Advice for new analogue capture card

[lcksg]

Hi,

I am planning to purchase a good analogue capture card, please give feedback on which models are good choices.The main application will be capturing VHS/SVHS tapes (have hundreds of 'em in my school) via VirtualDub using huffyuv without dropped frames at full PAL/NTSC size (well..if it's possible).

Thanks

lcksg:)

[trevlac]

I'd buy the cheapest card I could find. PCI and at least a BT878 chip.

If you are in the US, here is one for $32 shipped.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=14-122-181&depa=0

Here are 76 comments on the card ... (I don't have one)

http://www.videohelp.com/capturecards.php?CaptureCardRead=136#comments


In order of importance for VHS:
1) The VCR you use
2) The software you use
3) The hardware (as long as it lets you use generic software)

[rfmmars]

As far as quality with no dropped frames I recogmend the ATI 9000 or 9600 AIW. I capture between 8000 to 10,000 bps I frames only in MPEG2 format, no dropped frames.

If you want .AVI capture, use Virtual VCR and Leadtool's Mjpeg codec which is $9.95 US. This is the fastest .avi codec around.

I can't agree with buying the cheapest card, I have tried them with software compresion, and the video is not good.

Also I don't recogmend Virtualdub for capture, because of dropped frames at full resolution.

I have three workstations in my video business and VHS transfer is a big part of it.

richard
www.photorecall.net

[trevlac]

Originally posted by rfmmars
I can't agree with buying the cheapest card, I have tried them with software compresion, and the video is not good.

Also I don't recogmend Virtualdub for capture, because of dropped frames at full resolution.


Ahhh but Iks wants to use Virtualdub, Huffyuv, etc.. In that case, an ATI is not the way to go. Cheap is.

Personally, if I was going to transfer 100's of VHS to DVD, I'd buy a standalone recorder or a DV capture device. This assumes that these are not macrovision protected .... Also, I would not consider this a 'fun' thing to do. Maybe for the 1st few, but not for the 50th. ;)


A parable :D

There once was a guy who thought the Tour de France looked cool. He got some books and some magazines. He went to a shop and got all the gear. A hybrid bike in case he did some off road. The fashionable clothes in case he saw a cafe. Unfortunately, he found that humping his way up and down ... at 5am ... the hills of his town ... was not really all that fun.

[jggimi]

Hello, lcksg, and welcome to the forum. (I know, you've been lurking here for 8 months, but this was your first post.)

This is why we have Rule 12, which states:...Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area....

[Wilbert]

Also I don't recogmend Virtualdub for capture, because of dropped frames at full resolution.
This depends on your hardware of course. If you have a fast pc, you will hardly have any dropped frames.

Ahhh but Iks wants to use Virtualdub, Huffyuv, etc.. In that case, an ATI is not the way to go. Cheap is.
ATI scalers are crap. Depending on which ATI you buy, you can't cap at arbitrary sizes.

If you want to use VDub, you shouldn't buy cx2388x (driver doesn't work correctly with wrapper). In that case, cards with bt8x8 or saa71xx are the best choise.

[rfmmars]

Well since I capture at 720x480 to put on DVD at 720x480, what do I care about scalers. Next is you can use VD with the ATI cards as long as you have the VDF2WDM wrapper.

Not hardly dropping no frames is not the same as NO DROPPED FRAMES!

VD does have frame dropping problems. Its drops frames even with my DC30 cards using 3.0 gig cpu. Switch to Virtual Vcr and no drop frames.

Cheap cards, cheap video.

richard

[Wilbert]

Well since I capture at 720x480 to put on DVD at 720x480, what do I care about scalers.
Even at 720x480 ATI's scaler is used.

VD does have frame dropping problems. Its drops frames even with my DC30 cards using 3.0 gig cpu.
I don't think dropping 10-20 frames an hour is really a problem. How many frame drops do you have?

Do you think ATI cards produce better video than bt8x8 cards?

