DVD Players that "stutter" with DVD-RB Authored Discs

[lab-one]

As per a comment made by insanescape here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=473511#post473511) I am starting a thread to maybe shed some light on the stuttering issue.

To assist jdobbs, please keep comments to a minimum and only post the relative information about your stand alone that is having issues with stuttering...

Stand Alone: Sony DVPNS725P
Plays transcoded discs? Yes
VIDEO Stutters with DVD-RB authored discs? Yes
Tested on other stand alone players? No
Movies tried:
- Ripleys Game - deinterlaced, yes
- Pirates of the Caribbean - deinterlaced, no
- 21 Grams - deinterlaced, no
- Veronica Guerin - deinterlaced, no
- Cold Creek Manor - deinterlaced, no
NTSC, R1
DVD-RB w/cce

[wmansir]

Player: Apex-500W
Usage: NTSC R1, DVD-RB .31 w/ CCE
Problem: Random video stutter, not just at chapter points. Audio fine.

EDIT: I didn't use Deinterlaced. I think I have noticed this problem with both progressive and interlaced material. I will have to double check in the morning, hopefully I will have a new .34 rebuild done at that time.

[quantum]

Wether or not you used the optional deinterlacing feature may be important.

[Joergen]

There might be a field order bug in dvd-rb as discussed here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74257

Although I've yet to come by it.. but PAL interlaced sources only need accurate detection of field order to work right.. so a combination of field-order weirdness might be causing many of the R1 problems.

[layer3maniac]

Did you all use CCE? The reason I'm asking is this - I was watching a movie only backup of "Runaway Jury" last night, which I made with ReJig alone, NOT DVD-RB, and I noticed some stuttering.

[lab-one]

@layer3maniac

Yes, using CCE 2.50. Trying CCE 2.66 Trial just to see what happens...

[wmansir]

Could people in R1 with a PS2 tell me if they encounter the stuttering problem? I searched and found several reports of PAL users who say it works flawlessly, but I was curious about R1.

@lab-one

Did you finish testing 2.66 before overhauling your system? Did you rule it out as fixing your stuttering problem?

[lab-one]

@wmansir

Yeah, tried 2.66 also. I have also tried 2.5 and 2.66 trial since cleaning up my pc. Both have worked well.

Matrix Revolutions - CCE 2.66 Trial and 2.50 SP
Veronica Guerin - CCE 2.66 Trial and 2.50 SP
Kill Bill Vol. 1 - CCE 2.50

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by wmansir
Could people in R1 with a PS2 tell me if they encounter the stuttering problem? I searched and found several reports of PAL users who say it works flawlessly, but I was curious about R1. I'm Region-1 -- but this is a good point, are there any PAL users reporting stuttering?

[jdobbs]

Also as mentioned earlier:

1. Is the stutter R1 only?
2. Is it on telecined only?
3. Is it on CCE encodes, ReJig, or QuEnc?

I'm worn out chasing this thing and need any/all help I get get. Meanwhile, on a positive note, I'm pumping out backups one after another...

[WndrBr3d]

I get terrible stuttering when backing up my Star Trek Voyager Season 1 DVD set.

I think it has something to do with the .AVS file generated by DVD-RB.

As I reported previously, I encoded the same .AVS file to DivX and saw the stutter. But when I load the VOB manually, and encode using VirtualDubMods built in MPEG2 loader, the video doesnt stutter.

Hope this helps.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by WndrBr3d
I get terrible stuttering when backing up my Star Trek Voyager Season 1 DVD set.

I think it has something to do with the .AVS file generated by DVD-RB.

As I reported previously, I encoded the same .AVS file to DivX and saw the stutter. But when I load the VOB manually, and encode using VirtualDubMods built in MPEG2 loader, the video doesnt stutter.

Hope this helps.

Try the special test version of 0.38 here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74257&perpage=20&pagenumber=4

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by WndrBr3d
I get terrible stuttering when backing up my Star Trek Voyager Season 1 DVD set.

I think it has something to do with the .AVS file generated by DVD-RB.

As I reported previously, I encoded the same .AVS file to DivX and saw the stutter. But when I load the VOB manually, and encode using VirtualDubMods built in MPEG2 loader, the video doesnt stutter.

Hope this helps. Some additional information needs to be included in bug reports in order to fix them. In this case I need to know what version are you using?

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Some additional information needs to be included in bug reports in order to fix them. In this case I need to know what version are you using?

The latest .039
CCE 2.67
Windvd 4, LiteOn 2001, Sony DVP-NC655P.
"What women want" R1 NTSC.

Someone mentioned it could be the high bitrate. I'll check that. But I don't think so. Many places were stutter was observed were not the high motion scenes. Also .39 output still being reported as 98%-99% film by DVD2AVI. The same timeline from original is 100% film. And the way it changes between Film <-> NTSC it looks very stutter alike.
(It goes like this: Film, film..., ...film then a few NTSC frames).
This maybe just a coincidence.

Can someone also compare the source and RB's output where stutter occurs for this? Thanks.

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
The latest .039
CCE 2.67
Windvd 4, LiteOn 2001, Sony DVP-NC655P.
"What women want" R1 NTSC.

