Need advice on a professional DVD authoring program [Archive]

Hamburglar

25th May 2004, 18:04

I am going to be producing and making from scratch, a dual layered music video DVD for a group named Onyx. One of the guys in Onyx just sent me at his cost, a DLT deck. I need to send the DVD replication factory 2 DLT tapes. One for each layer.

Ulead DVD Workshop 2 supports dual layered DLT writing, and I wasted a week learning the program before I realized it doesn't allow me to choose WHERE I want the layer change (just some random number thing). I can't have a 1 second pause in the middle of a high energy music video. I can however place it descreetly during some interview session or something. But of course DVD Workshop 2 isn't allowing me to choose where the layer change goes. It just does it automatically at 4.3 gigs or whatever, or via some number system which I don't understand. I need to be slick about it. Like Reseivor Dogs, the layer changes when a door slams, so you don't notice it.

So basically I need to know if anyone knows of a Windows DVD authoring program that will allow me the exact spot for a layer to change and to write to DLT, but is fairly simple to use. I tried to check out Scenarist and a few other programs that did it, but they just seemed so complicated and I really appreciate something that is a little user friendly. I was using Sonic Foundry (now Sony) DVD Architect and even though it was "professional" I loved how everything made sense in it. It just doesn't do dual layers/DLT.

Thanks a ton in advance.

PS: I am not making money on this DVD, however I will be given a ton of free copies. Anyone here who happens to be an Onyx fan (unlikely), just ask and it's yours free.

Dimmer

26th May 2004, 02:26

Probably, most members would agree that you have the only one sure-fire way to succeed on Windows platform: Scenarist.

Hamburglar

26th May 2004, 04:25

Originally posted by Dimmer
Probably, most members would agree that you have the only one sure-fire way to succeed on Windows platform: Scenarist.

I have checked out this program, and it makes me feel like I am creating a DVD in Notepad. It's just really UN user friendly. I will use Scenarist if necessary, but I'd rather not.

Also, I checked Scenarist's supported hardware, and it supports the Adaptec 2940 SCSI card for DLT drives, but I have the 2930. Will that actually be a problem?

Dimmer

26th May 2004, 10:55

Yes, many people find Scenarist not especially user friendly. I don't feel myself that it's as bad as it's often described, but then again, I find Notepad a very handy program, too.

Can't say about that specific SCSI adapter. Just check the Layout Editor - if Scenarist recognizes it as a target device for pre-mastering, then it's most likely going to work.

SurfDrifter

26th May 2004, 14:28

You could always use DVDMaestro, which isn't that hostile as Scenarist and I can tell you for sure that I have the Adaptec SCSI 2904 with a DLT7000 and it works great.

Hamburglar

27th May 2004, 00:35

Originally posted by SurfDrifter
You could always use DVDMaestro, which isn't that hostile as Scenarist and I can tell you for sure that I have the Adaptec SCSI 2904 with a DLT7000 and it works great.

OK, like I said it obviously works with the 2940 because Scenarist's site says it does, I needed to know if it will work with the 2930

Hamburglar

27th May 2004, 03:54

I forgot to say it's a HUGE plus if the program allows me to preview how everything is coming along.

neil wilkes

29th May 2004, 16:35

Adobe's EncoreDVD will do exactly what you need, and best of all there is a 30 day tryout version available on their website so you can check it out before parting with your cash.
We use it regularly - even to the extent that we have now bought 4 copies of it altogether.

It will "suggest" the layer break for you, but you also have the option to move it around for smoother transitions, given that you have enough space on the disc for this.
In preview mode, it is harder to know for sure how well the layer break will perform, as there is always a slowdown at these points using simulations, even in Scenarist.

Encore is around $500, Scenarist is around $40,000.
Encore is admittedly an abstraction layer tool, whereas Scenarist will allow cell commands to be modified, as well as defining all user ops etc. at a GOP level or lower.
However, Encore will definitely do what you need, and given it's integration with Premiere Pro & Photoshop, you end up with a hell of a lot of control. Top value for money, it really is.

hendrix

31st May 2004, 15:13

@Hamburglar...first of all good luck on your dvd...if you're having trouble with Scenarist try the Scenarist Survival Guide in 24 hours (http://www.dvd-replica.com/scenarist308/index.php) website...i personally find Scenarist very easy to use...once you learn all the jargons and the symbols within scenarist you should have no problems with it - if you need any questions just e-mail me

i can also give you some info on how i make dynamic menus with antialiased subpics and what programs i use

hendrix

p.s. Onyx? the same Onyx that brought us "Slam"?

mcmanuf

2nd June 2004, 20:33

To Hendrix:
Exactly the same thought that came to my mind. I really like those guys,
and if it's really them, then what a priviligue that the one whos going to produce their dvd is in this forum.