[trevlac]

Perhaps jggimi was right. lcksg is a trouble maker. :D :D

[lcksg]

Thanks for all the replies :)

Allow me to shed more light to my setup and objectives

I work in a school where I'm tasked to convert all medias (VHS, CDs, VCDs, DVDs, audio tapes etc) in the media library for online streaming. The Quicktime Streaming solution does work but converting the contents is a lengthy process. I will get a fast workstation like this

Dual Xeon 3.6GHz 800MHz FSB (the new Nocona)
1x IDE HDD for WinXP
SATA RAID 0 (2x 76GB WD Raptors 10,000rpm) for temp. encoding workflow
1GB PC4400 DDR550
a normal AGP Video Card
on-board audio etc

I've been using ADVC-100 to convert VHS to DV and frameserving to VirtualDub using AviSynth. Avisynth+Virtualdub encoding a 3-pass DivX5 30mins clip takes 28hrs on my old P4 2.4GHz. Encoding speed is 2-4fps. Quality is not good as the VHS is recorded from sources that is very old (late '70s). I guess a lossless codec like HUFFYUV on S-Video from the VCR will allow me to improve/repair the quality of the encode via AviSynth+filters.

But I do need to capture it first as lossless. After reading the Analogue Capture guide (6.1 Capturing with VfW or WDM drivers, it's a great guide!!!) from doom9.org, I got more confused about the wrapper (VfW or WDM). It seems if I choose VirtualDub as the capturing/encoder app, it will have problems with both wrappers. Example, no problem-free native card driver for VfW to VirtualDub, although Hauppauge has VfW drivers for W2K and XP but they don't let you capture at full size.

WDM cards are more common but seems to have bigger problems, e.g can't capture with video and audio in sync, can't capture at full size using the VfWWDM wrapper, higher CPU loads while capturing, sound appears to be mono etc.

Also, are there any cards that will capture without compression? There are some VIVO AGP and TVTuner cards on the market but I couldn't find much info on the compression capabilities (most are MPEG-1/MPEG-2). If the capturing card compresses the videofeed, does it matter anymore if we choose HUFFYUV while capturing in VirtualDub?

I get the impression that the workflow/software/device must be chosen in the following order and each must be compatible with the choice after it:

1st Encoding Application (VirtualDub)
2nd Frameserver (Avisynth)
3rd save as AVI file
4th Capturing Application (lossless HUFFYUV at full size without drop frames)
5th Capturing Wrapper (VfW or WDM)
6th Capturing Device (S-Video input without compression)
7th Video Source (VCR over S-Video)

My problems are with items 6, 5, 4. Are there any workarounds for either VfW or WDM problems as mentioned above?

By the way, my encodes at 3-passes are necessary to get CBR of 1040MBps for video streams, this is to ensure network bandwith availability.

Appreciate any input. Thanks.

lcksg :)

[trevlac]

Originally posted by lcksg

Allow me to shed more light to my setup and objectives

Very nice ....

I've been using ADVC-100 to convert VHS to DV ... Quality is not good as the VHS is recorded from sources that is very old (late '70s). I guess a lossless codec like HUFFYUV on S-Video from the VCR will allow me to improve/repair the quality of the encode via AviSynth+filters.


For VHS, i'd expect the canopus to be fine. The 'resolution' of the VHS color is no-existant, so I really doubt that DV harms that. Also, i doubt that the DV compression is what makes your output bad.

Maybe you should look at what is wrong with your advc captures. IMO, Switching from a DV device to a 'huffyuv' device is not going to get you anything.

[rfmmars]

Wilbert...... What would a bad scaler do to my video capture. I don't see any problem in my captures. Using a DV source, my final DVD looks the same.

I think we all are trying to work for perfection, so when I started with my old 233 mhz AMD, the Pinnical capture software didn't drop frames until the data rate went above 4200. At that time a tried VD but its frame drop was too high.

I settled at that time on AVI I/O which didn't drop any frames anytime. Two years ago I bought my first ATI 8500DV. Using Mpeg2 capture there still wasn't any fropped frames up to 15,000 bps.

