World's First Nero Digital Enabled CE Devices

[bobololo]

For those who can't wait for MP4 support in their standalone, just check this link :

http://www.ahead.de/en/632219481658784.html

-- bobololo

[bond]

do i need to say more :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Is this the same sort of info that JohnV talked about in another section of the forum?

"Latest news is that Sigma Designs will support Nero Digital in hardware"
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/newsarticle.asp?guid=%7B79CB4204-E399-410A-99FE-A3FCA11805F7%7D&siteid=mktw&dist=nbs&symb=

If so, the links changed. But at last, some real movement!


Cheers

[CruNcher]

hehe i think Mediatek will also support the Mp4 container and AAC soon :) or at least the some centurys ago announced OGM support :P

[Doom9]

The press release mentions the 85xx series.. that's Sigma's "old" product line upon which the first generation of DivX capable DVD players was based. They can't handle DivX3 properly, and QPel/GMC and multiple B-frames is a nogo.

Personally I'm much more interested in the 8620L chip (and why oh why did Sigma still not include GMC?): http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/em8620Lseries.htm
That one does QPel, and can handle HDTV resolutions (and WMV9 but I don't particularly care about that).

[SeeMoreDigital]

The EM85xx Sigma chipsets will most probably be either the, 8510 or 8511. Which are actually 'new chipsets'.

Key Freaures: -
Low power ideal for portable applications.
Supports DVD-Video, Superbit™ DVD, DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW, SVCD, VCD, CD/-R/-RW and Picture CD (JPEG) media formats.
MPEG-1, MPEG-2 MP@ML, MPEG-4 ASP@L5* video decoding.
Audio DSP supports Dolby® Digital, MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 Layers I, II and III (MP3), MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 AAC-LC and Windows Media® Audio (WMA) decoding.
Embedded RISC to run system software and navigation.
Integrated IDE (ATA/ATAPI-6) and DVD loader interface supports a wide variety of DVD loaders.

*without support for 1/4 pixel (QPEL) and global motion compensation (GMC)Here's what one of Sigma's developement kits looks like: -

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/graphics/product_pics/PVP8510.JPG (http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/PVP8510.htm)



Sigma's other 'older' 85xx chipsets, 8500/8501, don't support AAC audio decoding.

Key Features: -
Supports MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 over IP.
Supports DVD-Video, Superbit™ DVD, DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW (conditional), SVCD, VCD, Picture CD, CD/CD-R/CD-RW (audio, WMA, DivX™*, MP3, JPEG and MPEG-4 files) media formats.
MPEG-1, MPEG-2 MP@ML, MPEG-4 ASP@L5** video decoding.
Dolby Digital, MPEG-1 Layers I, II and III (MP3) and Windows Media® Audio (WMA) audio decoding.
Embedded RISC to run system software and applications.
Integrated IDE (ATA/ATAPI-4) and DVD loader interface supports a wide variety of DVD loaders, DVD drives, HDDs and CompactFlash.
Local Bus for interfacing to external MPEG encoder and networking chips.


*DivX™ version 3.11, 4.x and 5.x files on CD (ISO 9660 format) may be played. Maximum supported resolution is 720x576 (352x288 for v3.11) without the ¼ pixel (QPEL) option.

**without 1/4 pixel and global motion compensation

Cheers

[Doom9]

Which are actually 'new chipsets'.Well.. if you want to call MPEG-4 ASP@L5* video decoding.
*without support for 1/4 pixel (QPEL) and global motion compensation (GMC)new, be my guest. I call that a first generation chipset. I'd trade in AAC and MP4 playback in a heartbeat for a chip that can handle QPel, 3 point GMC, multiple b-frames and that doesn't start to stutter at higher bitrates and divx3 videos.

And as you've certainly noticed, AAC-HE is not supported, neither is the upcoming parametric AAC that ND should have soon.

This "new" chipset could lead to what we had in the DivX area.. players that have a very limited usability. It's sad to see that the same mistakes are being made again, especially since there are now chipsets that would reduce the amount of problems considerably (they still lack GMC and AAC-HE but at least the rest is here, plus you get higher resolutions as well)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Doom9
...I'd trade in AAC and MP4 playback in a heartbeat for a chip that can handle QPel, 3 point GMC, multiple b-frames and that doesn't start to stutter at higher bitrates and divx3 videos.

And as you've certainly noticed, AAC-HE is not supported, neither is the upcoming parametric AAC that ND should have soon... Yes I find Sigma's new chipset design specification rather bizarre too. For all the reasons you mentioned (except AAC and MP4 playback of course ;)).

