Looking for 60fps FILM source

[len0x]

Does anyone have 60fps source which is in fact 24fps film and can be converted to it via:

SelectEven()
Decimate(5)

Please PM me if you need space to upload it to. Thanks.

P.S. It's been a while since I was working on analysis of sources, may be its time to pick it up again :)

[neuron2]

http://neuron2.net/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=361

There is a file linked there. But see the thread to understand why it is problematic to convert as you describe.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I have an 800MB 720p @ 60fps file of the space shuttle launch. But I don't know if it started it's life from film.

It would be nice if there were more 720p 60fps clips about.


Cheers

[len0x]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I have an 800MB 720p @ 60fps file of the space shuttle launch. But I don't know if it started it's life from film.


I have it and its FILM but its not progressive source - it has to be properly IVTCed after SelectEven(). (although I might have 1080i version of it). Can you chop a small bit of it please ?

[len0x]

Originally posted by neuron2
There is a file linked there. But see the thread to understand why it is problematic to convert as you describe.

Getting it now, but I guess I can't really deal with it automatically like I was hoping to. I need more a pure FILM material (with repeated patterns).

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi len0x,

I have not got the tools on this PC to cut segments from Mpeg2's. I've got the whole lot burned onto an 800MB CD~R so I can mail it to you, if you PM me with an address.

I must admit I find these 720p 60fps streams rather intriguing. And would like to know how they start their life. Do they start as, 24fps film converted directly to 60fps 720p Mpeg2. Or do they start as, 24fps film converted to 30fps 1080i Mpeg2 to 60fps 720p Mpeg2?

I suppose creating 30fps interlaced HD material into 60fps progressive could be done by turning each interlaced field into a full frame but why do this, unless it's to provide backward compatibility for viewers who don't have progressive receiving equipment?

From what I have read, technically an 720p image should look better than 1080i image despite the fact each frame carries less pixels. But why use 60 frames and not 30frames to do it?

Can one of you guys shed some light?


Cheers

[lord_malebolgia]

:)

Hi you might try this, it works for me with the lotr1 1280x720 60p ts stream:

LoadPlugin("E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MPEGDecoder.dll")
LoadPlugin("E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\decomb521\decomb521.dll")
MPEGSource("Y:\!_Movies\absinth-tlotr.tfotra\absinthtlotr.tfotra.ts")
decimate(mode=0,cycle=2)
decimate(mode=0,cycle=5)

you get a nice 23,97 f/s stream

[len0x]

Originally posted by lord_malebolgia
:)

Hi you might try this, it works for me with the lotr1 1280x720 60p ts stream:


Where did you get the source from?

[lord_malebolgia]

:)

You can find it the newsgroups

you might want to use www.newzbin.com in order to find hdtv streams currently posted on usenet

Just search for "hdtv"

If you become a registered member you can find more and download the .nzb files for the newsbin usenetagent :D

I think currently tlotr can be found in a.b.hdtv

Beware, not all streams wich are posted there are ts or even 60 P you have to be lucky ;)

[len0x]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I have not got the tools on this PC to cut segments from Mpeg2's. I've got the whole lot burned onto an 800MB CD~R so I can mail it to you, if you PM me with an address.


Thanks for sending it to me. The source is a real progressive NTSC 30fps, I believe, shot on video. I don't see any duplicates there, so just SelectEven() works just fine. I was hoping to find something more challenging :)

@lord_malebolgia

For pure FILM sources there is no need to do decimate(2) as it supposed to be equvalent to SelectEven(), only slower.

[lord_malebolgia]

For pure FILM sources there is no need to do decimate(2) as it supposed to be equvalent to SelectEven(), only slower.

I tried selecteven(), the stream becomes very jerky.

I used:

selecteven()

wich produces a 29,97 f/s stream but in this stream I find duplicates frames wich are the source for the jerkyness


I used:

selecteven()
decimate(mode=0,cycle=5)

wich produces a 23,97 f/s stream wich is still jerky, the cause of this is also duplicate frames.

when i use

decimate(mode=0,cycle=2)
decimate(mode=0,cycle=5)

wich produces a 23,97 f/s stream witout any duplicates frames so this stream has no jerkyness at all.

the imortant thing is that i don't use normal decimate but mode=0 wich removes only duplicates. I used 2x decimate duplicates Because 1x would not remove all duplicates. This way works here because the original movie is 23,97 f/s and the ts-stream is a 59,97 f/s progressive stream wich wil reduced to its original framerate by just removing the duplicates.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by len0x
Thanks for sending it to me. The source is a real progressive NTSC 30fps, I believe, shot on video. I don't see any duplicates there, so just SelectEven() works just fine. I was hoping to find something more challenging :) You would think with so many of us on the forum someones bound to have (and send you) what you want!