Please Hamburglar can you verify if its those guys, who gave us slam harder?

Sorry I cant contribute to your question concering a professional program.

hendrix

3rd June 2004, 00:10

Originally posted by mcmanuf
To Hendrix:
Exactly the same thought that came to my mind. I really like those guys,
and if it's really them, then what a priviligue that the one whos going to produce their dvd is in this forum.

Please Hamburglar can you verify if its those guys, who gave us slam harder?

ya ...those guys kicked ass

Hamburglar

3rd June 2004, 08:15

Awesome. I am looking all around at this info. You guys rock and I will post back in a few more days with more info.

Yes, these are the guys that brought us "SLAM". Believe it or not they had 17 music videos in their career.

I am not making any money off this DVD but if they send me a few free copies, anyone here who wants one will get one.

Hamburglar

3rd June 2004, 16:42

OK, i wanted to try out Adobe Encore 1.5 but Adobe's site only has the trial for 1.0 :(

hendrix

3rd June 2004, 17:01

Go with Scenarist...more options, more flexible, basically more everything - really it's not as hard as people make it out to be

NavPak

5th June 2004, 13:35

Please use Scenarist or Maestro. I don't think I'd get any sleep if you said you were going to make the Onyx dvd on Encore!

_NavPak J

hendrix

5th June 2004, 14:16

Originally posted by NavPak
Please use Scenarist or Maestro. I don't think I'd get any sleep if you said you were going to make the Onyx dvd on Encore!

_NavPak J
Right...Onyx made noise when they first came out, i had friends copying their style..hahah - if youre going to produce a DVD for them or for anyone, it will look better on your resume if you would to put "Scenarist" or "DVDMaestro" instead of Encore, not that im putting Encore down but production facilities and Film Houses often frown when not having certification on Professional Equipment and Software...I work in a TV Studio and we use Scenarist...im also starting my own Production company and i will be using Scenarist.

Hamburglar

5th June 2004, 16:42

Alright. I gotta really try scenarist. Just seems soooooooooooo confusing.

Does it convert non compliant files for me or do I still need to have the mpeg2's ready for it?

hendrix

5th June 2004, 17:35

Originally posted by Hamburglar
Alright. I gotta really try scenarist. Just seems soooooooooooo confusing.

Does it convert non compliant files for me or do I still need to have the mpeg2's ready for it?
you'll have to encode to mpeg2 yourself...i would use Cinema Craft Encoder...DONT use premiere's mpeg2 encoder...

dont use mp2 audio - it's NOT a NTSC standard and not all players will play the file...use .ac3, Vegas 5 has a good dolby digital encoder,

anyway what source files are you using?...if you can get the .sgi digital answer print files that would be the best since you can encode to 24p via after effects, the quality is excellent, Digital BetaCam is also an excellent source.

Hamburglar

5th June 2004, 18:49

Originally posted by hendrix
you'll have to encode to mpeg2 yourself...i would use Cinema Craft Encoder...DONT use premiere's mpeg2 encoder...

dont use mp2 audio - it's NOT a NTSC standard and not all players will play the file...use .ac3, Vegas 5 has a good dolby digital encoder,

anyway what source files are you using?...if you can get the .sgi digital answer print files that would be the best since you can encode to 24p via after effects, the quality is excellent, Digital BetaCam is also an excellent source.

The source tapes they gave me are MiniDV, dubbed from Beta SP.

I am probably going to use PCM audio, because I think that's the best for a music video DVD. Something I decided on a long time ago. I was considering using MainConcept to make the mpegs. Good idea?

NavPak

5th June 2004, 19:16

If you can go from Beta SP to mpeg-2 with one of Sonics SD-series encoders. There are loads of software options though as I'm sure you are aware. ProCoder (Canopus) is a option I often see mentioned for windows.

