Double Layer Media - Compatibility?

[SLA]

I am very interested in buying a dl-burner. But i have hardly seen any test how good this media are compatible with existing drives. Most tests only used "DVD+R DL" as Booktype which seems to cause a lot of trouble with dvd-rom drives and dvd burner like only reading layer 0 etc. Does it work better when using "DVD-Rom" as Booktype? and will this media play on Standalone DVD-Players?

[Joergen]

Seems like many shops are now adding the Verbatim DL disc to their menus and expecting shipment. I guess we'll find the truth of the matter when some independent users get testing.

For the first time I'm sad that Pioneer/DVD-R has the rights to the DVD-ROM booktype. I wouldhave wanted a hassle-free and fully compatible DL disc for the masses now, not a year from now.

Exciting times no doubt.

[jsl]

Originally posted by Joergen

For the first time I'm sad that Pioneer/DVD-R has the rights to the DVD-ROM booktype.

DVD-R doesn't use DVD-ROM "book type"...

SLA: C't performed a test in issue 11 with +R DL vs. DVD-ROM book type , it's summarized here (http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=111964#111964).

[alexnoe]

Just one thing:

Philips released a b0rked standard. The minimum allowed reflexivity is, according to the C'T, only 16% for DVD+R DL (whereas 18% is required for DVD-9, per definition).

While Verbatim is nice enough to make proper media (which 18,x% reflexivity, like DVD-9), other manufacturers trying to make DVD+R DL media might not be that nice, and might make discs which don't run in some DVD-ROMs just because of the lower reflexivity, even if they are compliant to DVD+R DL. So Princo can now make crappy discs without violating the standard....

That means, it is possible that some drives run with Verbatim DVD+R DL media, but not with others...

[Doom9]

So Princo can now make crappy discs without violating the standard....Hmm.. I thought Princo made crappy media no matter what :devil:

[SLA]

Thank you jsl for the link, it's very interesting. A good point is that more than 90% of standalones were able to read the disc(s), but i think the results for DVD-Rom drives are extremely bad. 65% is far not enough in my opinion. Also interesting that none of the standalone-dvd-recorder recognized a disc with booktype "+R DL" but with the other type it was 85%. If i remember correctly i read on heise.de that the used media was pre-production (also the burner was) maybe there are better results with the retail package (but i don't really believe this :D).

[Joergen]

Originally posted by jsl
DVD-R doesn't use DVD-ROM "book type"...


Always a "fan boy" out there taking a bite out of anything remotely against +R. A closed DVD-R is recognised as a DVD-ROM by default.

I was wondering why it is taking the -R camp so long to introduce their DL product. I'd suspect that they are waiting for +DL to test the market and force firmware upgrades on hardware by popular demand. +DL will take a beating for varying compatibility, and by the time -DL appears hadware will be better equipped to handle it.

Sneaky b*stards those Pioneer folks.

[alexnoe]

Usually, you can't take dvd+ owners seriously, but jsl is absolutely right: A DVD-R uses the booktype 'DVD-R', and nothing else.

As 'DVD-R' has been specified at the same type as DVD-ROM, every player knows the booktype, but a few philips player use this fact to blacklist DVD- (the only valid reason for not recognising DVD- discs, BTW).

[Joergen]

alexnoe: thanks for the insight.

I've noticed that Panasonic and Pioneer players also tend not to mention + media at all in their manuals under compatibility ;)

Then again Pioneer was the first of the two (Philips being the other) to produce a dual format burner. While the middle-man Sony was the one to do it first.

But like I always say, its good to have competition and the sooner the DL market gets competition the sooner the prices come down and compatibility goes up.

I asked a retailer for a quote on Verbatim +DL pricing and the answer was "as high as 15 USD".. DOH!

[SLA]

Originally posted by Joergen
alexnoe: thanks for the insight.

I've noticed that Panasonic and Pioneer players also tend not to mention + media at all in their manuals under compatibility ;)

Then again Pioneer was the first of the two (Philips being the other) to produce a dual format burner. While the middle-man Sony was the one to do it first.

But like I always say, its good to have competition and the sooner the DL market gets competition the sooner the prices come down and compatibility goes up.

I asked a retailer for a quote on Verbatim +DL pricing and the answer was "as high as 15 USD".. DOH!

Competition is VERY important.
Without +r we still had to stick with 2x media :rolleyes: :D They were always first who introduced higher burn rates.

