Sorenson H.264

[keel]

Sorenson Media, which makes reall nice codecs, is coming out with their own H.264

http://www.sorenson.com/press/press_release_full.php?pr_id=63

Sorenson makes the best QuickTime codec, Sorenson Video Pro 3, the one Apple uses in their pristine QuickTime movie trailers, and also makes the flv codec for Macromedia's Flash (not quite as nice, based on the older H.263 videconferencing codec). However, Sorenson Video Pro 3 was released three years ago, and is not very efficient (quality per data rate), and does not do well with movies over 480x360 or so.

Sorenson's H.264 is not supposed to ship till 3rd Q, but that starts only 3 weeks from now. Apple is supposed to be previewing or releasing an H.264 QuickTime codec at their Worldwide Developers Conference in late June, it's a good possibility they will use the Sorenson H.264.

Fun days ahead...

Frank

[bond]

cool, seems all the big players are adopting h.264

micro$oft will never do this tough (die m$! :D )
but when will real follow? ;)

Originally posted by keel
Apple is supposed to be previewing or releasing an H.264 QuickTime codec at their Worldwide Developers Conference in late June, it's a good possibility they will use the Sorenson H.264hopefully not. the more different codecs, the more fun for us users
ahh, i love open standards like mpeg-4, they move the power from the producers to the consumers :D

[bond]

some report about sorenson squeeze 4:
http://www.streamingmedia.com/article.asp?id=8698&page=1&c=3

if someone stumbles over this preview beta version give me a shout :D

[lexor]

Does anyone know if Sorenson actually write thier own versions of codecs or just integrates someone elses? From your posts it looks like they make their own, but they also support WMV9 (or VC-9, like it's hip to say) so did they write an Encoder for that themselves? Or they just slupped MS Encoder in for completness? And if they did that, that would cast a doubt on wheather or not they integrated someone else's encoder for other stuff.

[keel]

There's a demo available now of the Sorenson Squeeze Compression Suite, which includes new codecs: Sorenson AVC Pro (for MPEG-4 encoding) and Sorenson MPEG-4 Pro (for Visual Simple Profiles and Visual Profile encoding),

http://www.sorenson.com/misc/free_trial.php

Frank

[Sirber]

I'm not sure if H264 will become better and/or lower the CPU needed for it....

[stephanV]

and worth paying for... US $ 199? this is not for "everyday" users.

[superdump]

I don't know about you but I'm not providing my phone number to download it. I'd rather play with the upcoming Ateme beta.

[chilledoutuk]

i installed this and i was not that impressed at all with both the application and the avc codec.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I quite like the GUI of this new 4.0 version (http://squeeze.sorenson.com/corp/trials/SqueezeTrialInstall.exe)... Mind you 3.5's GUI wasn't bad either!


Cheers

[bond]

great news!

what options does the sorenson encoder provide, what container does it encode to?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
great news!

what options does the sorenson encoder provide, what container does it encode to? Option, options, options!

Here's what the GUI looks like: -

http://img34.exs.cx/img34/6105/SMD_Squeeze40_MainGUI.gif

And here's what you can do with AVC: -

http://img43.exs.cx/img43/7453/SMD_Squeeze4_AVCSettings.gif

As you can see it outputs .MP4 :D There's also 2pass encoding...

Sadly I can't watch the encodes I made because I haven't installed the necessary filters yet... any ideas?


Cheers

[easyfab]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital


Sadly I can't watch the encodes I made because I haven't installed the necessary filters yet... any ideas?


Cheers [/B]

Why don't you change the fourcc to H264 to test if ffdshow can decode it?
(mybe you must mux in avi or mkv to do this)

[stephanV]

is there anyway to open avs?

[LostMP4]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Option, options, options!

Sadly I can't watch the encodes I made because I haven't installed the necessary filters yet... any ideas?


Cheers

Latest Nero filters should decode H.264

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by easyfab
Why don't you change the fourcc to H264 to test if ffdshow can decode it?
(mybe you must mux in avi or mkv to do this) Tried this, but... I can't de-mux the video stream out of the .MP4 container :(

And while it's in the .MP4 container, Nero's DSdec filter tries to play it but fails!

I guess I had better install VideoLAN or some other 'stand-alone' player!


Cheers

[easyfab]

did you try with graphedit?

file source (async) -> 3ivx media splitter or another -> avi or mkv muxer -> file writer

then with mkvtool or avic change the fourcc

[Bulletproof]

Another broken H.264 encoder/decoder, it made me install quicktime and some microsoft product otherwise the encoder wouldn't install, after I encoded some files the files don't even decode, quicktime says error -8971.

