Adding IVTC to DVD-RB Process?

[Noah]

I've been trying to IVTC a telecined DVD that I'm backing up with DVD-RB. Adding telecide() to the Avisynth script works great, but decimate()ing the extra frame results in a frame rate that CCE doesn't support, since DVD-RB is already serving the original 30 fps at 24 fps. The final product without decimate() seem fine, apart from the extra frames/jerkiness, even as far as audio sync.

I know there are ways to do this without Rebuilder but I'm not too keen on learning the whole manual process now that DVD-RB automates so much of it.

So is there a way to accomplish this with DVD-RB doing most of the work, or am I stuck doing it the hard way?

[youngm]

Well, I've been all through the process and cannot find any way to IVTC at all in DVD-RB. Not only is it not a feature but I believe it is currently impossible manipulate the avs files in any way to support it since DVD-RB is always Preparing the d2v to be 24fps.

IVTC seems to me to be a fairly major feature hole in DVD-RB. I would really like to here something from either Jdobbs or anyone else in the know if we can hope for IVTC support anywhere in DVD-RB's future or if those hoping for IVTC should stop waiting and just move onto another tool?

Sure looks like a great looking tool, hope I get to use it sometime. ;)

Mike

[Noah]

Well, I played around a bit more...setting Frame_Rate=29970 in the d2v file...running pulldown.exe, etc. No luck so far. In a few cases IVTC seemed to work, but then audio was well out of sync and final fps were off.

While I agree that IVTC would be an excellent addition to DVD-RB, I sense that getting the core functions nailed down might be of greater importance at the moment. I suppose just exposing this as an option for users to play with might be feasible. Just enough so that editing the files created in the prepare stage and the proper use of scripts/apps can get it working without breaking sync when the re-encoded files are rebuilt. It should even lead to greater stability once IVTC becomes more of a "supported feature," assuming that's part of the plan.

I still think there's a way to accomplish this with the right settings and tools, but so far its beyond me. It may well be just as complicated as the Big 3 or other known methods. Anybody want to enlighten me? ;)

[onesoul]

I dont't understand why you would want to do IVTC. DVD-RB handles this the best way.

From readme since version 0.33
- Removed the "Automatic FILM" and "Force FILM" options. These were previously
used to make a decision (familiar to old CCE method users) as to whether to
create an output of 23.976 or 29.97 at the cell level (for either telecining
or not telecining for NTSC users). DVD-RB now keeps the original frame
structure intact through all three phases -- eliminating annoying conversion
errors. These manifest themselves as either a combed appearance on telecined-
to-standard or occasional frame jumps on standard-to-telecined conversions.
Mixes of the two in the same Cell are no longer a problem. The "AutoFILM
Threshold" parameter has also been removed for the same reason.
- Only one .D2V file is written now due to the two changes above so all files
refer to the same .D2V. Note: All frame rates for NTSC will list in the D2V
file as 23976 regardless of original -- it truly has no purpose in the new
method as all frames are treated equally -- please don't change it, as CCE
and other encoders can abort on illegal values.
- Encoding speeds for FILM sources should increase through MPEGDEC3DG.DLL due
to a reduced complexity in the source stream. My experience is that it
improves by about 15% (I went from 1.75 to 2.16). Note that non-telecined
source speeds may also appear to increase on NTSC sources due to the fixed
23.976 feeder framerate -- but in reality remain the same (although the CCE
"Speed:" scale will appear higher -- the "Elapsed Time:" remains the same).

[RB]

Maybe Noah is referring to hard telecide, IOW 3:2 pulldown before encoding the original?

[Noah]

Originally posted by onesoul
I dont't understand why you would want to do IVTC.
Because telecined material looks craptacular on progressive displays. Probably a Faroudja-based DVD player or an HTPC (assuming better deinterlacing in either case) would help, but I'm otherwise happy with my present setup and this is a rare enough case for what I watch that its not worth building a system around. Telecine is also less than optimal for compression.

The way DVD-RB handles everything at 24 fps may indeed be best in terms of reliably rebuilding the original frame structure, but it becomes a PITA when you want to alter the original frame structure. An option to set the input and output framerate might help facilitate IVTC in between.

Maybe Noah is referring to hard telecide, IOW 3:2 pulldown before encoding the original?
I think I am. IVTC before reencoding...call it what you want.

[wmansir]

I wouldn't call this a major feature hole, because DVD-RB recreates the structure exactly as it is on the disc. So the only case where IVTC would be 'needed' would be when the authors of the original disc put telecined material on as interlaced (and you, being anal, would like to fix it and make it progressive with pulldown flags). However, I think it is possible.

The key is to replace the .FLG files for the segment you want to IVTC because those flags will overwrite the pulldown flags present in the IVTC'd video on rebuild.

Edit to say: saying a person is anal isn't an insult. Obviously I've put some thought into this myself. :)

[youngm]

I guess that I am just an anal special case then. :)

In my case I'm taking movies that were once progressive but were re-encoded to a 4:3 aspect ratio poorly interlaced (When I watch the movie it appears the interlaced frames are behind a frame completely unbearable). So I am trying to restore the original quality by converting the aspect ratio back to 16:9 where appropriate and deinterlacing. In my case an IVTC works perfectly to bring the movie back to its original progressive beauty. :)

I can and have successfully done this using the Big 3 but it is a real tedious process. I haven't actually built a DVD using DVD-RB because of the lack of IVTC so perhaps there are more feature holes in the project that I don't know about but for ME anyway the lack of IVTC is major. :)

So I pose the question again can anyone provide any hope for IVTC in the future of DVD-RB? Or should I just go back to the Big 3 for my special case movies?

Mike

[Noah]

Originally posted by wmansir
I wouldn't call this a major feature hole...
I wouldn't either...its just a "something I want to work for me with a little tinkering" hole. ;)

Originally posted by youngm
I guess that I am just an anal special case then. :)

In my case I'm taking movies that were once progressive but were re-encoded to a 4:3 aspect ratio poorly interlaced (When I watch the movie it appears the interlaced frames are behind a frame completely unbearable). So I am trying to restore the original quality by converting the aspect ratio back to 16:9 where appropriate and deinterlacing. In my case an IVTC works perfectly to bring the movie back to its original progressive beauty. :)
Yep, I'm in the same boat with some shot on film TV show material. Thankfully its already 16:9, but I'd like to personally supply a beatdown to the person who decided to author the DVD in this manner. My DVD player just craps out into a poorly-implemented video mode when left to decide the deinterlacing scheme on its own and combs badly when I select the "film" setting.

I can IVTC it perfectly with decomb, fix the flags with pulldown.exe...I just wish Rebuilder would cooperate.

[onesoul]

Sorry, didn't understand before what you meant.