I saw some Verbatim +R DL on a online shop for ~5-6€ each.

[atreides93]

It will be interesting to see what DL disks will do to the price of single layer disks. Will it make them cheaper? OR maybe they'll go back up if manufacturers reduce production in order to produce the newer DL disks? Ugh... i hope not..I'm quite happy right now with my 4.7 gig disks...I'm not all that excited about dual layer if it means it only works on some players...

[alexnoe]

It will cause the prices to increase. The copyright mafia will certainly find a way to increase the taxes on blank discs ;)

[Tiamat]

heh, sorry to jump in, but I've got to :) Dual layer could seriously piss of the copyright mafia (not that we don't do a good job of that already :devil: ) and not only put thier effort to steal our right into overdrive, but help them put forward special taxes... remember when tapes got that treatment. I don't know what philosophies people buy into, but I'm a big on having as much freedom as possible and the forward development of technologies and konwledge... so I have no doubt that our favorite industries will do whatever they can to attack both of those.

Any progress like that of DL makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, it's just a shame that it could come at the price of some freedom. Frankly, dual layer has the capacity to make DVD piracy (NOT backups) too easy and too many people could start doing it, leaving the people who do this legit out in the cold. When dells start comming with DL burners I think we'll see the media take a jump in price.

[Carlos Garcia]

I disagree. I think they always come out with new formats, and this is why we won't see a jump in media price. Let's face it, do people still copy VHS onto VHS? Once the industry starts releasing HD DVD movies, the public will want HD DVD burners, and that would make both single and dual-layered DVD+Rs as older technology. Then Hollywood will concentrate their anger on the HD DVD format and forget about DVD+R/DL just as they did VHS...that is, until another technology comes along that puts HD DVD in the dust...Technology will always make another format obsolete.

[Joergen]

Carlos, you forget that HDTV is only for north america. The EU countries are not planning on any sort of HDTV transmissions in the forseeable future. Instead the Digital TV (DVB) transmissions and 16:9 TV's and content will become standard.

The current DVD standard is good enough for the PAL TV system which has about 100 lines more resolution than its NTSC counterpart and better colour signaling via RGB scart.

So unless hollywood wants to stop selling movies for the 470 million people in the EU alone, HD-DVD is not going to be on the market alone.

Although I have to add that Plasma and LCD screens will blend the HDTV and PAL market in the near future, as they will support the HDTV standard aswell, but that will only apply to a very small minority of users for the next 20 years.

I would predict that DVD will be like the audio CD, no other laser disc format will undo it when there is no need to (CD music is good enough for your normal speakers, and DVD quality is good enough for your normal TV).

[Tiamat]

This is REALLY unrelated, but I was thinking that the next format might be nanodrives... no more lasers just 20cm x 20cm disks that hold a 100GB or so. Just a random thought though :)

[Joergen]

Hehe, 20x20cm that holds 100GB? That's so 5 years ago :D
20x20mm and 100GB would be better, and might not be that far off. The latest flash drives hold 20GB and arent much bigger.

[SciFer]

I'm still waiting for Pioneer, I'm sure they'll be worth the wait. They'll have less problems due to stability/consistency. Once everyone experiences how kaotic the +R DL will be, they be happy to find reliability. Which is why I think they haven't released it yet. I think they want to work out the bugs so that there won't be any disappointments, even if takes longer. The +R DL camp just wanted to be the 1st out with DL technology on the market, which they are but at what long term cost? Time will tell..;)

[windtrader]

It will be interesting to see what DL disks will do to the price of single layer disks. Will it make them cheaper?
Look at other media formats like CDs, VHS, cassettes - the price will continue to drop as margins and production costs shrink to the lowest possible that anyone with capability will make the product and still turn a profit. How long it stays around and cheap depends on volume as it is fully comoditized. There are a LOT of 2x,4x,8x DVD-R burners around that will be in service for some time to come thus dirt cheap prices.

The main reason for the demise of the current single layer technology will be the significant price drop resulting from the mainstreaming of the dual layer products: players and media. Currently this should occur in the coming 18 months. Second will be increase in replacing failing single layer product but this will not peak for a couple of years. So we are 18-24 months out before the major shift crosses over the dual layer.