[Bulletproof]

Originally posted by easyfab
did you try with graphedit?

file source (async) -> 3ivx media splitter or another -> avi or mkv muxer -> file writer

then with mkvtool or avic change the fourcc

Tried this and then tried using FFDShow to decode the file using "H264" FourCC, Windows Media Player just sits at 00:00 and it says Playing but never moves.

Also, the encoder supports .mp4 as a video source but says "File format not supported" on it's own encoded files. :rolleyes:

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
As you can see it outputs .MP4 :D There's also 2pass encoding...thats how a h.264 encoder is meant to be :D ;)

bond hides again

Sadly I can't watch the encodes I made because I haven't installed the necessary filters yet... any ideas?hm afaik the nero filters should handle h.264 in .mp4 already, additionally videolan should be able to play h.264 in .mp4 already too

the 3ivx splitter will not support it atm, it outputs the stream labelled as "avc1" if i remember it right, a fourcc which ffdshow already supports (as i asked milan to add it), so the two will be able to connect afaik, but apparently the 3ivx splitter doesnt do the stuff needed for handling h.264 streams in .mp4 to make this work

Originally posted by Bulletproof
Also, the encoder supports .mp4 as a video source but says "File format not supported" on it's own encoded files. :rolleyes: well i assume it doesnt include a h.264 decoder, but simply a asp one (as .mp4 can carry mpeg-4 asp (xvid, divx5, 3ivx...) streams too as i hope most people know already :D )

Originally posted by Bulletproof
Another broken H.264 encoder/decoder, it made me install quicktime and some microsoft product otherwise the encoder wouldn't install, after I encoded some files the files don't even decode, quicktime says error -8971.well thats the same. .mp4 is just a container, if the player handles the container (like qt) but not the video stream in it it will not work of course...
qt can decode .mp4 files with mpeg-4 sp and aac streams, but nothing else, including mp3 in mp4 (yeah a weak player, mainly useful for streaming)

[Bulletproof]

Originally posted by bond
hm afaik the nero filters should handle h.264 in .mp4 already, additionally videolan should be able to play h.264 in .mp4 already too


Haven't tried the NERO filters yet but you're right about VideoLAN it seems to be decoding it properly. :p :cool: :p

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Bulletproof
Haven't tried the NERO filters yet but you're right about VideoLAN it seems to be decoding it properly. :p :cool: :p Yes, VideoLAN does work... although in my case, the encode crashed after 10 seconds.

Also, I used an Mpeg2 source, which Sorenson Squeeze 4.0 doesn't seem to like (neither did Squeeze 3.5 for that matter) and as a result generates encodes that stutter!

If I have time tomorrow I'll try some DV.avi source files!


Cheers

[Bulletproof]

It seems if you enable B-frames it will always crash. The results from the Sorenson encoder seem pretty much the same as Mainconcept's, if not worse.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Bulletproof
It seems if you enable B-frames it will always crash. The results from the Sorenson encoder seem pretty much the same as Mainconcept's, if not worse. Well my encode tests were without B-VOP (I always test using the most basic features first). So I don't know why VLC crashed. :confused:


By-the-way, the direct-show filters that come with Squeeze 4.0 (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/Sorenson_MC_DSdec_filters.zip), appear to be an Sorenson/MainConcept mix!

Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
By-the-way, the direct-show filters that come with Squeeze 4.0 (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/Sorenson_MC_DSdec_filters.zip), appear to be an Sorenson/MainConcept mix!what do you mean with "mix"?
do the filters also decoder raw .264 streams, h.264 in .avi and .mpg next to .mp4?
is there a .mp4 splitter? if so, is it also able to handle normal mpeg-4 asp .mp4 files?

[stephanV]

i couldnt get it to encode... it only crashed. the GUI looks like crap if you ask me... also a lot of not very useful features as setting frame rate and resizing.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
what do you mean with "mix"?
do the filters also decoder raw .264 streams, h.264 in .avi and .mpg next to .mp4?
is there a .mp4 splitter? if so, is it also able to handle normal mpeg-4 asp .mp4 files? I have not tested the filter to see what it will decode yet.

However, I can confirm that the filters included in Sorenson Squeeze 4.0 are made by MainConcept: -

http://img47.exs.cx/img47/7009/SMD_Sorenson_MainConcept_DSdec.gif

And there is an Mpeg1/2 splitter!