Someone mentioned it could be the high bitrate. I'll check that. But I don't think so. Many places were stutter was observed were not the high motion scenes. Also .39 output still being reported as 98%-99% film by DVD2AVI. The same timeline from original is 100% film. And the way it changes between Film <-> NTSC it looks very stutter alike.
(It goes like this: Film, film..., ...film then a few NTSC frames).
This maybe just a coincidence.

Can someone also compare the source and RB's output where stutter occurs for this? Thanks.

az Download the latest version (0.40) -- I found something that may be the root of the chapter stutters. Also -- I've tried to find a difference in several DVDs when running DVD2AVI and have found none. I also can't imagine how it could. I actually copy the flags from the original and put them back in the newly created disc. That doesn't mean it's impossible, though...

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Download the latest version (0.40) -- I found something that may be the root of the chapter stutters. Also -- I've tried to find a difference in several DVDs when running DVD2AVI and have found none. I also can't imagine how it could. I actually copy the flags from the original and put them back in the newly created disc. That doesn't mean it's impossible, though...


I've rebuilt it with .40. DVD2AVI still reports 98%-99% film. Will burn a disk and watch it again.

az

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Download the latest version (0.40) -- I found something that may be the root of the chapter stutters. Also -- I've tried to find a difference in several DVDs when running DVD2AVI and have found none. I also can't imagine how it could. I actually copy the flags from the original and put them back in the newly created disc. That doesn't mean it's impossible, though...


The stutter is still there. The bitrate has nothing to do with it. Nor the chapter/cell points. At least in my case. In fact the bitrate meter went to "0" at the trouble scene (around 1:35:10. Sony DVP-NC655P). I'll try a different disk for now.

@jdobbs
Can you try "What women want" R1 NTSC disk to see if the output is correct. I simply need a break from that movie. Can't watch it fo xx times. Or let me know if you need some of the files. I think I can place them on ftp server. Thanks.

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
The stutter is still there. The bitrate has nothing to do with it. Nor the chapter/cell points. At least in my case. In fact the bitrate meter went to "0" at the trouble scene (around 1:35:10. Sony DVP-NC655P). I'll try a different disk for now.

@jdobbs
Can you try "What women want" R1 NTSC disk to see if the output is correct. I simply need a break from that movie. Can't watch it fo xx times. Or let me know if you need some of the files. I think I can place them on ftp server. Thanks.

az It sounds like what you are seeing isn't related at all to the chapter stutter. You may want to redo the whole disc overnight with 0.40 -- I've reasserted the DVD-Compliant flag. As for the difference between the original and DVD-RB, I'm at a loss. DVD-RB does a check frame-by-frame and will kick out an error if it doesn't match. Have you run any other software against it for preprocessing, postprocessing, or removing streams, etc?

[DDogg]

Alex Z, Just throwing this out - may be worth a try to boost the minimum bitrate via the new feature in .39: (Only after trying what jdobbs said above and only if it does not fix your problem.)

In INI add

[options]
min_bitrate=1000
max_bitrate=9000

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
Alex Z, Just throwing this out - may be worth a try to boost the minimum bitrate via the new feature in .39: (Only after trying what jdobbs said above and only if it does not fix your problem.)

In INI add

[options]
min_bitrate=1000
max_bitrate=9000 1000 is pretty high for minimum. That can steal a lot of bandwidth from the high-demand periods. Remember that many of these discs average about 2500 -- that will look okay if you leave the bottom end open -- but would just about guarantee a bad encode with a minimum of 1000. If you're worried about bottom end I'd never go over a couple of hundred. But that's just me.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
It sounds like what you are seeing isn't related at all to the chapter stutter. You may want to so the whole disc overnight with 0.40 -- I've reasserted the DVD-Compliant flag. As for the difference between the original and DVD-RB, I'm at a loss. DVD-RB does a check frame-by-frame and will kick out an error if it doesn't match. Have you run any other software against it for preprocessing, postprocessing, or removing streams, etc?


Nop. Unchanged iso image (7.83Gb).

Just finished another movie using .40. Same results RB's output is 99% film while the same timeline from original is 100% film. Now I'm at lost. Just in case here is my rebuilder.ini file.

[[Paths]
CCENEW=C:\Program Files\Custom Technology\CCE SP Trial Version\EclCCE.exe
Source=I:\VIDEO_TS\
Working=E:\DVD REBUILDER TEST\DIE_HARD_DISC1\

[Options]
;defaltTargetSectors=2236400
;TargetSectors=2289664
CCETargetSectors=2256400
;ReJigTargetSectors=
;QuEncTargetSectors=
ResampleAudio=0
CCE=1
EncoderMinimized=1
DynamicBitrate=1
RemoveDTS=1
ConvertToYUY2=1
AudioDub=0
NoWarn=1
OneClick=1

[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=10
Quality_prec=24
eclPasses=2

[Setup]
FilmThreshold=285
Language11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111011111111111111111111111111111111111111111111



az

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
1000 is pretty high for minimum. That can steal a lot of bandwidth from the high-demand periods. Remember that many of these discs average about 2500 -- that will look okay if you leave the bottom end open -- but would just about guarantee a bad encode with a minimum of 1000. If you're worried about bottom end I'd never go over a couple of hundred. But that's just me.