Of course, the wild card in all this is the parallel growth and demand of media and players for recording HD material. As HD sales continue to ramp up, the obvious demand to record HD material will follow and drive the market to deliver the next generation.

This keeps all the DRM bitchers happpy as it gives them another whack at slowing priacy and unauthorized use of their IP. It also makes the greedy bastards happy as they can turn their catalogs over yet once again and ring the registers by releasing on the HD format. So, who knows, maybe 3-5 years from now, well be using DVD+- as much as we use CDs today. Didn't take long did it guys? :D

[Carlos Garcia]

Originally posted by windtrader
Second will be increase in replacing failing single layer product but this will not peak for a couple of years.

What about those who burned quality discs like Verbatim? Those discs are guaranteed for the rest of our lifetime. I think if the industry is waiting for DVD-Rs to fail in order to fatten their wallets, they may have a much longer wait than 24 months. I've been burning DVDs for 4 years now and still haven't come across a single disc that I burned, which now fails. I think the industry will want to phase all us single-layer burners to the dual-layer recordable market...that's where the money will be...until the next technology comes in :)

[Joergen]

I trust one of the the only companies waiting for discs to fail is Princo, and THEIR discs are failing. I hope they go out of business.

Anyway, I've always used Ritek products and from what I've tested the ~2year old riteks, they havent faltered. While some folks report their Princo's failing after 3-6 months.

[windtrader]

I think the industry will want to phase all us single-layer burners to the dual-layer recordable market...that's where the money will be...until the next technology comes in We are saying the same thing. I mean single layer product = single layer PLAYER/BURNER

[Video Dude]

Originally posted by Carlos Garcia
What about those who burned quality discs like Verbatim? Those discs are guaranteed for the rest of our lifetime.
It does not mean our lifetime. The lifetime refers to the life of the disc. If you read the fine print it is a limited lifetime guarantee. So if you burn the disc and it goes bad next year, don't expect them to replace it. It will be considered defective because of normal wear and tear, which is not covered under the warranty. However, if you buy a pack of discs and they are bad or defective from the start, then they will replace it.

http://www.verbatim.com/documents/5168_VLLWarranty_052104sb.pdf


In general with no specific brand mentioned:
Most companies claim a disc will last 30 to 100 years.
In reality (after reading horror stories on this forum and others) discs can fail in as little as 6 months.

[Carlos Garcia]

Originally posted by Video Dude
It does not mean our lifetime. The lifetime refers to the life of the disc.

Well doesn't that mean as long as the disc exists? What constitutes the lifetime of a disc? I thought it meant as long as you have that disc, and you haven't scratched it, or exposed it to sunlight (abused it), the disc should be guaranteed to work properly, and if not, they would replace it.

[Video Dude]

My answer reflects all brands in general, not one specific company.
Also keep in mind I am not giving any sort of legal advice nor do I work for a media company.

Well doesn't that mean as long as the disc exists?
The plastic disc can exist well over 250 years.


What constitutes the lifetime of a disc?
The amount of time it takes for the recording dye to degrade, most companies claim up to 20-100 years. (Pay special attention to the term "up to", notice they don't use "at least".
There is a big difference beween "up to 20 years" and "at least 20 years".
Remember that blanks use dye and commercial discs use pressed metal. Pressed discs will last well over 100 years, but blanks use dye which are organic. Everything organic is guaranteed to degrade, be it 1 year, 20 years, or 50 years (one of the sad facts of life). Blanks will eventually fail after a number of years even if you never take them out of the packaging.

The warranty will cover limited circumstances. If you buy a package of discs and they are defective they will be replaced. *Some* companies will even replace the disc if it fails within 3 months. But if you have a disc for say 6 or 7 years and then suddenly it goes bad, don't expect to get a replaced disc or a refund. If you play the disc in your player, that constitutes "normal wear and tear" which the warranty very clearly states is not covered.


Some companies are nice, and may replace a couple discs if they fail after a long period of time. But if you call them up and say, 300 of my discs that I bought from you 6 years ago went bad, you are very likey not going to recieve 300 new discs as replacements.

[Carlos Garcia]

I suppose the only sure thing is to eventually set up a server on ones computer, that contains all the movies we want to watch. This way the only way they will fail to play is if the hard drive breaks. I know today that would mean alot of hard drives, but who knows what the future may bring in terms of storage. Maybe one day we will be able to have a tiny new media format that can hold thousands of DVDs. Only time will tell.