer is poor).

[godhead]

Well Progressive DVD is output at 480p, but I haven't noticed any problems with backups I've currently done without DECOMB. So, I'll just stay with that until I get bored and experiment with an RW. Thanks for the feedback guys.

I love being able to convert 4:3 LB to 16:9. Screw the stupid payments rights for the special edition "Office Space" because I already have a 16:9 anamorphic backup thanks to RB! Thanks again JDobbs. There's been some great progress made with RB, so I might need to donate again.

[TheSeeker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by godhead
[B]Well Progressive DVD is output at 480p,


Well this all depends on your tv and dvd player. You can get tvs and dvd players both that will output at 720p maybe even 1080p now im not sure.

[mrslacker]

godhead, progressive scan dvd players output at 480p when progressive is turned on, as you know. Mine can be set to progressive FILM, progressive VIDEO, or progressive auto. Until HDVD (HD-DVD, or whatever they say now) is around, you won't be using any DVDs that have actual "HD" video on them, just progressive scan 480 (480p). I think that the TV manufacturers call that Enhanced Def, ED. I've seen players with DVI connections for HD, but the DVDs just won't need it.

As for deinterlacing with DECOMB, don't bother. Your progressive DVD player will have just fine deinterlacing. That's the point of buying a progressive scan DVD player as far as I know. I've seen comparisons of players online that explicitly evaluate their ability to deinterlace "combed" frames. Decent players will catch most of them and do their own deinterlacing. They're probably no better or worse than Decomb511.dll with its default detection thresholds. That's all Decomb does and like wmansir says, there are cons to doing it with software. I say leave the frames the way they were, besides the bitrate that is.

One observation about decombing VIDEO type sources with 3:2 pulldown pattern combing: If you step through an avs with FieldDeinterlace(), the "decombed" frames don't look that great. Maybe standalone progressive scan hardware is better at this, maybe not.

[mrslacker]

The background (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html)
The dvd player shootout (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html)

Look up your player (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi) and see how it does.

[Boulder]

Filtering interlaced material requires a bit more attention to prevent it from total destruction. Search for scharfis_brain's posts, he has explained a good method for dealing with them.

Basically it's this:


#Load the source here
AssumeTFF() # AssumeBFF() for bottom field first
KernelBob(7)
#Filter and resize here
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2) # SelectEvery(4,0,3) for bottom field first
Weave()
ConverttoYUY2(interlaced=true)

function kernelbob(clip a, int th)
{ ord = getparity(a) ? 1 : 0
f=a.kerneldeint(order=ord, sharp=true, twoway=false, threshold=th)
e=a.separatefields().trim(1,0).weave().kerneldeint(order=1-ord, sharp=true, twoway=false, threshold=th)
interleave(f,e).assumeframebased()
}


Note that you'll need Donald Graft's KernelDeint in your plugin folder as well since KernelBob() uses it.

[godhead]

Originally posted by mrslacker
The background (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html)
The dvd player shootout (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html)

Look up your player (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi) and see how it does.


HOLY CRAP!!!!

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=DVD+Player&manufacturer=21&maxprice=700&deInt=0&mpeg=0#PioneerDV-434


In all honestly, I thought the DVD player looked good on my TV (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4131_33338,00.html).
Guess it's time to look into better DVD players once my budget recovers from the digital SLR I plan to buy this year.

Thanks for that site and making me hate my player :D

[godhead]

Originally posted by mrslacker
The background (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html)
The dvd player shootout (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html)

Look up your player (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi) and see how it does.

OMG!!!!!! HOLY CRAP!!!!!

You just made me hate my player when I thought it looked pretty good.

Player (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=DVD+Player&manufacturer=21&maxprice=10000&deInt=0&mpeg=0#PioneerDV-434) that's hooked up to my HDTV (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4131_33338,00.html).

My crappy $70 bedroom player (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=DVD+Player&manufacturer=60&maxprice=10000&deInt=0&mpeg=0#TerapinTT-2600DVD) hooked up to my 27" Panasonic is much better.

Guess I need to play musical DVD players or soemthing.

[godhead]

Sorry about the double posts, the board seems to be acting funny with some error messages.