Video cards with the best TV out ?

[ChristianHJW]

Hi,

i was pretty demoralized by the crappy video quality from my MSI Mega 180 barebone, via the built in S-Video out, when being displayed on my TV. Admittedly, its a pretty old TV, but it has a SCART input and never let me down so far, so i assume the quality of the TV out from the Geforce4 ( onboard on the MSI Mega 180 ) is not so good, also because it doesnt have a BT 787 or similar as dedicated TV out chip, but uses 'on-chip MV' signal generating from the Nvidia Geforce4.

Now, it seems i cant get around to buying a decent video card, until i can buy myself a new TV with DVI input ( sheduled for next christmas :) ).

Any advice or experiences ? ATI cards ?

[stax76]

I might be wrong but I think all video cards and dvb cards have a crappy TV out, I had a ATI, Matrox and a antique SkyStar 1 card. I must admit I'm clueless about the tech behind this. Maybe the digital future looks better, I hope it very much

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yep, it's really quite sad that images puked out of a video card via TV out are so poor!

Were you hoping to use the TV output as a permanent replacement for a PC monitor. Or are you using it just to watch DVD's and your encodes?

Cheers

[DAvenger]

I have both NVIDIA and ATI cards with tv out and they all look the same to me. :rolleyes:

[SeeMoreDigital]

I find it quite bizarre that video cards with TV-out don't offer RGB output as standard. Either via 'backplate' dongle or onboard connection.

That said I have read that the new Medion Titanium MD8083 has an rear RGB scart connector, which uses their own spec version of ATI's 128MB Radion 9800XL... so things might be looking up!

Cheers

[stax76]

maybe there are other reasons why the quality is poor, for instance the way how the signal is processed

[Soulhunter]

I'm very happy with my Radeon's composite output... :)

Looks much better than with my old GF2MX !!!


@S.M.D.

As you have a Sigma Xcard, how is its output quality ???


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
@S.M.D.
As you have a Sigma Xcard, how is its output quality ???It's truly awesome!

Sadly, the Xcard (via Sigma's Xmedia Player) can only output Mpeg1, 2 and 4 video streams (with accompanying audio). However when using JovePlayer as a front end the Xcard becomes a much more flexible piece of kit.

Satellite/terrestrial TV output and capturing is possible, together with playback of just about all the popular audio and video streams, in any container. You can even view your photo's and surf the net via your TV.

That said in order to use the additional features that JovePlayer offers you do need a speedy PC (any P4 will do)!

It's only downfall is that you can't dispense with your PC monitor altogether.

Cheers

[Soulhunter]

So, you can only output stuff that the card can encode ???

Hmm, then someone should write a tool to bypass the Xcard's decoding... :)

Btw, Is it possible to use the Xcard for video-output only n' passing the audio to your soundcard then ???


Bye

[jim1595]

Typically ATI has been known for their tv output quality for video cards. I was very pleased with my ati rage fury pro (btw, what a horrible name) as far as the image quality that came out. I've been completely blown away by the eVGA FX5900se's (it's also called the 5900xt by some companies) dualview feature that replaced it. The s-video output that comes out is very crisp and clear. Plus, i'm able to zoom in on certain areas of the screen, stretch and shrink a little better than the ati card, and i don't have to fiddle with refresh rates and turn on and off output settings. The thing that really impressed me though is that in fullscreen Media Player Classic's menus don't show up and the mouse cursor is always hidden. This may be sort of an apples to oranges comparison since i'm comparing a card made in 2003/2004 to a card probably made the day after they switched from tubes to solid state components. So, while this is in no way an objective side by side comparison, I hope my personal experience helps you in some way. If you're putting this in a cheapo computer or a dedicated box that won't be used for gaming you might want to check out the Rage Fury Pro vivo edition if it even still exists or you might want to consider the 5900se (newegg's got it for 189 last i checked) if you're looking for a good gaming card to go along with the tv output.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I wonder why it is that ATI (with their 9800 range) still only offers an RGB TV output dongle for people living in the 'US and Canada'...

Maybe this is what Medion have overcome with their own spec version of the card (along with RGB scart). If so, lets hope there will be more video cards with RGB scart output appearing soon!

Originally posted by Soulhunter
...Btw, Is it possible to use the Xcard for video-output only n' passing the audio to your soundcard then ??? I actually ran my HTPC without a sound card for several months.