_NavPak J

Hamburglar

5th June 2004, 23:08

Originally posted by NavPak
If you can go from Beta SP to mpeg-2 with one of Sonics SD-series encoders. There are loads of software options though as I'm sure you are aware. ProCoder (Canopus) is a option I often see mentioned for windows.

_NavPak J

We really can't go from Beta SP to MPEG2 anyway, since a decent amount of editing is going to be done to the videos, so they'd end up in DV format sooner or later anyway.

hendrix

6th June 2004, 03:01

Originally posted by Hamburglar
The source tapes they gave me are MiniDV, dubbed from Beta SP.

I am probably going to use PCM audio, because I think that's the best for a music video DVD. Something I decided on a long time ago. I was considering using MainConcept to make the mpegs. Good idea?
if youre going to be producing a double layered disk then PCM audio should be fine, for a singled layered then i would go AC3...MainConcept is the same encoder in Premiere Pro...I would go CCE for more superior and faster...I get x3 enocode speeds on my system with CCE, and with CCE you can go multipass encodes all the way to 9x (although 5x is good enough)

i've produced DVD from miniDV source tapes, since DVs produce compression artifacts, i often de-artifact them (Not to be confused with de-interlaced), magic bullet is a good plug-in for deartifacting and it keeps your footage in the NTSC broadcast specs.

Arky

6th June 2004, 14:20

Just be careful with Magic Bullet if you are pushed for time - it takes forever to render, apparently.

For encoding, if you can't use hardware, then of the available software encoders, I'd choose either Cinemacraft or ProCoder. ProCoder is good if your DV footage is a little on the noisy side, but other than that, the two encoders are pretty evenly-matched, with Cinemacraft SP perhaps having the edge where fades to black are common in your footage, because it offers multipass (i.e. more than 2 passes). However, there is no absolute consensus on which is generally the better encoder - it remains a topic of hot debate!

Cinemacraft Basic is the same encoding engine as SP, BTW - it's just that some of the features (such as multipass) have been removed. I use Basic and I must say I like it. There again, I also use ProCoder - you take your pick, but I would suggest to you that these two encoders are slighly ahead of the competition in terms of output quality and consistency. TMPGEnc comes very close...

Arky ;o)

hendrix

6th June 2004, 16:06

Originally posted by Arky
Just be careful with Magic Bullet if you are pushed for time - it takes forever to render, apparently.

Arky ;o)
right...it does take a long time to render - thats why i plan on getting a second and a third computer and make a render farm for faster rendering.

Hamburglar

7th June 2004, 08:21

Thanks guys!

Magic Bullet is a add in for what?

hendrix

7th June 2004, 08:49

Magic Bullet Suite (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magbulsuit.html) is a plug-in for Adobe After Effects - it's a powerful plug-in which takes your 30i/25i footage and makes it 24p - if youre a PAL user you need to shoot at 1/50 and NTSC at 1/60. in addition to Magic Bullet I also use ReelSmart Motion Blur (http://www.revisionfx.com/mblur.htm) to simulate motion blur. Magic Bullet takes a while to render...a render farm is recommended.

Hamburglar

7th June 2004, 15:17

Originally posted by hendrix
Magic Bullet Suite (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magbulsuit.html) is a plug-in for Adobe After Effects - it's a powerful plug-in which takes your 30i/25i footage and makes it 24p - if youre a PAL user you need to shoot at 1/50 and NTSC at 1/60. in addition to Magic Bullet I also use ReelSmart Motion Blur (http://www.revisionfx.com/mblur.htm) to simulate motion blur. Magic Bullet takes a while to render...a render farm is recommended.

Cool so even though my footage is DV it will look better as 24p and "de-artifacted"?

Arky

7th June 2004, 15:33

Originally posted by hendrix
Magic Bullet Suite (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magbulsuit.html) is a plug-in for Adobe After Effects - it's a powerful plug-in which takes your 30i/25i footage and makes it 24p - if youre a PAL user you need to shoot at 1/50 and NTSC at 1/60. in addition to Magic Bullet I also use ReelSmart Motion Blur (http://www.revisionfx.com/mblur.htm) to simulate motion blur. Magic Bullet takes a while to render...a render farm is recommended.