Will try with 1000 just to see if it will somehow "fix" this.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Will try with 1000 just to see if it will somehow "fix" this. Please remember not to leave it there. I have a feeling I'm going to regret implementing those settings:(

[DDogg]

Will try with 1000 just to see if it will somehow "fix" this. Yes, that is what I was suggesting as a quick test, but jdobbs is absolutely correct that it would waste a lot of the meager bitrate we have to work with. I should have been more clear that it is only for a test. If it did by any chance fix the problem, then you would start dialing it down to something more realistic.

Jdobbs beats his dogg :o

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
The stutter is still there. The bitrate has nothing to do with it. Nor the chapter/cell points. At least in my case. In fact the bitrate meter went to "0" at the trouble scene (around 1:35:10. Sony DVP-NC655P). I'll try a different disk for now.

@jdobbs
Can you try "What women want" R1 NTSC disk to see if the output is correct. I simply need a break from that movie. Can't watch it fo xx times. Or let me know if you need some of the files. I think I can place them on ftp server. Thanks.

az I think I know what this is. You are seeing the infamous "layer break" Next time you watch it note the time. Then if you use IFOEDIT and look at the IFO you'll see it labeled as a "layer break". I just repeated it. The bitrate on my JVC player drops to "--" as it happens (that's because of the discontinuity). Setting the minimum bitrate won't help this... I recommend you leave it at the default.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I think I know what this is. You are seeing the infamous "layer break" Next time you watch it note the time. Then if you use IFOEDIT and look at the IFO you'll see it labeled as a "layer break". I just repeated it. The bitrate on my JVC player drops to "--" as it happens (that's because of the discontinuity). Setting the minimum bitrate won't help this... I recommend you leave it at the default. I will see what I need to do to remove it. There are some threads on the subject here on Doom9.

[wmansir]

grr..I just did a CBR encode, just to make sure it wasn't a bitrate max/min issue (plus I wanted a 'quick' encode). But it looks like my only DVD+RW just died. I'm trying to do a full format,(it doesn't look good) but even if it works I won't trust it enough to test out the stuttering issue. I have a couple of Riteks G04's I burned before I learned of this problem, so I know it's wasn't always a media issue.

OT:
If anyone knows an online (USA) store where I can pick up 1-5 DVD+/-RWs without getting killed on price or shipping, PM me.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by wmansir
grr..I just did a CBR encode, just to make sure it wasn't a bitrate max/min issue (plus I wanted a 'quick' encode). But it looks like my only DVD+RW just died. I'm trying to do a full format,(it doesn't look good) but even if it works I won't trust it enough to test out the stuttering issue. I have a couple of Riteks G04's I burned before I learned of this problem, so I know it's wasn't always a media issue.

OT:
If anyone knows an online (USA) store where I can pick up 1-5 DVD+/-RWs without getting killed on price or shipping, PM me. I'm confident it isn't a min/max issue. I thing that's a red herring.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by wmansir
grr..I just did a CBR encode, just to make sure it wasn't a bitrate max/min issue (plus I wanted a 'quick' encode). But it looks like my only DVD+RW just died. I'm trying to do a full format,(it doesn't look good) but even if it works I won't trust it enough to test out the stuttering issue. I have a couple of Riteks G04's I burned before I learned of this problem, so I know it's wasn't always a media issue.

OT:
If anyone knows an online (USA) store where I can pick up 1-5 DVD+/-RWs without getting killed on price or shipping, PM me. I get my DVD+RWs at Wal-Mart, Memorex, I think it was $10.00 for 3 of them. I've been burning and burning and burning and have never had one fail yet.

[jdobbs]

Oh yeah, I also got a pack of 5 TDK DVD+RWs at Target for $16.00.


EDIT: Corrected the price.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I will see what I need to do to remove it. There are some threads on the subject here on Doom9.


Maybe it's good to remove it. But I feel this will not solve the problem completely. The layer brake in my case located approx. 30min apart from that scene. What’s funny, my Liteon2001 plays fine that part. But less noticeable stutter observed along the movie on both machines. What puzzles me more is the DVD2AVI reports 99% film. This is the second movie done with DVD-RB that shows this anomaly. Could it be something wrong in my setup?

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Maybe it's good to remove it. But I feel this will not solve the problem completely. The layer brake in my case located approx. 30min apart from that scene. What’s funny, my Liteon2001 plays fine that part. But less noticeable stutter observed along the movie on both machines. What puzzles me more is the DVD2AVI reports 99% film. This is the second movie done with DVD-RB that shows this anomaly. Could it be something wrong in my setup?

az Could you create two D2V files from the original and the DVD-RB copy and send them to me?

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Could you create two D2V files from the original and the DVD-RB copy and send them to me?

Can you PM your email address?

or
I can paste here one cell of original and RB about 13kb each.

[jdobbs]

I have one now that doesn't match. Are you talking about the final "FINISHED" line at the end of the file?

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I have one now that doesn't match. Are you talking about the final "FINISHED" line at the end of the file?


I'm not sure what you mean. The diff . I see is

-Video Type
-Playback#
-Timestamp

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
I'm not sure what you mean. The diff . I see is

-Video Type
-Playback#
-Timestamp If you look at the final line of the D2V file it shows a total...

By the way, thanks for the very constructive input. :)

This has shown some interesting stuff... I'm investigating. You should hear more tomorrow.

