matroska Team is searching for new developers

[ChristianHJW]

Hi all,

the matroska container was recently celebrating its 1st birthday, and when looking back we are quite happy about the acceptance of the format from the users and developers, as well as the progress we made within a single year.

However, in our quest to replace the M$ AVI format we also noticed that there is no real future for matroska as long as it stays what it is right now, a container without media framework behind it, like AVI has/had with Video for Windows ( now DShow, at least partially ) and MOV has with Quicktime.

Now, what differentiates a container from a 'standard container' for a media framework you may ask ? Well, currently we, the matroska team, have to define a way to mux stuff into matroska ourselves, and specific for every new compression format. Of course, we have a VFW/DShow compatibility mode, allowing to mux all kind of stuff into matroska that way, and we plan to do the same for Quicktime, but this is not the same.

As soon as we can offer a real media framework with matroska becoming the standard container, people can start making their own codecs to be used in matroska, and still our video editors will be able to edit their stuff, and this is exactly what made AVI the most used container for the time being. Its also the reason why today we have the perverse situation that so-called hardware 'MPEG4 players' cant read MP4, the standard container for MPEG4, but will play MPEG4 video + MP3 in AVI. In this case the existing demand created the units, not the other way around, like normally. This demand was the result from the DivX codec ( a VfW codec ) being used to compress video with unknown compression ratios and quality, in combination with MP3 ACM codecs, on VfW based video compression/editing tools like Virtualdub, which were outputting into AVI format.

Inspired by the thought to have a real, x-platform media framework for matroska, we recently started to have a very close at Gstreamer, the media framework 'in spe' for Linux and part of GNOME already. robux4 is almost finished with porting it to Windows, and the patch is being looked at by the gstreamer dev team to find its way into their CVS. After that, the bigger part of the matroska dev team will start to port the existing plugins from Linux to win32, and also to create new plugins. Our goals are to

- make a nice player based on gstreamer, and usable for both Windows and Linux
- create a video editing tool ( TCME ) based on it, and again x-platform
- help improving Gstreamer

All this is necessary to ensure matroska's future, and to avoid it will just turn out to be a short movement with a number of suporters, until something more fancy see the light of day.


As a result of all of this, development work on a number of important new features like

- menues
- control tracks
- file linking support in players
- new tagging tools
- USF muxing
etc.

have more or less come to a halt ( there is hope for USF support, unmei has progressed here lately ), and we fear that our fans wont understand why after a year of fast development it all seems to have come to a sudden regression, just because of the gstreamer porting.

For that reason, we are asking

YOU

to join our team now, and help us progressing from where we have come already. Our focus is on people with C/C++ coding experience and, if possible, some background on multimedia coding. But also Java or Delphi coders can join the team, there are a couple of ideas for tools where those could be used nicely.

If you are interested, please email me to chris AT matroska.org

Thanks

Christian
matroska project admin

[mf]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
For that reason, we are asking

YOU

to join our team now, and help us progressing from where we have come already.
What,

ME?

You're kidding. :D

you could've seen that one coming :P

[stax76]

sounds good although I think MP4 is hard competition. I cross platform multimedia platform is badly needed just like a crossplatform UI solution (no I don't like things like Swing or QT, somethings XAML,XUL like is needed). Did you talk to guys like GStreamer project, Videolan, Avery Lee etc. maybe effort can be joined. I would like to join such a project but A I'm a too lame coder and B I'm working already on a couple of projects that need to be maintained



But also Java or Delphi coders can join


looks like you've missed something awfully important :D

what about the distribution of the platform? I think it would have to be lightweight, believe me most users hate to install such things, you probably guessed it from were I know about this

[unmei]

I think chris was just thinking about the java and delphi programs related with matroska. I don't think he meant to program a media framework (or TCME) in one of these languages. Besides delphi programs are standalone, they don't require you to download some virtual machine, but i admit the cross-platform is probably not -even with kylix. And it's proprietary that's undoubtable, but beside that i just think it's a great language to write in and the compiled code could be faster than you might think.

[Atamido]

Originally posted by Dolemite
Did you talk to guys like GStreamer project, Videolan, Avery Lee etc. maybe effort can be joined. Yep. :)

BBB (GStreamer dev) is regularly in the IRC channel.
thedj (VideoLAN dev) is there right now.
Avery Lee (VirtualDub dev) isn't very social. But he and ChristianHJW are both head admins for the official VirtualDub support forums.

There are also a host of other projects that the Matroska team maintains connections with. But, it is still not enough. More developer support is needed to take advantage of all of the possibilities.

[TheUnforgiven]

Isn't it easier to extend the Java Media Framework to support matroska?

[MfA]

Originally posted by Pamel Avery Lee (VirtualDub dev) isn't very social.

Oh come now, he replies readily enough on his forums ... although it is pretty clear that he wont be interested.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Pamel Avery Lee (VirtualDub dev) isn't very social. But he and ChristianHJW are both head admins for the official VirtualDub support forums.

Just for the records, i dont agree with Pamel on this. Avery is a great guy, he is certainly wokring pretty hard, and in his spare free time he is still investing into Virtualdub and its community.

But, as MfA already said, he is for sure not interested to participate in what we are trying to do, he made this more than clear in the mod section on the Vdub support forums .....

[Atamido]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Just for the records, i dont agree with Pamel on this. Avery is a great guy, he is certainly wokring pretty hard, and in his spare free time he is still investing into Virtualdub and its community. Avery is a great guy, and has (and still does) devote a lot of time into developing a very useful tool for free. He has also spent a lot of time in the past year or so devoting time to the VirtualDub forums. But for the most part he is not very social online. Up until the forums, contact with his was fairly rare and inconsistent.