Most audio streams such as 6Ch AC3, 6Ch DTS pass thru, 2Ch WAV, 2Ch MP3, 2Ch AAC (in MP4) are processed by the Xcard and passed out either via its onboard 'electrical' digital output, or 2Ch analogue output.

Other audio streams can be processed by the PC and passed thru' the cards outputs just like non spec video streams can... Last night (for instance) I managed to watch some test encodes using VSofts H.264 codec!

Cheers

[communist]

Hmmm ATI cards have always given me nice crisp and clear picture, I havent connected them yet with a simple RCA connector - always S-Video :)

[ChristianHJW]

I guess its well possible that the missing S-Video connector of my TV is the reason why its looking so poor, maybe in combination with a not-so-good S-Video out of the onboard Geforce4.

The available adapters that you can buy everywhere for 2 - 12,- € ( yes, i found a x6 price span for the SAME little thinggies, all are passive ) dont seem like a proper solution but only a kind of workaround, as all they do is a little 470 pF capacitor solded between pins 2 and 3 of the S-Video connector, to couple the chrominance with the luminance signal. The result, as i said, looks rather poor.

Now, Tvtool allows you to set the TV out to 'composite' instead of 'S-video', if your video card has something like a BT 878 chip for the TV out. It seems this is the key for my problem. Now

who knows a video card with a BT 878 chip ( Connexant ) for the TV out ?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
who knows a video card with a BT 878 chip ( Connexant ) for the TV out ?

I found some info here: -

http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/supportedcards.html

But I think it's not very up to date...


Cheers

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I found some info here: -
http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/supportedcards.html
But I think it's not very up to date...
Cheers
Thanks, but this list seems to be mainly focussed on capturing TV or VCR via the analog in, so these cards are capture cards ....

[avih]

chris, r u sure bt878 is used for tv-out?? akaif, that's only in/capture chip...

[jim1595]

I'm pretty sure that the bt878 chip is only for video input: http://www.conexant.com/servlets/DownloadServlet/100119a.pdf?FileId=542

As per TvTool's site you might want to look for a hercules mx400:

"I recommend cards with the CX25871 TV chip from Conexant. This is the most capable chip at the moment and offers the best TV quality. I can´t say on which cards it is found definetely, as most manufacturers don´t use a certain chip. So you should check it out at your local dealer. As far as I know Hercules cards always come with this chip, also the ASUS 7100 pro/TV (MX400) seems to have it. Also the GF4 Ti 4200 from Pixelview uses the CX25871 (all without guarantee).

(without guarantee).

Note: Frequently it is asked if this statement is still up-to-date. So here the confirmation: The CX25871 is still the best TV chip and should be first choice when investing in a new graphics card!"

Here's a thought too, if you're looking for an active svideo decoder look for a SVHS vcr lying around somewhere as that's where the svideo connector orignated from. You could then place that in series between your tv and HTPC and have your signal converted to whatever you need pretty much.

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
The available adapters that you can buy everywhere for 2 - 12,- € ( yes, i found a x6 price span for the SAME little thinggies, all are passive ) dont seem like a proper solution but only a kind of workaround, as all they do is a little 470 pF capacitor solded between pins 2 and 3 of the S-Video connector, to couple the chrominance with the luminance signal. The result, as i said, looks rather poor.If the output of your GC is one of thus 7/8 pin ones (instead of a "real" S-Video 4pin) then there is already a way for "real composite" output !!!

Read the links posted here... (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72673) ;)


Bye

[ChristianHJW]

Strange enough, the German version of the TVtool TV out chipset comparison is much much more detailled, and a perfect source of information :

http://tvtool.info/german/tvchips.htm

Sorry for those of you who cant understand German, but it seems clear to me now that only a BT 869 or CX25871 based video card will become my next card ;) ....

EDIT : tvtool is really a great source of information ;) : http://tvtool.cust.nearlyfreespeech.net/cardbase_h.htm

[idicula]

i use a dvi adapter to send output from my computer to my hdtv
and it looks as good as on a computer screen
i have a radeon 8500
hope that helps

[ChristianHJW]

Short update, as already reported on my other thread about the multimedia barebone :

I found out that one of my old video cards, a ELSA Gladiac 511 has a BT 869 chip for the TV out, and guess what, the picture quality is simply amazing now :). Of course, you need TVtool to activate the composite out via software instead of S-Video, but then the quality simply rocks :D !