[DDogg]

Originally posted by jdobbs -I'm confident it isn't a min/max issue. I thing that's a red herring. Speaking of dead fish, or maybe, "something that walks like a duck", I find it interesting that matrix revolution has 3 or 4 killer bitrate peaks in the first 1 minute. My old Apex glitches precisely at the start of each of them and then continues fine. The encode was done with a 10 bias and 0-9000 and these are instantaneous peaks from 0 to 9800 within 2 or 3 frames. Gee, do I hear something quacking?

I'll redo the encode tonight with a higher bias and 300-7500 to see whether the noise is fish or fowl. :eek:

[Alex_Rowe]

No more "Sttuter" on v0.40.

CCE:2.67
Eclcce: 1.81b
Movie: Lord of the Rings Two Towers NTSC
Player: LG Standalone

Until version .39, there the "stuttering" at the begining of each chapter was present, but on v0.40. finaly it no longer exists. But one problem that wasn´t present came instead: The Time Display on the Dvd LED (Display) isn´t consistent between chapters... Example: Chapter 3 ends on 12:31 and chapter 4 starts on 11:15.
The fast foward and rewind navigation on the movie doesn´t seem to be affected, only the time display isn´t accurate.

JDobbs, Thanks for this exelent program! :)

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
Speaking of dead fish, or maybe, "something that walks like a duck", I find it interesting that matrix revolution has 3 or 4 killer bitrate peaks in the first 1 minute. My old Apex glitches precisely at the start of each of them and then continues fine. The encode was done with a 10 bias and 0-9000 and these are instantaneous peaks from 0 to 9800 within 2 or 3 frames. Gee, do I hear something quacking?

I'll redo the encode tonight with a higher bias and 300-7500 to see whether the noise is fish or fowl. :eek: Make sure you also post the result if it barks like a dog. Either way it would be a CCE issue... if you set a maximum bitrate of 9000 you should never see a value over 9000.

[Fr4nz]

Originally posted by DDogg
Speaking of dead fish, or maybe, "something that walks like a duck", I find it interesting that matrix revolution has 3 or 4 killer bitrate peaks in the first 1 minute. My old Apex glitches precisely at the start of each of them and then continues fine. The encode was done with a 10 bias and 0-9000 and these are instantaneous peaks from 0 to 9800 within 2 or 3 frames. Gee, do I hear something quacking?

I'll redo the encode tonight with a higher bias and 300-7500 to see whether the noise is fish or fowl. :eek:

DDogg recommended values for bias are between 20 (suggested for low bitrates) and 30 (for high bitrates). Personally I used 25 for Matrix Revolution (PAL) and the encoded result was VERY good.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Fr4nz
DDogg recommended values for bias are between 20 (suggested for low bitrates) and 30 (for high bitrates). Personally I used 25 for Matrix Revolution (PAL) and the encoded result was VERY good. He makes a good point. I think in version 0.42 I will set the default to 25. Reading the text below from the CCE manual you'd have a higher probability of large bitrate fluctuations at lower settings -- but lower values will also have a smaller lower Q fluctuation:

"The encoder allocates bits based on the original evaluation standard, so that all images have the same visual quality. Changing the value of the Bias part breaks into this evaluation standard. 0 to 100 can be set here. The initial value is 30. As the value becomes smaller, more bits are allocated to complicated scenes, and at value 0, the bitrate fluctuation is largest."


ADDED LATER: Interesting. I'd already set my value to 25 in the INI file.

[jdobbs]

One way to answer this conclusively if you are using one of the SP versions of CCE and you still have the directory created by DVD-RB (after phase II)...

First find out which .AVS has the offending section of the movie in it and remember the name

1. Open up a new text file with notepad.
2. Open the REBUILDER.ECL file.
3. Cut and past the first 3 lines (the header and one blank line) into the text file.
4. Go down through the entries (each starts with [Item] and ends just before the next [Item]) and select the entry that represents the offending section of the movie.
5. Cut and paste that section into the text file.
6. Save the text file at "test.ecl"
7. Drag and drop "test.ecl" into CCE.
8. Double-click on the file in CCE and encoder settings will come up.
9. Click on the "Advanced" or "Bit Allocation" button (it depends on the version.
10. The tables at the bottom will tell you the maximum bitrate applied, you can also scroll through the entire stream and see the relationship of bitrate and Q.

[Fr4nz]

Originally posted by jdobbs
He makes a good point. I think in version 0.42 I will set the default to 25. Reading the text below from the CCE manual you'd have a higher probability of large bitrate fluctuations at lower settings -- but lower values will also have a smaller lower Q fluctuation:

[CUT]

ADDED LATER: Interesting. I'd already set my value to 25 in the INI file.

So Jdobbs I suggest you to set in DVD-RB, as default, vbr_bias to 25 (instead of 10) and Quality_prec 15 (instead of 24). They were suggested also in CCE forum.

An another nice thing would be to reduce steps between the values we can choose. For example for vbr_bias we have steps of 5 units (15,20,25,etc.) which is too much IMHO. Same thing for Quality_prec.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Maybe it's good to remove it. But I feel this will not solve the problem completely. The layer brake in my case located approx. 30min apart from that scene. What’s funny, my Liteon2001 plays fine that part. But less noticeable stutter observed along the movie on both machines. What puzzles me more is the DVD2AVI reports 99% film. This is the second movie done with DVD-RB that shows this anomaly. Could it be something wrong in my setup?

az Alex Z -- thanks for a good piece of detective work in using DVD2AVI. I've found a bug related to this and it will be posted as a part of 0.42. I'm not 100% sure it is what you've identified as your problem -- but it probably is. It definitely is the reason you're seeing inconsistency between DVD2AVI results.