My point is that the Matroska team maintains constant contact with as many related projects as possible, but this isn't likely to happen with Avery given his nature. (There is nothing wrong with not spending all of your time online. ;) ) But also as ChristianHJW pointed out, he is not interested in the development of Matroska. However, Cyrius, the VirtualDubMod dev is in the IRC channel. (Although, Avery would be an extremely powerful ally if he could be persuaded to join the dark side)

[Mug Funky]

it's probably rather untactful of me to say this (i appreciate matroska very much and it's ideology), but i feel it should be united with the Xiph project.

reason: to take on the likes of Microsoft with little financial resources and nothing but open development, there really exists a need to present a well-organized and united front.

Xiph.org already has this - consider that VP3 was opened completely on their behalf, and that Vorbis is actually really well known and gradually being included in portable hardware.

i'm not sure the politics of matroska and xiph, but i know there's a lot of back-and-forth involved when their respective container formats are discussed, and perhaps even some animosity. that is not a good idea - the enemy of your enemy is your friend. never forget that.

[DAvenger]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
there really exists a need to present a well-organized and united front.

Xiph and organized? LOL

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
that is not a good idea - the enemy of your enemy is your friend. never forget that.

Not all the time. The enemy of my enemy is often also my enemy. In fact, the friend of my friend is also sometimes my enemy. The ONLY thing you can be SURE of is the friend of my enemy is my enemy. All other relationships MUST be suspect.

[Atamido]

The Matroska team tried for a long time to combine efforts with Xiph, but was only met with hostility from Xiph. Most of that came from Emmett Plant, who has since been released as their chief 'guy'. Even so, Monty is still a teensy bit hostile, and is almost completely disinterested in cooperation.

Aside from that, almost no one thinks that Xiph is going in the right directions, and there is very little contact with the community. Emmett was the wrong kind of contact, now they just don't have any contact at all.

Still, I am sure the Matroska members would welcome any contact that Xiph would provide.

@DAvenger: Shhhh! I am sure they are trying.

-Edit: Pulled out a nasty about Emmett Plant. I still think he was a dink, but maybe its not his fault? Bad childhood or a chemical imbalance?

[mf]

Originally posted by Pamel
The Matroska team tried for a long time to combine efforts with Xiph, but was only met with hostility from Xiph.
Xiph is weird, but I don't think they were actually initially hostile. I recall that came after some closed-mindedness from Matroska people.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by mf Xiph is weird, but I don't think they were actually initially hostile. ... 'hostile' is certainly incorrect, 'uninterested' and 'arrogant' would probably fit much better.
I recall that came after some closed-mindedness from Matroska people. mf, you better have some memory checker running on this part of your brains, it might be corrupted .....

[Mug Funky]

ah, fek. i didn't start a flamewar did i? sorry i said anything :rolleyes:

well, it is a shame that the free software community can't get along as yet. i just thought seeing as Vorbis is already out there and Theora is picking up momentum it would be a good place to start.

perhaps there needs to be some negotiations over a beer or two? we're all reasonable people here (please, nobody make exception to that, or this will turn into another flamefest)

[mf]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
... 'hostile' is certainly incorrect, 'uninterested' and 'arrogant' would probably fit much better.
mf, you better have some memory checker running on this part of your brains, it might be corrupted .....
Arrogant would mean that they didn't want exactly that what you had planned out in your mind? Believe me, the MD5 sum in my mind matches perfectly.

[unmei]

Maybe it is a good thing for the quality of the containers to have them developed in "in concurrence", even though it is not what makes them a strong opponent to wmv or mpeg-4.

What is certainly not a good thing is OS communities arguing about who first started being arrogant or hostile. People have different views of such things and it is utterly useless to try convincing someone to the other idea. Instead it should just be noted that something went wrong and both sides should try to come closer again or at least try not to aggravate the problem.

About the combined forces against wmv/mpeg-4, i'm a bit sceptical about. Neither xiph not matroska have any power at all, compared to the richest company or a consortium of a dozen of the leaders in entertainment technology. All we can do is try to offer good alternatives and spread the word about it. Having two instead of one OS alternative, you could say the effectiveness of our PR is cut in half - really? Maybe it cuts the users of one solution down, but two alternatives also increase the chance "the n00b" ever realizes s/he doesn't have to use what the industry makes them believe. Once s/he knows that we already sort of "won".

But this is all my opinion which is something like, having an alternative at all. And alternative to me is not wmv and not real media (i started to accept real video/audio, but the container ..nooo). As i don't count them as alternative, i could also say "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" -let's team up with mpeg against m$, but i'm not convinced of that thought. As much as i hate DRM and would hate wmv having wider acceptance than over mpeg-4, i would also be scared by a all-too-mighty mpeg-4 without any opponents.

But after all, i maybe shouldn't have posted this at all, because i don't think about strategies too much. It's better left to people like Chris (thank you very much btw:)). I sort of stated what my current feelings are after reading this thread, but most of the time i just use what i like and program what i think could be fun.
..well except that i plan for world domination of course..

[jcsston]

Originally posted by TheUnforgiven
Isn't it easier to extend the Java Media Framework to support matroska?
It has been expended :D
(At least mp3 in mka works ;) )

[Atamido]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
... 'hostile' is certainly incorrect, 'uninterested' and 'arrogant' would probably fit much better. No, 'hostile' would certainly be the correct word in reference to Emmett. I think Monty just became defensive about his baby, which is certainly understandable. I just wish he were a little more open minded about the whole thing.