Wanting the option of .avi capture I installed the VDF2WDM wrapper with the new Mjpeg from Leadtools,and again at the higher data rate, VD dropped frames. Then I gave Virtual VCR a try, no dropped frames. I still use VD and Avisynth frame serving to my NLE, I couldn't live without them.

I take exception when someone says "use the cheapest card out there". In any product line there is only one that is best, and one that is the worst. All the others fall in bewtween. I am not saying ATI is the best, but it is at the higher point of the curve.

I have tried the other cards and have been disapointed. I will agree that ATI drivers and support stink, but it has the least artifacts of the cards that I have tried.

Hope you understand my position, I am not a know it all, and I do listen to other opinons.

richard

[trevlac]

Originally posted by rfmmars

I take exception when someone says "use the cheapest card out there". In any product line there is only one that is best, and one that is the worst. All the others fall in bewtween. I am not saying ATI is the best, but it is at the higher point of the curve.


I guess that was me. Let me explain my position. There is very little difference between the hardware when it comes to avi capture. A BT878 based card is more than capable for capturing full frame VHS. If you have s-video input, are not concerned about the tuner, and are talking audio via your sound card.

The real difference is in the software. This would include drivers. It is my understanding that with the newer ATI cards, you get a nice set of software, and that the cards support some sort of hardware assisted mpeg compression. So I am not saying that ATI is bad or not worth it.

BUT ... if you want to get your feet wet (as i incorrectly thought was lcksg's case) ... and you want to use virtualdub and huffyuv, no point in buying an ATI.

Here is my personal experience:

I have an AverTV card with a BT878a chip. I cost me around $30. I also have a Sony TRV900 dvcam. It cost me around $2000. There is zero visual difference in the analog to digital conversion of VHS source by these 2 devices.

-------------------

But back to the story ... I think lcksg should look more at what was wrong with the DV capture.

[rfmmars]

Thanks for your responce. What I remember was testing the same card with Mpeg2 capture, I may have skip any .AVI testing because the Mpeg2 quality was bad.

What we must keep in mind is how each person will use the product will be different. For my business, Mpeg2 is the only choice due to the quanity of work. For example some jobs are made up of 150 3 minute captures of old 8mm movie file.

Most will be needing clean up. So with a workstation with somewhere around 600 gig of HD space, it gets eaten up fast. Even if I captured DV.avi, I will need to add three times the HD space.

Let me ask you this, Forget the audio, I have 2 DC30 boards....are you saying that the BT878 based cards have equal video capture quality?

I hope what I have said makes it clearer about my posts.

thanks again,

richard

[Wilbert]

Wilbert...... What would a bad scaler do to my video capture. I don't see any problem in my captures. Using a DV source, my final DVD looks the same.
You should compare it with other cap devices. Compared to bt8x8 and saa71xx, It's similar as the difference between bicubic and bilinear.

I think we all are trying to work for perfection, so when I started with my old 233 mhz AMD, the Pinnical capture software didn't drop frames until the data rate went above 4200. At that time a tried VD but its frame drop was too high.

Wanting the option of .avi capture I installed the VDF2WDM wrapper with the new Mjpeg from Leadtools,and again at the higher data rate, VD dropped frames.
No wonder. A year ago I used an Athlon 1.2 GHz / W2K / Huffyuv, and I still had a significant number of dropped frames. Now I use a Athlon XP 3000+, and have no dropped frames.

I take exception when someone says "use the cheapest card out there". In any product line there is only one that is best, and one that is the worst. All the others fall in bewtween. I am not saying ATI is the best, but it is at the higher point of the curve.
Higher than bt8x8, cx2388x or saa71xx? Sorry, I don't believe that.

I have tried the other cards and have been disapointed. I will agree that ATI drivers and support stink, but it has the least artifacts of the cards that I have tried.
You are talking about artefacts here. I thought we were talking about quality above. Btw, what artefacts/cards are you referring to?