Cheers

[bond]

interesting, did anyone try to play .mp4 files created by sorenson or atemes h.264 encoder with the sorenson/mainconcept dshow filters, i assume it will work

if it works, can someone plz try too to play the same avc .mp4 files with the new mainconcept preview decoder filters, maybe they handle .mp4 too already (the first preview didnt)

also it might be possible that the sorenson h.264 encoder is the same as the mainconcept one, but thats only speculation, but maybe someone can try to encode the same input with both encoders and compare the output, maybe its possible to get them to output the same streams (it might help to analyse them with the h264.exe tool from mpeg4ip)

[Bulletproof]

http://developer.mainconcept.com/partners/sorenson/sorenson.html

Although it doesn't say H.264 there, it is very likely that they are using Mainconcept's implementation.

[RBF]

I make playing-test of Sorenson AVC files

1 minute of video without audio.

File - SorensonAVC.mp4 without B frames

VLC 0.7.2 - has failed after 20 seconds of playing
VLC 0.7.3 beta - plays well
nero mp4 splitter/decoder - does not play
3ivxsplitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play

File - SorensonAVC.mp4 with B frames

VLC 0.7.2 - does not play
VLC 0.7.3 beta - does not play
nero mp4 splitter/decoder - does not play
3ivx/splitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play

File - SorensonAVC.mpg (TS) with B frames (remux from mp4 with VLC 0.7.2)

mainconceptsplitter/mainconceptDemoH264decoder - plays well

File - SorensonAVC.avi without B frames (remux from mp4 with VLC 0.7.2) probably damaged avi-file.

VLC 0.7.2 - does not play
M$avi_splitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play
VDUBMOD_splitter/Ffdshow decoder - plays only frame by frame.

File - SorensonAVC.avi with B frames (remux from mp4 with VLC 0.7.2) probably damaged avi-file.

VLC 0.7.2 - does not play
M$avi_splitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play
VDUBMOD_splitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play

File - SorensonAVC.mkv without B frames (remux from damaged avi with VDUBMOD).

VLC 0.7.2 - does not play
matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - plays well
VDUBMOD_matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - plays well
matroskasplitter/NeroVideo decoder - plays well

File - SorensonAVC.mkv with B frames (remux from damaged avi with VDUBMOD).

matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play
VDUBMOD_matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play
matroskasplitter/NeroVideo decoder - plays only the first 20 seconds (probably from for the damaged file).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorenson MP4 file with H264(AVC1) content-->Nero Digital Muxer-->Nero Digital File Writer - connect, but does not work (return code: 0x80040212).
Sorenson MP4 file with MP4v content-->Nero Digital Muxer-->Nero Digital File Writer - work.

[rollow]

Been testing the trial SQ 4.0 all day with 360 kb/frame Media 100 HDR source to Sor AVC, and am not convinced. On OSX, VLC 072 plays most anything I throw at it, but SQ encoding results are unpredictable and not very impressive :/ Also, encoding higher bitrates is a painfully slow process. (G5 dual 1.8 w. 4GB RAM)

[robUx4]

Interresting test matrix. But :

Originally posted by RBF
File - SorensonAVC.mkv with B frames (remux from damaged avi with VDUBMOD).[/B]

How do you expect something to support B frames if the source comes from a container that doesn't support B frames ?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by RBF
File - SorensonAVC.mkv without B frames (remux from damaged avi with VDUBMOD).

VLC 0.7.2 - does not play
matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - plays well
VDUBMOD_matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - plays well
matroskasplitter/NeroVideo decoder - plays well

File - SorensonAVC.mkv with B frames (remux from damaged avi with VDUBMOD).

matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play
VDUBMOD_matroskasplitter/Ffdshow decoder - does not play
matroskasplitter/NeroVideo decoder - plays only the first 20 seconds (probably from for the damaged file).

Just in case you didnt know, these MKVs will be using the codec ID

'V_MS/VFW/FOURCC'

and be so called 'VfW/DShow compatibility mode' files. We have a rought draft on how to put h.264 into MKV natively, including NALUs, but of course no proper support for this right now in any of the tools ....

[RBF]

Originally posted by robUx4
How do you expect something to support B frames if the source comes from a container that doesn't support B frames ?

I know, avi does not support B frames
But it was actually not avi file, and a certain mutant-file, which does not open anything, except for VDUBMOD,
I used this way, whether only that can check up x264decoder and NeroVideoDecoder to decode H264 stream with B frames.
As nero MP4 demuxer has not wanted to split this mp4 file, I used this perverted way.