I use ReelSmart Fields Kit and ReelSmart Motion Blur, myself, but I am curious - if you have Red Giant's Magic Bullet, then why do you still need to use the ReelSmart Motion Blur? Doesn't Magic Bullet take care of this in addition to its other talents?

Arky ;o)

hendrix

7th June 2004, 15:37

Originally posted by Hamburglar
Cool so even though my footage is DV it will look better as 24p and "de-artifacted"?
if it was originally shot with film and telecined then it should be no problem,
but if it was originally shot with video with the shutter speed other than 1/60(NTSC) or 1/50(PAL) then it wont look right (ie. ghosting, studdering, etc.)

hendrix

7th June 2004, 15:40

Originally posted by Arky
I use ReelSmart Fields Kit and ReelSmart Motion Blur, myself, but I am curious - if you have Red Giant's Magic Bullet, then why do you still need to use the ReelSmart Motion Blur? Doesn't Magic Bullet take care of this in addition to its other talents?
Arky ;o)
to simulate motion blur with Magic Bullet you have to use AE's motion blur option - i like the way ReelSmart Motion Blur looks - it looks more natural - plus you can adjust the blurriness, which is very sweet.:D
hendrix

Hamburglar

8th June 2004, 07:10

hendrix, is Magic Bullet available for Vegas?

hendrix

8th June 2004, 11:53

Originally posted by Hamburglar
hendrix, is Magic Bullet available for Vegas?
Magic Bullet Editors (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/mbforeditors.html) is for Vegas, Premiere Pro and Final Cut Pro. It's not the same as Magic Bullet Suite (Adobe After Effects) - Magic Bullet Editors lets you simulate the color of film but wont let you go from 30i/25i to 24p it's only $299. I use Magic Bullet Suite HD which is $1995. If your target is video/DVD then Editors should be fine enough, in addition you can use some avs scripts to convert your footage to 24p. Suite is more for those who want to transfer to 35mm. Check out Scharfis Brain's website (http://home.arcor.de/scharfis_brain/60ito24p.html) on converting 30i to 24p via avs scripts

Hamburglar

8th June 2004, 18:03

How do I know how the music videos were "shot" eg shutter speed? All I know is these are from Beta SP masters to MiniDV

hendrix

9th June 2004, 03:30

try converting the footage to 24p - if it looks fine then you know...but if the picture looks studdered then it probably wasn't shot on film or video with a 1/60 shutter speed. it's probably best NOT to deinterlace your footage as it tends to make footage look like shit...deinterlacing is fine if your target is computers but not for TV, but everyone has their own technique to do things

Hamburglar

9th June 2004, 05:25

I just got Adobe After Effects 6.0 and Magic Bullet 1.5. Can you give me a real brief description on how to take my video and convert it with Magic Bullet to look good? Your name is totally going in this DVD man.

hendrix

9th June 2004, 09:37

Originally posted by Hamburglar
I just got Adobe After Effects 6.0 and Magic Bullet 1.5. Can you give me a real brief description on how to take my video and convert it with Magic Bullet to look good? Your name is totally going in this DVD man.
cool...credit me as Brian Hammond :D

hendrix

9th June 2004, 09:52

Thread continued to the NLE forum (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77732)

hendrix

12th June 2004, 03:16

Also the video on my DVD player looked fine if someone was moving up and down but looked really choppy if they moved left to right.

Also in composition settings, you didn't say if I should change the width and height to 720 x 480. It's pre set to 320 x 240

since youre producing a dual layered disk then i would just leave it as interlaced, i know you wanted to use PCM audio but also listen to .ac3 - if you cant tell the difference then go .ac3 as it's a space saver.

for AE the composition size should be 720x480 for DV footage

try experimenting on deinterlacers on your own time and not with this project...you dont want to make it worse and have Onyx "Slam" you

Hamburglar

12th June 2004, 06:47

Originally posted by hendrix
Also the video on my DVD player looked fine if someone was moving up and down but looked really choppy if they moved left to right.