[DDogg]

Originally posted by Fr4nz - DDogg[,] recommended values for bias are between 20 (suggested for low bitrates) and 30 (for high bitrates). Personally I used 25 for Matrix Revolution (PAL) and the encoded result was VERY good. Fr4nz and all, yep, that is where I was going. My concern is attempting to diagnose problems reported, especially with default values. One of DVD-rb's main target audiences is inexperienced people who want a simple solution to DVD backup.People experienced with CCE understand the effects of bias values, but many inexperienced people depend on the defaults.

The default of 10 may contribute to some of the reports and that's the only one that is important when first diagnosing a problem. The word "stuttering" can mean different things to different people. Jdobbs has dealt with, one by one, quite a few things that fixed individual reports of "stuttering" each of which had nothing to do with other reports of "stuttering". My thinking was that a few of these lingering reports may be caused by "peak bitrate glitching", especially on older players that have 2x readers and cannot deal with an instantaneous bitrate peak of too high a peak value.

jdobbs, I'll spend some time comparing the bitrate peaks of the two encodes and test todays on my old apex 503. I suspect it will not glitch with the larger bias value, but will let you know for sure. Certainly the default value should be increased to the 20-25 range.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Alex Z -- thanks for a good piece of detective work in using DVD2AVI. I've found a bug related to this and it will be posted as a part of 0.42. I'm not 100% sure it is what you've identified as your problem -- but it probably is. It definitely is the reason you're seeing inconsistency between DVD2AVI results.

Sorry for the delayed answer. Here is the both d2v's
Hope this will help.

Original
7 6 2D77B 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 6 2D7B7 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 6 2D7EC 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 6 2D813 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2D82C 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D868 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D881 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D98C 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2DAA5 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2DBB9 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2DCD0 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2DDE4 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2DED6 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 6 2DFBC 2 3
7 6 2E016 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0AC 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0BF 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 9

FINISHED


DVD-RB
7 3 43DE4 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43E16 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43E44 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43E72 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43E9F 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43EC9 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43EEF 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 43F12 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 43F35 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43F4E 3 0 1 2
7 3 43F62 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 43F94 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 4404D 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 440D8 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44160 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 441E3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44266 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 442E6 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44367 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 443EF 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 44412 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 4442D 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 9

FINISHED



az

[DDogg]

btw, the INI entry "max_bitrate=7500" is not being transfered to the ECL. Min_bitrate is being transferred. (value was for testing purposes ONLY. Do not use for encoding)

[Fr4nz]

So the max_bitrate parameter doesn't work? It was useful...

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by Fr4nz
So the max_bitrate parameter doesn't work? It was useful...

Edit rebuilder.ecl in notepad. Replace vbr_brate_max=9000 with vbr_brate_max=xxxx (where xxxx is desired bitrate). Do it at your own risk.:rolleyes:

[DDogg]

Alex Z, the point was that it is not working :)

[Fr4nz]

Can jdobbs fix it?? :) :)

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by DDogg
Alex Z, the point was that it is not working :)

Could it be due to dvd compliance flag was set on?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Could it be due to dvd compliance flag was set on? No, they aren't related.

@DDogg So it's staying 9000?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
btw, the INI entry "max_bitrate=7500" is not being transfered to the ECL. Min_bitrate is being transferred. (value was for testing purposes ONLY. Do not use for encoding) I just tried it and it worked for me. Are you sure you put it in the [Options] area of the INI?

[DDogg]

I just tried it and it worked for me. Are you sure you put it in the [Options] area of the INI? yep, but I was using one version back of eclcce. instead of 181. I would not think that would make a difference. Here is what I had:

[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=7500

(testing only. Do not use these values for encoding)

[wmansir]

It worked for me when I put it at the end of [options], but if I put it at the very end of the file, in the [audio] section, it didn't work. I'll try it at the beginning of [options] and see how it goes.

EDIT: It worked there too, odd. Are you closing/reopening Rebuilder when you change the .ini file? I think it only reads those options on startup.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
yep, but I was using one version back of eclcce. instead of 181. I would not think that would make a difference. Here is what I had:

[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=7500

(testing only. Do not use these values for encoding) Is there more than one [Options] section? A lot of the other values fall into [Options] and it will only search the first occurance.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by wmansir
It worked for me when I put it at the end of [options], but if I put it at the very end of the file, in the [audio] section, it didn't work. I'll try it at the beginning of [options] and see how it goes.

EDIT: It worked there too, odd. Are you closing/reopening Rebuilder when you change the .ini file? I think it only reads those options on startup. That's correct.

[DDogg]

Give wmansir the prize cigar - yeah, was very late last night and I suppose I was tired. Made the mod and started the process before retiring.

Probably just as well, as my encode turned out as 300-9000 with bias 20. It played fine on the old Apex. Something like this can always be a one off fluke. If it is a problem with low bias, others will verify it sooner or later. It sounds like the default bias will be raised, so that would deal with it nicely.

Speaking of 7500, noticed when there is a 1 frame ecl, the average bitrate is 7500 as well as the Max bitrate. Is that as it should be? These are just the black screens. Just curious more than anything as the number popped out at me.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
Give wmansir the prize cigar - yeah, was very late last night and I suppose I was tired. Made the mod and started the process before retiring.