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Just in case you didnt know, these MKVs will be using the codec ID
'V_MS/VFW/FOURCC'

Yes I know that.
The unique purpose was to find a way to put H264 from MP4 into MKV.

[bond]

rollow, in the future plz post your messages about a topic in active threads already existing about this topic and dont start a new thread

[rollow]

typical newbie error...I hit the wrong button. won't happen again.

[bond]

no problem, welcome to doom9 :)

[acidsex]

Personally, I think the Sorenson offering is a bunch of crap. Its awfully slow regardless of what you are encoding. AVC H264 is definitely not worth the encode time and the Mpeg-4 Pro isnt all that great. Actually, I think Mpeg-4 worked better in 3.5 than it does in 4.

The interface while it looks nice at first could have been better.

Think Ill wait for Nero's H264. Its pretty shcoking with all of these H264 codecs, I have yet to see one that offers decent results.

The one sample that bobolo provided was awesome. Heres hoping the beta produces better results than Sorenson.

[stephanV]

Originally posted by acidsex
The one sample that bobolo provided was awesome. Heres hoping the beta produces better results than Sorenson.

Most promotional samples will look awesome (thats why they are promotional), its a pitty the codec usually stink... :angry:

[rollow]

Have been a betatester of sorenson codec and, later on, squeeze, in the past, and know the dev team used to be very serious about taking products to market. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. I don't like the workflow in squeeze at all, and (in osx) the trial app crashes randomly.
Sorenson 3 codec typically only produces excellent results if one knows exactly how to find the sweet spot in custom settings, reason why I am still trying to find that same sweet spot in the new H264 codec encoding settings. Seems to me you can't fake a codec showcase.

[bobololo]

Originally posted by stephanV
Most promotional samples will look awesome (thats why they are promotional), its a pitty the codec usually stink... :angry:
You're right, our encoder really stinks ;)

[stephanV]

i dont know... we'll have to see that right :p

(H.264 was one big dissapointment till now, i hope you change that, seriously)

[Sirber]

I agree with StephanV, H264 is slow and low quality at current state.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Sirber
I agree with StephanV, H264 is slow and low quality at current state.
I'm not claiming that any of these are totally optimal encodes, but I don't think it can be said that Ateme h264 (beta) is clearly lower quality, and the encoding speed is decent.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/stuff/OutOfTime_Ateme-h264_300kbps_inloop2.mp4
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/stuff/OutOfTime_WM9.wmv
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/stuff/OutOfTime_Real10.rmvb

[stephanV]

well... my comments excluded the ateme as that is a new one. Unfortunately, VLC player doesnt want to play the MP4 so i cant really comment. (and i am not gonna make a mess out of my system by installing nero, sorry)

i will just have to wait and see then :)

[JohnV]

Originally posted by stephanV
well... my comments excluded the ateme as that is a new one. Unfortunately, VLC player doesnt want to play the MP4 so i cant really comment. (and i am not gonna make a mess out of my system by installing nero, sorry)

i will just have to wait and see then :) Well, my system is in no way messed up even though I have Nero packages installed. Your loss then I guess. :p

[stephanV]

i was refering to threads as these (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=539444#post539444)

interoperatebility of mp4 is not as good as it could be and the nature of directshow then turns it into one big mess. I dont wanna spend my time looking for the right combinations of filters to decode a movie, when in principle any mpeg4 filter should do. im not saying its necessarily Nero's fault but they do seem to install a whole lot of filters. for me, directshow and MP4 currently is a nono. (but i dont use mp4 anyway...)

anyway, back to sorensen H264 now :)

[bond]

videolan doesnt handle b-frames (as any ffmpeg based implementation), the rest should, to my knowledge, work

[RBF]

Earlier I informed on problems at playing SorensonH264.mp4 through Nero Splitter/Decoder. Now through last Ateme MPEG-4 AVÑ beta Splitter/Decoder all files (including files with B frames) are played well.

[bond]

by analysing the samples offered by heise (http://www.heise.de/ct/05/10/146/testsequenzen.shtml), it seems sorenson continued the work on their avc encoder and it now supports some more goodies:

- more than 1 b-frames (2 to be concrete it seems)
- b-frames as references (as currently only supported by x264 and the reference)
- multiple slices

edit: still no cabac and multiple reference frames

[guada 2]

Hello,

Afflicted to disappoint you, this software does not date today.
Look at a little here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=91648&highlight=sorenson+avc+vs+Nero+avc

Goodbye