I tried quite a few 'non-script' based applications to try and half the frame rate of the 720p clip, but to no avail.

Trying to get 720p 'film' sources accurately back to film speed is going to be quite a feat.

I'll keep an eye out for some more clip and post them to you if find them.


Cheers

[eb]

@ lenOx,
I converted the file that was mentioned by neuron2 above.
Using DVD2AVIT3 it was downsized to 640x360 from 1280x720 (to be able to playback on Athlon 2200+working 1794MHz and on GeForce 2 400mmx) but keeping frame rate at 60frames/s.Audio is orignal AC3 5.1.
VirtualDubMod was used to mux video and audio.
Convertion was done in 1-pass mode by 3ivx with bitrate 200x8.
No filters were used.
I am interested what is your opinion about it.

Sample mmmm.avi 1:22 (25MB) on:
ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl
user: www.eb.enterpol.pl
password : eb

eb

[lord_malebolgia]

Thanks for sending it to me. The source is a real progressive NTSC 30fps, I believe, shot on video. I don't see any duplicates there, so just SelectEven() works just fine. I was hoping to find something more challenging

I am going to make a 60 second sample 1280x720p 60f/s xvid 3000 kbs.
Afterwards I wil create a 23,976 sample from this stream.
My intend is to post both samples in "alt.binaries.hdtv".
the size of the post is about 50 mb. I wil "rar and par" those samples for saftey.
The header will be "ATTN:lenOx"
password for rar will be "lenOx"

Is it possible for you to get it there ?
Or do you have enough email space so i send it to you directly?

I have chosen this sample because of the smooth movement it contains.
With the avisynth script mentioned in my replies (59,976 -> 23,976) i get about 3 to 11 f/s with a P4 1.8Ghz

the reason for using xvid is it can be played in native resolution on the XBOX media center wich can give the HDTV component video-out in 720p. 1280x720 is also the native resolution of the beamer I use for watching movies. I can tell you watching this on the beamer changed my view on DVD....its time for HD-DVD :D

[len0x]

Originally posted by lord_malebolgia
I am going to make a 60 second sample 1280x720p 60f/s xvid 3000 kbs.
Afterwards I wil create a 23,976 sample from this stream.
My intend is to post both samples in "alt.binaries.hdtv".
the size of the post is about 50 mb. I wil "rar and par" those samples for saftey.
The header will be "ATTN:lenOx"
password for rar will be "lenOx"

Is it possible for you to get it there ?
Or do you have enough email space so i send it to you directly?


Can you make a bigger sample ~ 200Mb and upload to my ftp (I'll PM you with details)? Coz my analysis routine is running over 10% of the source, so the longer it is - the better.

@EB I'll grab you sources on Monday (I have no good internet connection on the weekends) and have a look as well.

[lord_malebolgia]

Can you make a bigger sample ~ 200Mb and upload to my ftp (I'll PM you with details)?

OK :)

my upload speed is 32Kbyte/s
so it might take a while :)

[Zep]

Originally posted by len0x
Thanks for sending it to me. The source is a real progressive NTSC 30fps, I believe, shot on video. I don't see any duplicates there, so just SelectEven() works just fine. I was hoping to find something more challenging :)


haha ask DG to send you the the 60 FPS 1280 x 720p I just sent him :)

Selecteven() will DESTROY it and Decimate(5) with nuke it even worse.
In fact DG has had to write a whole new decimate for these wacko patterns.

go read this thread for more info

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77798

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by len0x
Can you make a bigger sample ~ 200Mb and upload to my ftp (I'll PM you with details)? Coz my analysis routine is running over 10% of the source, so the longer it is - the better. I would not mind a copy of this too!

Can somebody PM me with download info please?


Cheers

[len0x]

Originally posted by Zep
go read this thread for more info


sounds interesting indeed!
It would help a lot to have universal Decimate. My problem though is not to find out how to decimate properly, but just if I need to decimate at all in automatic way (i.e. without looking at the source manually). That's why I'm looking for sources with dupes for analysis.

[len0x]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Can somebody PM me with download info please?