Probably just as well, as my encode turned out as 300-9000 with bias 20. It played fine on the old Apex. Something like this can always be a one off fluke. If it is a problem with low bias, others will verify it sooner or later. It sounds like the default bias will be raised, so that would deal with it nicely.

Speaking of 7500, noticed when there is a 1 frame ecl, the average bitrate is 7500 as well as the Max bitrate. Is that as it should be? These are just the black screens. Just curious more than anything as the number popped out at me. I calculate based on the reduction ratio, the original size, and target size to get the bitrate. Sometimes the calculated result is higher than the maximum -- so it is trimmed to the max bitrate.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I have one now that doesn't match. Are you talking about the final "FINISHED" line at the end of the file?


@jdobbs

v.42. I'm about to burn a rw disk. Visually it looks identical to the source (Both source and DVD-RB show 1 or more interlaced frames somewhere @26min from the start by using DVD2AVI. Don't ask me how this possible. So it means that DVD-RB is now correctly recognizes every frame.)

Just out of curiosity, I'm comparing both d2v at the end. Are they should exactly match?

Source
7 6 2D316 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D39D 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D420 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D49A 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D512 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D582 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D5ED 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D64F 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D6A4 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D6EE 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D737 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D77B 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D7B7 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D7EC 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D813 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D82C 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D868 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2D881 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2D98C 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DAA5 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DBB9 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DCD0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DDE4 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DED6 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2DFBC 0 1 2 3
7 6 2E016 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0AC 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0BF 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

FINISHED 100.00% FILM





DVD-RB .42 output
7 3 43D03 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43D3D 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43D77 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43DB2 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43DED 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43E27 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43E60 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 43E8D 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 43EB0 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43EC9 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43EDC 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 43F14 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 43FBF 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 4404B 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 440D3 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 44158 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 441DC 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 4425E 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 442E2 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44361 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44392 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 443AD 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

FINISHED 100.00% FILM


az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
@jdobbs

v.42. I'm about to burn a rw disk. Visually it looks identical to the source (Both source and DVD-RB show 1 or more interlaced frames somewhere @26min from the start by using DVD2AVI. Don't ask me how this possible. So it means that DVD-RB is now correctly recognizes every frame.)

Just out of curiosity, I'm comparing both d2v at the end. Are they should exactly match?

az No, the D2V's should not be expected to match, but the final FINISHED line should... The reason the rest doesn't match is a result of the reencoding... the I-FRAME and/or temporal sequence may be different. But that means nothing within a cell.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
No, the D2V's should not be expected to match, but the final FINISHED line should...

7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 2 9
7 3 443AD 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

@jdobbs

So, does it mean there still a problem? My LiteOn2001 has no more stutter with DVD-RB output. But Sony DVP-NC655P still has a much less noticeable one. I'll also test it with Philips DVR72 tonight.

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 2 9
7 3 443AD 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

@jdobbs

So, does it mean there still a problem? My LiteOn2001 has no more stutter with DVD-RB output. But Sony DVP-NC655P still has a much less noticeable one. I'll also test it with Philips DVR72 tonight.

az No. I think you misunderstood. What I meant was the line that reads "FINISHED 100.00% FILM" should match. I've compared the Progressive, TFF, and RFF output of several movies and they all are a frame-for-frame match.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
No. I think you misunderstood.

Believe me it happens to me a lot :D

Could the single, the most noticeable stutter still be related to layer break? I know you removed it in .41. Now it's about 1/4 of the second. (was 1/2)

Added: I can probably use Philips to record Sony's (analog) output with 'on screen' turned on and later make small avi. Let me know if you are interested

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Believe me it happens to me a lot :D

Could the single, the most noticeable stutter still be related to layer break? I know you removed it in .41. Now it's about 1/4 of the second. (was 1/2)

Added: I can probably use Philips to record Sony's (analog) output with 'on screen' turned on and later make small avi. Let me know if you are interested

az I've gotten a couple of reports that the layer break is not being removed sometimes. I must be doing something wrong in the way I'm removing it.

[hoozdapimp]

I'm glad to see this is being worked on, and I hope it is fixed soon...this is one reason why I still have to use Shrink...I get these annoying stuttering problems with my DVD's...thanks for the awesome product JDobbs, expect a donation if I can ever get it to work without stuttering! :)

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I've gotten a couple of reports that the layer break is not being removed sometimes. I must be doing something wrong in the way I'm removing it.


@jdobbs

After running DVD-RB's output thru shrink (no recompress), Ifoedit does not show layer break flag anymore but disk still has the problem.

Philips DVDR72 shows problem differently. It's like The Matrix's glitch which a cat. The 2-3 sec. scene being repeated twice then continues normally. Also before removing the flag if you 2x click on the chapter where layer break take place (Ifoedit) it plays a completely different scene. That scene has no problem playing. If my observation is confusing fill free to contact me for more details.

az

[Joergen]

Luckily I've been running almost if not all my discs through DVDShrink removing subs and audio (a recent disc I did had 250MB of subtitles .. 20MB tracks for each language!) so shrink has removed the layer break already when I put it through dvd-rb.