Also in composition settings, you didn't say if I should change the width and height to 720 x 480. It's pre set to 320 x 240

since youre producing a dual layered disk then i would just leave it as interlaced, i know you wanted to use PCM audio but also listen to .ac3 - if you cant tell the difference then go .ac3 as it's a space saver.

for AE the composition size should be 720x480 for DV footage

try experimenting on deinterlacers on your own time and not with this project...you dont want to make it worse and have Onyx "Slam" you

If this 24p thing really makes the videos look better I'd like to do it. But I followed your tutorial as far as I can see perfectly and like I said it looks normal until somehting goes up and down and it gets real choppy. Maybe I am doing something wrong?

hendrix

12th June 2004, 06:57

if it looks choppy then it probably cant be IVTC'd to 24p...i suggest leaving it as is - remember not all sources can be IVTC'd to 24p...it all depense on how the DP shot it originally, what's the source, shutter speed and stuff.

Hamburglar

13th June 2004, 07:48

Hendrix, do you recommend I have each video go through the "Deartifacting" process? Is it actually noticable? Since DVD has way more artifacting than DV, wouldn't this be pointless if I'm going back to DVD?

Also do you have an email address I can bother you about something at? Trust me I'd never ask you for help, I know that's what this forum is for.

hendrix

13th June 2004, 08:51

Originally posted by Hamburglar
Hendrix, do you recommend I have each video go through the "Deartifacting" process? Is it actually noticable? Since DVD has way more artifacting than DV, wouldn't this be pointless if I'm going back to DVD?

Also do you have an email address I can bother you about something at? Trust me I'd never ask you for help, I know that's what this forum is for.
deartifacting is highly recommended if youre doing chroma keying but since all youre doing is authoring a DVD then you really dont need to deartifact your footage since it's gonna be recompressed to mpeg2 anyways...ya e-mail here... lance_bukkake AT hotmail.com

feel free to bother me no worries at all

Hamburglar

14th June 2004, 21:50

OK, I seriously, seriously want to learn Scenarist for this ONE project. I am totally used to programs that are drag and drop and easy as cake. I open Scenarist and it's impossible to understand.

I will be using CCE to encode the videos. After that, I am at a loss. What can someone here recommend to a complete Scenarist newbie like me? I mean I am TOTALLY lost when I check out that program.

neil wilkes

14th June 2004, 22:05

There really is no quick way in Scenarist. It is not an abstraction layer tool, so you need to script just about everything - all that control comes at a price.

I would recommend that you get familiar with all the DVD protocols & restrictions by going for an abstraction layer tool at first - just until you get familiar with the DVD Spec.

I cannot recommend Adobe's EncoreDVD highly enough for a beginner - it is very friendly & integrates well with Photoshop for menu creation too. The only downside to it is no DTS Audio support.
Try the 30 day version at the adobe website before you buy, then you will soon see if it is for you.
Also, Adobe Studio - an online resource - has oodles of guides, tutorials, workthroughs & a support forum with some very, very knowledgeable people to help out.

Give it a go - you will be up & running in no time.

Hamburglar

14th June 2004, 23:09

Originally posted by neil wilkes
There really is no quick way in Scenarist. It is not an abstraction layer tool, so you need to script just about everything - all that control comes at a price.

I would recommend that you get familiar with all the DVD protocols & restrictions by going for an abstraction layer tool at first - just until you get familiar with the DVD Spec.

I cannot recommend Adobe's EncoreDVD highly enough for a beginner - it is very friendly & integrates well with Photoshop for menu creation too. The only downside to it is no DTS Audio support.
Try the 30 day version at the adobe website before you buy, then you will soon see if it is for you.
Also, Adobe Studio - an online resource - has oodles of guides, tutorials, workthroughs & a support forum with some very, very knowledgeable people to help out.

Give it a go - you will be up & running in no time.

I may try Adobe Encore then. Thanks. Is there a huge difference between 1.1 and 1.5? One other big thing is I can't have a pause between the intro movie and the first menu. Can I do that in Encore?Thanks!

hendrix

15th June 2004, 00:12

Originally posted by Hamburglar
I may try Adobe Encore then. Thanks. Is there a huge difference between 1.1 and 1.5? One other big thing is I can't have a pause between the intro movie and the first menu. Can I do that in Encore?Thanks!
@ Hamburglar e-mail bro...
you can drag and drop in scenarist - it's not that hard