[FlimsyFeet]

Originally posted by rfmmars
Let me ask you this, Forget the audio, I have 2 DC30 boards....are you saying that the BT878 based cards have equal video capture quality? I got the impression that's what he was saying. Sorry if this is a dumb question, I know the DC30 includes a hardware MJPEG encoder, and comes with powerful editing software, but is there any significant difference in video quality?

I have a BT878 card and I'm not happy with the quality of my captures (I can capture with no dropped frames as long as there are no defects on the tape, but I always get some amount of ghosting and noise), but I think the poor quality is due to the VCR outputting composite not s-video.

DC30+ boards are available for £50 (about $90) with install discs only, i.e. without Adobe Premiere and Hollywood FX - would this be a worthwhile replacement for my BT878 card, assuming I get an SVHS VCR in the near future?

[trevlac]

Originally posted by rfmmars
What we must keep in mind is how each person will use the product will be different. For my business, Mpeg2 is the only choice due to the quanity of work. For example some jobs are made up of 150 3 minute captures of old 8mm movie file.

Absolutely ... my parable was really intended to point out that you really have to know what you are trying to do, and why.


Let me ask you this, Forget the audio, I have 2 DC30 boards....are you saying that the BT878 based cards have equal video capture quality?

I don't know much about DC30 boards. These are older mjpeg boards right? Don't they do hardware MJPEG? The BT boards don't compress. Here are some resolution pics from my AverTV.

First the test pic. It comes from the Avia Test DVD. I pulled it out using vdub and made a png with adobe.

http://trevlac.us/pics/Resolution1.png

We get resolution all the way up to 6.75MHz. Notice that some interference patterns are already in the test pic.

Next is a cap by the BT878 card, using s-video from a cheap dvd player. I probably capped with amcap as YUY2 with no compression.

http://trevlac.us/pics/712Full.png

The picture is darker. But the resolution is quite high. Close to 480TVLH or 640x480. If you read the BT spec sheet, it tells you where they filter, so this makes sense.

Finally a VHS PIC. The DVD was played via s-video into my jvc svhs machine and recorded to VHS SP. Then this was played back via s-video and captured with the BT the same way as the DVD capture.

http://trevlac.us/pics/VHS712.png

The purpose of this test was to show how bad VHS is and that the BT878 is more than capable of doing a good job with resolution. Notice that the Vertical resolution is full. AKA twice that of VCD. This is of course because there are always the same number of scan lines regardless of the bandwidth. The Horizontal is rotten. I'd call this somewhere less than 3MHZ. Probably 220TVLH.

[Wilbert]

but I always get some amount of ghosting and noise), but I think the poor quality is due to the VCR outputting composite not s-video.
Ghosting is not a result of that. Assuming you are a pal guy (I forgot if that's the case), it's due to messed up NTSC-PAL conversions. The main source of noise are the cables in the ground. Although, like Trev said, your VCR does degrade the quality very much like (low resolution, composite connection which results in chroma artefacts, etc.).

[Arachnotron]

Another factor often overlooked is driver support. With the BT878 you always can fall back on the BTWincap drivers, but for all other cards (long term) driver support can be quite important. Otherwise, your nice new device may not survive the next directX and/or service pack update by Microsoft...

I see that lcksg is also talking about S-VHS tapes. In that case the more subtle differences between cards may become more important.

But I do need to capture it first as lossless. After reading the Analogue Capture guide (6.1 Capturing with VfW or WDM drivers, it's a great guide!!!) from doom9.org, I got more confused about the wrapper (VfW or WDM). It seems if I choose VirtualDub as the capturing/encoder app, it will have problems with both wrappers. Example, no problem-free native card driver for VfW to VirtualDub, although Hauppauge has VfW drivers for W2K and XP but they don't let you capture at full size.

Both wrappers? There is only one. A vfw wrapper to enable capping from wdm drivers using vfw based capping programs. See this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=74999&referrerid=37956) thread.

Somebody probably already pointed this out, but if you have a lot of old tapes using either a S-VHS VCR with build-in TBC or an external capping device with integrated TBC might be a good idea too.