Hope jdobbs nails that thing, or just remove the layerbreakremoval if it causes more problems than its worth :)

I remember how dvdshrink avoided the question of layerbreak removal for months.. there might be a reason for that.

[AzraelsCurse]

I want to start off by saying fantastic work jdobbs! DVD-RB is a great program, and really coming along.
However I've been seeing the same things that Alex Z describes he sees on his Sony when playing DVD-RB backups on my Sony DVP-NS725P. 95% of the stuttering was fixed with version .42, however there are still a couple spots that consistantly stutter. I don't think it has anything to do with the layer break since it's more than 1 spot(2 spots in Armageddon), plus I've tried running it through DVDShrink to remove the layer break, then running it through DVD-RB and it still does the same thing. The backup plays perfectly in all other dvd players that I have though. I've backed up plenty of DVD's with DVDShrink and IC8 and have not had any stutter problem on the Sony(DVD-RB is so much better though :)). I've also created several DVD's from DV footage and had no stutter problem.
I have tried using rejig with DVD-RB a while back and don't remember seeing any stutter. I'll have to test it again to verify. I tried a couple different versions of CCE and they all do it. Quenc I've only tried once but at that time there was major stutter and the quality and speed was far off from CCE so I haven't yet played with it any further.(definitly impresive for a free encoder though)
It's strange that my other players don't have issues, but that the sony only has issues with DVD-RB backups.
I want to add that the stutter is not bad, almost overlookable even, but it is there.

[AzraelsCurse]

tested again with rejig and it does produce the same stutter as the CCE encodes, at the same 2 places in Armageddon. tested IC8 again, no stutter, but intrestingly a bit slower than DVD-RB using 2 pass CCE SP 2.67 on Dual Xeons(since it's not multithreaded), not to mention lesser quality.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by AzraelsCurse
but intrestingly a bit slower than DVD-RB using 2 pass CCE SP 2.67 on Dual Xeons

Heh, now there's an interesting concept: A top quality encoder being faster than a transcoder :D

I'm almost there using RBFarm and four PCs of varying speed.

AzraelsCurse: I was looking at building an encoding-only PC to use with RBFarm and didnt even think of dual processors! Does CCE really use two processors to their full capacity? That way I could buy one ATX case and PSU instead of two.

[AzraelsCurse]

Using DVD-RB with Dual 2.66 Xeon's w/HT enabled, CCE's Speed rating is usually around 3.80, but varies a little above and below. Processor usage is usually in the upper 80% to lower 90% range, Memory usage is usually near 550MB. Now if AVISYNTH was multithreaded I wonder what kind of difference it would make. :)
Dual processors are definitely very nice and I highly reccomend it, however it's possible that you may be able to build 2 decent systems for what it costs to build 1 dual processor system. The 2cpu.com message board is excellent for questions and info if you're thinking about puting together a dual processor system.

[Joergen]

Thanks!

I noticed that especially the motherboards seem twice as expensive as two similar mobos for single CPU :D I could look at buying a used rig.

[Fenix]

Hello jdobbs,

I still have problems.

I'm using version Beta 0.45.
I tried to make a backup of "American History" Europe Region2 PAL, and I used a PS2 to watch the movie (It's not a media problem, I tried several) and I can only see the first seconds of each chapter going directly to the next chapter, and so on till the end of the movie.

One strange coincidence, the movie has a lot of cells ( there are more than 700 small m2v files ) although the movie has only +/- 1h:45 min.

What could be causing this??

Regards,

Fenix (or FJorgeR)

PS: This was the only title causing this, all others were fine ;).
If you need more details, tell me what, ok?
Continue the great work you have been done so far (I sent a very small donation Sunday using the mail fjorger@......., I know it's small but it's better than nothing at all).

[RB]

Fenix, no crossposting please.

[robgarib]

I have the same problem of Fenix.
I've tried with version 0.45+cce Kill Bill vol.1 and the video stop at the beginning of the first chapter on my philips dvd612.
Tonight i'll try reinstalling version 0.39 (where all working) and then i'll see what happen.

[Fenix]

Originally posted by RB
Fenix, no crossposting please.

Sorry :( , you are right, it could lead to confusion.
Do you want me to delete one of the messages posted?

Regards,

PS: I'm not at Home, so I can't see if they have a lot of "22222" or not.
But I will tell you later on.

BTW Have you a suspicion about what could be causing this?

Regards,

Fenix (FJorgeR)

[RB]

Let's simply continue discussing this in the other thread.

[wmansir]

Well my DVD-RW's finally came and the STUTTERING IS GONE! http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/realhappy/luxhello.gif

I'm sorry I doubted you jdobbs. Well, I didn't actually doubt you, I just didn't trust you enough to waste a dvd-r on...which actually sounds worse. :D But in my defense I'm very very cheap.

I watched a whole movie, and about 60 minutes of extras. The only problem I encountered was one instance of dropped audio, but it could have been my cheap player just hiccuping because it only happened once.

The only bad news is these new RW's are no better than the one that came with my recorder, as I encountered errors after the 4GB mark in my standalone. It plays completely fine in the recorder, so perhaps that is a limitation of my standalone and RW discs.

[puddy]

Originally posted by wmansir
The only bad news is these new RW's are no better than the one that came with my recorder, as I encountered errors after the 4GB mark in my standalone. It plays completely fine in the recorder, so perhaps that is a limitation of my standalone and RW discs. At this point I do not trust DVD-RW's as a way to test. They are too flaky in my standalone players, which are several different Apex versions. And they do not play at all in my older Sony DVP-C650D.

