MacOS and Windows compability

[mrhaze]

I could not find an appropiate forum to ask this since it applies to all formats (mpeg2, xvid etc).

Which is the best solution when making a cross-platform video regarding quality, size and compability? The video will be played in one of those autorun builder programs.

Thanks,
- mrhaze

[stephanV]

i think 3ivx would be a likely candidate...

[jggimi]

Moved to General forum.

[Nic]

For ease of play and portability, I still think the only sure thing is MPEG-1. But if the quality of MPEG-1 is too low (per bitrate)...then you get into a difficult area because it depends what each machine has installed.

If you assume that every 'nix box has a libavcodec player (mplayer, xine, etc) and windows just has it's standard installed codecs (or codecs it can download). Then you can try the old MS MPEG-4 codecs (not MS-MPEG4v3 which was later DivX 3.11, but MS-MEPGv2 should be enough)...

3ivx/MP4 will run on alot of platforms assuming that they have installed the necessary parts (which windows doesnt have natively).

-Nic

edit:
ps
Oh, and if you meant MacOS rather than Mac OSX (the *nix based ones), then I'd definitely go with MPEG-1...(as QT doesn't support much)

[shitowax]

3ivx is supported on MacOS9 and was reported to work on MacOS8.something as well ;)

http://www.3ivx.com/download/macos.html

[Nic]

@shitowax: :) I'm sure, and 3ivx is definitely a good solution to his problem, if he knows the people playing the file can/will install the 3ivx codec. If not, then he's a bit stuck :(

[mrhaze]

The video will be released on an album with 55 mins of music which leaves 15 minutes (=~140mb?) for the video. The video source is a DV tape and the length is ~12 min.

Since it will be released on the mass market I'm looking for a format that will work almost everywhere and should not require an installation. If I understood this correctly mpeg1 will be the best solution but with the poorest quality?

3ivx however seems like a candidate, I assume it's a simple (xvid/divx) style installation? That should work if mpeg1's quality doesn't cut it.

[Nic]

@mrhaze: That's a good summary...you may also want to contact shitowax/3ivx to make sure there are no licensing issues/problems as I'm sure they can advise when using 3ivx (just to be on the safe side).

I think you can get good quality with MPEG-1 even at low bitrates, not as nice as MPEG-4/divx/xvid/3ivx, but still nice....

(12min video in 140meg means you can have a bitrate of around 1500+kbps (I think off the top of my head) so that's more than enough for good MPEG-1 quality)

-Nic

[Stux]

The most compatible format is cinepak in either avi or mov... but the quality/efficiency is horrendous.

The next most compatible format is MPEG-1 at a standard resolution and bitrate... virtually all OSes come with an MPEG decoder. The quality can be okay, efficiency is not so good.

The most compatible format with good quality and efficiency is MP4 (including 3ivx MP4)

MP4 can be played by any MP4 decoder (QuickTime 6, 3ivx, Platform4 Player, Nero ShowTime, Envivio, etc)


Currently Windows does not come with an MP4 decoder.

[atracus]

I'm only partially aligned with your comments; I've been using OSX for almost 18 months up to now, and I agree with Stux that the best cross-compatible format is MPEG4.

I've made several tests with DivX, XviD and 3ivx, and the most compatible, high-quality and hassle-free of all is XviD, played in a Mac using VLC (the open source VideoLan Client), or MPlayer as a second choice.

Stay away from DivX, they claim compatibility but on a Mac it's still a piece of crap when compared to the winbox code.

3ivx *might* be your second choice, but if you constrain to file-size you have WAY better quality with XviD -- there are some all-in-one conversion packs from rips or from DV source material, I'd recommend D-Vision and ffmpegX, your choice.

BUT definitely, if you go with an "autorun" player, _MPEG1_ is fully supported (MPEG2 is a fee extension of Quicktime), I'd stick with it.

have fun!

[atx]

[SeeMoreDigital]

2pass Sorenson3 video is not that bad either!

And of course once the video stream is muxed into an .mov container (with Mp3 or AAC audio) the encodes will work with both PC and Mac platforms.


Cheers

[atracus]

agreed, CmoreDig, agreed ;)

2p-Sorenson3:
1- is cross platform
2- produces "acceptable quality"

I'd just like to point out that sharpness + macroblocks reduction just happens in XviD, the latter alone in Realvideo (but on a Mac encoding in rv9+ is a pain in the ass...)

when you want your 1h45' straight into 700MB, I found (until now) nothing better than XviD (or the open-version mpeg4, mencoder)

cheers
[atx]

[Stux]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
2pass Sorenson3 video is not that bad either!

And of course once the video stream is muxed into an .mov container (with Mp3 or AAC audio) the encodes will work with both PC and Mac platforms.


There is no benefit over MP4 with Sorenson3. Sorenson 3 requires QuickTime to play, AND an extra codec download. MP4 support is included in QuickTime 6.

So, if you're going to require quicktime, then you might as well use MP4, especially since you can get better results with MP4

Also, if you use MP4 then your users can use *any* MP4 player and are not restricted to QuickTime only

(setting up ffdshow to decode sorenson3 with the help of 3ivx doesn't really count as an end-user solution)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Stux
There is no benefit over MP4 with Sorenson3. Sorenson 3 requires QuickTime to play, AND an extra codec download. MP4 support is included in QuickTime 6.