I had always assumed that Sigma's weak 1 warp-point GMC implementation was due to their love affair with all things DivX. But now they've buddied up with Nero... I'm rather confused.

Maybe there will be room for improvement via future firmware updates. At least Nero (Ateme) is not afraid to keep tweaking the technology and come up with new implementations.

I'm quite excited by it all really.

[bond]

maybe its simply a typo OR sigma designs simply decided to support MP4 (and AAC too maybe) on all their firmwares
at least MP4 itself is license free and if they already developed support for it on one of their firmwares, its maybe not much hassle to add it to old chips firmwares too

about LC/HE-AAC, afaik its cheaper to only license MPEG-2 AAC, which is basically exactly the same as LC-AAC in MPEG-4, but of course it excludes advanced MPEG-4 features, like SBR (as used in "HE-AAC") or PS
if you license MPEG-4 + the advanced features, it gets far more expensive, but LC-AAC on its own is already very good and far better than AC3 for multichannel for example already

i assume support for HE-AAC is the same situation as QPEL in the beginning, it will only be added if the users ask for it very often

[bobololo]

Originally posted by Doom9
The press release mentions the 85xx series.. that's Sigma's "old" product line upon which the first generation of DivX capable DVD players was based. They can't handle DivX3 properly, and QPel/GMC and multiple B-frames is a nogo.

I think you can read it as "starting from 85xx series and later chips". This means even people who own old generation standalones will also benefit from ND features by a firmware update.

Actually what is really interesting is that currently most chips could already support ND from a technical point of view.

-- bobololo

[SeeMoreDigital]

I would not worry too much about Sigma's chipset not 'specifying' AAC-HE playback. It's not like AAC-HE won't work!

If the new chipsets are anything like my old EM8475 chipset, AAC-HE playback sounds fine. I can hear no diffences between AAC-HE and AAC-LC streams at say 96kbps. And AAC-HE streams below 96kbps sound way better than AAC-LC.

There's certainly none of the obvious differences you here when playing low bitrate Mp3pro streams on an Mp3 only device!


Cheers

[Doom9]

support in the Sigma EM85xx platform for next-generation DVD players and consumer electronics products.is the original wording... no word on future chipset, and more importantly, no word on the 8620L, which is what I think will be the next big chipset for upcoming MPEG-4 compatible DVD players.

[bond]

Originally posted by Doom9
is the original wording... no word on future chipset, and more importantly, no word on the 8620L, which is what I think will be the next big chipset for upcoming MPEG-4 compatible DVD players. it was already announced from kiss representatives that their new player (using the new sigma chip) will handle nerodigital encodes, including .mp4

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes, bond and I discussed this very issue (plus some others (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=498742#post498742)) with thekid, one of the DivX guys.

We posted quite a few links for him to read... but he never did come back to confirm all our points... I guess we must have frightened him away!


Cheers

[bond]

hm on hydrogenaudio it was said that nerodigital will also create private mpeg-4 profiles a dxn did

now i only hope that they will not simply be clones of the divx ones, excluding advanced features like qpel, gmc and custom matrices :(

[zag2me]

The 85xx chipsets are constantly evolving over time they started with revision "A" but have been upgraded over time. Dont make the mistake of thinking that it is an "old" chipset that has not been improved. Even though it was one of the first to be released.

[bond]

Originally posted by zag2me
The 85xx chipsets are constantly evolving over time they started with revision "A" but have been upgraded over time. Dont make the mistake of thinking that it is an "old" chipset that has not been improved. Even though it was one of the first to be released.ok, but did it got better in a way that it supports more mpeg-4 advanced simple profile features now, inlcuding qpel, gmc, custom matrices aso...?

[SeeMoreDigital]

It would seem that the 'new' 8510 or 8511 chip-sets are intended primarily for portable use via small displays.

So I guess 3 warp point GMC and Qpel would consume more power due to the increased amount of number crunching involved.


Cheers

[zag2me]

Originally posted by bond
ok, but did it got better in a way that it supports more mpeg-4 advanced simple profile features now, inlcuding qpel, gmc, custom matrices aso...?

A good point, no it wont include additional features as far as im aware. The latest revisions have better support for low khz audio and support for hard disks in players.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes, I suppose it would be helpful to get the 'low-down' on exactly what both the 'new' EM8510/11 and EM8620L/21L chip-sets can do!

I can't understand why Sigma don't issue up to date spec reports. As Doom9 (and others) have already pointed out the inconsistencies regarding Sigma's own (undated) information.

Personally I would not mind if the specs changed slightly 'every week' as long as it was 'official' and we knew where to find the reports...


Cheers