I use DVD-R Ritek-03's exclusively and I have been very happy with them.

Just my 2 cents.

puddy

[quantum]

Originally posted by wmansir
The only bad news is these new RW's are no better than the one that came with my recorder, as I encountered errors after the 4GB mark in All the 2x -RWs I used and tested are not that great. I've had better luck with Ritek +RW's 2.4x. I also test in my liteon drive using kprobe and the +RW's definitely score better.

[Fenix]

Originally posted by AzraelsCurse
tested again with rejig and it does produce the same stutter as the CCE encodes, at the same 2 places in Armageddon. tested IC8 again, no stutter, but intrestingly a bit slower than DVD-RB using 2 pass CCE SP 2.67 on Dual Xeons(since it's not multithreaded), not to mention lesser quality.


Hi AzraelsCurse,

I have the same problem with Armageddon PAL Region2!
It's jumping all the time!
Did you manage to do it using DVDRB?
I Think I have to use the older Big3 method for this one.

Regards,

Fenix (FJorgeR).

[AzraelsCurse]

Fenix, nothing I have tried has made any difference. It still stutters. It's actually fairly minor in Armageddon for me(NSTC R1), however as I have stopped testing every possible combination of things with that movie and tried others, I'm actually noticing stutter even more in other movie's, and even now in players other than my Sony. Even my Apex stutters with some movies. I've been testing vs IC8 mostly. No stutter with IC8, but of course the quality isn't as good. I have also started to notice what some others have mentioned, where if you just fast forward through the movie, it might just skip to the next chapter.

[MysticE]

For what it's worth my JVC (progressive scan model) has no problems with Rebuilder discs. Earlier builds only had the stuttering problem in my Sampo 612n though, but this seems to have stopped now with the latest build (although I've yet to watch a disc from start to finish).

I've been playing around with DVD2DVD-R 1.81 of late (a movie only CCE program) and have been getting excellent results with discs that work great in PowerDVD and the JVC. But in my Sampo 612n I get a major stutter/glitch when advancing through the chapters (it will repeat a few seconds right after the chapter change).

I friend lent me DVD he had made with Clone, when playing in my JVC the rewind/ff would not work, yet it played correctly in the Sampo. I have a few DVD's I'd made with IC8 (removing a few logo's and trailers) that always worked right in the Sampo. But a few of these DVD's choke in the JVC (in normal playing, rather than go to the next chapter it would repeat the one it was on).

I don't know if any of this info means anything, but it seems like universal 100% compatability might just be impossible.

[Joergen]

Well the originals are "universally compatible", and if a player chokes on an original (that is in good shape and mastered to standard) then the player should not bare the DVD logo.

Using DVDShrink, quality media (preferably DVD-R) and quality burning software you can reach universal compatibility aswell.

Perhaps the discs that randomly choke the JVC are bad media? JVC is not high in my book for good reading mechanisms (had a few car cd/mp3-players with bad results).

[loosenut]

I own a JVC XV-NA77 (progressive) and it's 'readability' is 99.9999% perfect even with super cheap DVD-Rs.
And picture quality is, well.... read some reviews. 12 bit converter ;)
Never had a problem with IC7-8, DVDShrink or DVD2DVDR 1.81 on it.
The latest versions of DVDRebuilder work absolutely perfectly on it.
However, almost all DVDRB backups either choke on first chapter or no buttons work after hitting play on my Philips 743 :(

[Joergen]

Ok I believe you loosenut :)
Funny, here we are debating if a real brand name player is good or not and 9 out of 10 people have as their only player some Cyberhome, Amstrad or other POS :D

When I shopped for my second player (that became a Sony DVP NS410) after extensive testing with dvd-rw, -r and +r discs at several shops (that had players hooked up to tv's for testing) I noticed that Philips players were pretty poor. They choked on DVD-SVCD and DVB-DVD resolutions (you had to pull the plug to reset the players :D). So if a Philips doesnt work I'm not surprised. I trust them only to make kitchen appliances.

[jdobbs]

There might be an occasional exception (usually a bad disc). But as the developer, I have to make the assumption that if a DVD isn't playing right on all players it is DVD-RB's fault, and look at a way to fix it. My goal it to get this thing 100% correct for version 1.00 -- and I appreciate all the help I'm getting from the beta testers in helping it get there.

[loosenut]

@ Joergen:
Lol! True on all subjects :).
The Philips and the JVC are players No. 7 and 8 (I think), since I bought my first Panasonic a loooong time ago. Somewhere in between there were two Cyberhomes too :)
What I mean is that players (standalones) in my case come and go. Backups stay. So, it's essential to me that my backups work on my future players. That's the whole point of backups, isn't it?
I'm glad jdobbs sees it that way. I'm sure he'll figure it out.

P.S.
Indeed the Philips' are notorious for 'choking' on out of standard discs, be they CDs or DVD-+Rs. They even choke on SVCDs made with DVD2SVCD with .....Philips Standard selectable subtitles!!
But on DVDs, they stick to the DVD standards, so I keep the 743 in my bedroom as a testing player for absolute future compatibility. I know from experience now, that if a disc doesn't work on it, it will probably have problems on other players too.