So, if you're going to require quicktime, then you might as well use MP4, especially since you can get better results with MP4Yep, as you know, I love my Mpeg4 video especially when it's in an MP4 container.

But it would be very remiss not to mention other 'viable' alternatives, and Sorenson2 and 3 is most definitely viable...

If you remember, a few weeks ago I was trying to find a reliable method of muxing Mpeg4/AAC into MP4 in a way that the QuickTime player liked.

I was doing this because a friend of mine wanted to host some of his work on his website for streaming. In the end I generated 15No Mpeg4/AAC in MP4 files and 15No Sorenson3/AAC in MOV. He and his website hosts went for the MOV's (much to my disappointment) as they were easier to stream!

The clips are all 288 pixels high (and various widths, depending on AR) and use no more than 75KB per second. Anyway they'll be available in a few weeks, so everyone will be able to comment (if anyones still interested)!

Obviously, mrhaze has got a lot more MB space to play with and is not streaming. And like Nic said, even Mpeg1 will look good!


Cheers

[Stux]

Well, you could've gone for MPEG-4/AAC in a MOV then ;)

You open the MP4 in QT, then you save it as a MOV

If you recall, you were having difficulties because you were refusing to use the 3ivx tools ;)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Stux
Well, you could've gone for MPEG-4/AAC in a MOV then ;)

You open the MP4 in QT, then you save it as a MOV

If you recall, you were having difficulties because you were refusing to use the 3ivx tools ;) Actually it was because I had never used GraphEdit before... and it didn't help that one of my PC's kept crashing everytime I used it. But there's no doubt your tools work because that's what I used in the end!

Damn. It never occured to me to mux Mpeg4/AAC into MOV :(

How do I do this in GraphEdit. Is there an graph?


Many thanks

[Stux]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Actually it was because I had never used GraphEdit before... and it didn't help that one of my PC's kept crashing everytime I used it. But there's no doubt your tools work because that's what I used in the end!

Damn. It never occured to me to mux Mpeg4/AAC into MOV :(

How do I do this in GraphEdit. Is there an graph?


Many thanks

Just use a .mov instead of a .mp4 in the Filewriter...

BIG BUT though, the muxer might not correctly mux aac into .mov in a way that quicktime likes... So an alternative way is to mux into an mp4, then open the MP4 in QT and resave as a mov (just do save as). This will save a MOV with the same tracks as the MP4.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Thanks again Stux... I thought there might be a knack to doing it!


Cheers

[mrhaze]

As both Nic and SeeMoreDigital says MPEG1 will look good with the bitrate I can go at I think this will be the best choice since compability is a big issue here. However, since I'm not a frequent Mac user, does most Macintoshes these days have QT - and which MPEG4 format does it support?

Has anyone here attempted a Mac/Win autorun feature with video in it? I could use some good advices on which applications to use. I did stumble on CDEveryWhere (http://www.i2rd.com/CDEveryWhere/download.shtml) which seems to handle both Win and Mac autorun. Perhaps this is not the correct forum.

[Stux]

*ALL* macs have QT (essentially)

QT6 supports MPEG-4 SP

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes, as far as I am aware, all MAC's come with the QuickTime player as standard, in much the same way all Win O/S based PC's come with M$'s Windows Media Player as standard.

Given that this is the case, all MAC's can by default play both Mpeg1 as well as Mpeg4/AAC files. Indeed as Stux already mentioned, the QuickTime player can also play Mpeg4/AAC streams when muxed into an .MOV container, which makes the player very flexible.

The only draw back I can see is that some Win O/S PC users might not have the QuickTime player installed. But you could provide an direct download link to the QuickTime player - http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/standalone/

Or you could even include a copy of the full installer .exe file on your disc.


Cheers

[Stux]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
But you could provide an direct download link to the QuickTime

Or to 3ivx.com ;)

(3ivx Filter Suite will play MPEG-4 Video & MPEG-4 AAC Audio in MP4 and MOV files in any DirectShow application ;))

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Stux
Or to 3ivx.com ;)

(3ivx Filter Suite will play MPEG-4 Video & MPEG-4 AAC Audio in MP4 and MOV files in any DirectShow application ;)) Is there an direct link for this 'filter suite' or is it part of your main codec package?


Cheers

[Stux]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Is there an direct link for this 'filter suite' or is it part of your main codec package?


Cheers

The Filter Suite *is* the codec package, and includes all the DirectShow filters, the VfW codec and the QuickTime codec

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes. I knew that really!

I just wanted you to make it clear to mrhaze. However, the main benefit of installing the QuickTime is it's ability to play many other QuickTime .MOV formats, as well as Mpeg4.

That said, mrhaze would not have to worry about MAC users because they'll have the QuickTime player anyway (upgrades permitting). So he's only got to worry about PC/Win O/S users (dunno about Linux etc). Even so, many PC users may already have QuickTime installed... how else would they be able to watch all those film trailers ;)


Cheers