As soon as it gets uploaded - I'll contact you. So far I don't see anything going my way :)

[Zep]

Originally posted by len0x
sounds interesting indeed!
It would help a lot to have universal Decimate. My problem though is not to find out how to decimate properly, but just if I need to decimate at all in automatic way (i.e. without looking at the source manually). That's why I'm looking for sources with dupes for analysis.

yes and i say just use DG's new decimate filter on everything.
All you should need to do is pass a framerate. well that
is what I'm hoping for anyway :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by len0x
As soon as it gets uploaded - I'll contact you. So far I don't see anything going my way :) Thanks len0x

[len0x]

Originally posted by Zep
yes and i say just use DG's new decimate filter on everything.
All you should need to do is pass a framerate.

You still have to know the framerate. How do you distinguish between 30fps progressive and and 24fps FILM ?

[scharfis_brain]

@lenx: counting 10 frames:
if there are 5 unique frames inside: 30p
if there are 4 unique frames inside: 24p

[len0x]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain

if there are 5 unique frames inside: 30p
if there are 4 unique frames inside: 24p

Well, that's easy if you do that yourself, but not for automatic tool :) First you gotta find a moving scene and then look for dupes there (as in static everything will look as dupes)

Not that I don't know theory - its just implementation is quite far from it sometimes....

[scharfis_brain]

IMO, that problem is:

If you do some scripting in AVISynth, the framerate of the output is fixed by the script itself, IMO there is no way to alter that in a automated way.

the only solution would be do some kind of 2-pass.

1st pass: analyse patterns (maybe partial analysis should be sufficient)
2nd pass: build a script out of the analysis data and do the required decimation(s)

[len0x]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
1st pass: analyse patterns (maybe partial analysis should be sufficient)
2nd pass: build a script out of the analysis data and do the required decimation(s)

That's what I'm already doing for interlaced/hybrid sources in AutoGK. Now I plan to look at progressive 60fps ones :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

I still reckon in order to crack this problem we have to have a better understanding how these 60fps files are created in the first place.

As I said before, do they start as, 24fps film converted directly to 60fps 720p Mpeg2.

Or do they start as, 24fps film converted to 30fps 1080i Mpeg2 to a 'field split' 60fps 720p Mpeg2?


Cheers

[len0x]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
As I said before, do they start as, 24fps film converted directly to 60fps 720p Mpeg2.
Or do they start as, 24fps film converted to 30fps 1080i Mpeg2 to a 'field split' 60fps 720p Mpeg2?


It can be both I think. I have for instance famous sample logo.mpg which is 24 -> 30 (via telecine) -> 60 (via duplicate frames). But its not progressive though.

[len0x]

Originally posted by lord_malebolgia
I am going to make a 60 second sample 1280x720p 60f/s xvid 3000 kbs.
Afterwards I wil create a 23,976 sample from this stream.


There is a bit of misunderstanding here :) (mainly from me)
I thought you were gonna provide me with the source mpeg2/ts file for it. I can see xvid, but can't really play with it though...
Can you make ~200Mb source file and upload it to the same place, please?

[SeeMoreDigital]

It makes me wonder if there is any 60fps material that is truly progressive (in the conventional way).

The 24fps film frame shuffling process to progressive 30fps Mpeg2 is difficult enough. But going straight from 24fps film to progressive 60fps Mpeg2 is a bit mind blowing.

Do such encodes really exist. And if so, who's making them?


Cheers

[lord_malebolgia]

Can you make ~200Mb source file and upload it to the same place, please?

The reason why I made it xvid is I don"t know how to cut a TS stream properly, can I use a mpeg2 cuttingtool? And you get more movietime with less MB with Xvid.

The smallest stream I have is 2GIG's

By the way what did you think about my conversion to 23,976 ?

[len0x]

Originally posted by lord_malebolgia
The reason why I made it xvid is I don"t know how to cut a TS stream properly, can I use a mpeg2 cuttingtool? And you get more movietime with less MB with Xvid.


You can use ProjectX to cut&demux it - I just need video.
I can't analyse avi files unfortunately.

Originally posted by lord_malebolgia

By the way what did you think about my conversion to 23,976 ?

It's ok but not perfect. I don't know if better result can be achieved (wanna try new FDecimate on it but need source stream).

[guada]

That's something of good, beautiful program of work lord_malebolgia, ;) ;)
Long live the HD DVD.

Bye

[lord_malebolgia]

You can use ProjectX to cut&demux it - I just need video

I have some trouble compiling it, when I manage I wil upload the sample.