Still, i will try to get a CX 25871 based card now anyhow, as the TVtool page says its even better with respect to picture crispness and contrast, and as always i am only content with the best possible solution ;) ....

[Sharro]

I'm happy with the quality of mine.

My past experience in chronological order:

GeForce 2 Gts Tvout - great quality but stupid drivers...
Thrust Scan Converter - wonderfull quality, very easy setup, driver independent, affected the signal sent to monitor (it's passtrough was awful), lost ntsc/pal setting from time to time
Focus Enhancement Tview Gold scan converter - great quality, not so easy setup, impossible to avoid small black bars on top and bottom now matter how you set it up in PAL (looks like ntsc works well)
Ati Radeon 9700 pro - very good quality, easy setup, BUT 23,976 FPS xvid's (dunno about other codecs as I don't use them) always have some horizontal black stripes when horizontal pans occur. Annoying....

Does anybody have a solution for this problem ?

I'm using MPC latest version with rendering set to DX9 (I need it for subtitles) and 640x480 60Hz resolution. Pal movies play very well and the black stripes only show up on very sudden VERTICAL pans.

I ain't forcing any output (RGB, YV12,etc) on mpc.

Any help appreciated.

EDIT:
Guess the answer always ends at Reclock http://ogo.nerim.net/reclockfilter/ or PowerStrip... that I kinda hate cause its not idiot proof :-) and I borked 1 of my Windows installs

END EDIT.

All the best,


Sharro
AKA Xvid Tribalistic Fan

[SeeMoreDigital]

Are there any video cards out there that can output an RGB signal to a 'PAL' TV.

I have read on ATI's website that their AIW 9800 card can output RGB via a dongle, but this is only available to NTSC users!

Personally I don't need such a highly spec'd card (like the ATI AIW) because I don't need a card that can capture and I don't need a card that can play 3D games!

I would have thought that if it's M$'s intension to link PC's to TV's (all bow down to Windows Media Centre!), then we need video cards that can do this...

Composite is OK, S-video is better, but RGB rocks!

Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Are there any video cards out there that can output an RGB signal to a 'PAL' TV.Radeon, but you have to flash the GC's bios to make use of this... ;)


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Radeon, but you have to flash the GC's bios to make use of this... ;) That's very interesting.

Can you provide any further details please?

Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Sure... (http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon-tv-out/) ;)


SCART RGB - not only Matrox cards support standard TV-out in RGB format. :-) For more information see the forum at Radeon2.ru in the VIVO section.

Dont wanna try this with my new Radeon9800Pro... :rolleyes:

But maybe Ill try it with my Radeon9200VIVO the next weeks !!!


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Sure... (http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon-tv-out/) ;)Unfortunately, the link you provided shows information about high quality 'Composite and S-video' TV output!

There was a comment/link about RGB but it directed you to an Russian (I presume it's Russian) forum :(

So let me get this straight. At present, the only sure-fire-way of getting RGB TV signals from a video card to an PAL/SECAM RGB TV. Is by buying a Medion PC which has special version of an ATI 9800 card which you can't buy separately!

That's useful marketing :confused:

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
There was a comment/link about RGB but it directed you to an Russian forum :(
The only stuff you need are thus two tools... ;)

- BIOS Flasher (http://hrc.webzeppelin.hu/-=Utils=-/ATIflash_v2-By_T2k!/atiflash2-By_T2k!.rar)

- Radeon Editor (http://www.radeon2.ru/bios/util/radedit/radedit11d.zip)


Btw, I found this (http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_scart/) useful info !!!


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
The only stuff you need are thus two tools... ;)

- BIOS Flasher (http://hrc.webzeppelin.hu/-=Utils=-/ATIflash_v2-By_T2k!/atiflash2-By_T2k!.rar)

- Radeon Editor (http://www.radeon2.ru/bios/util/radedit/radedit11d.zip)


Btw, I found this (http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_scart/) useful info !!! Thanks, but I'm still not entirely clear how the RGB signal gets from your ATI video card to your TV.

Is there a special output connection on the ATI card. Or do you have to buy ATI HDTV RGB dongle (that connects to the DVI port). Or will I have to make a cable, like the one you provided a link too?

Incidentally, a couple of years ago I did make an VGA to RGB lead. However, instead of using the 'composite sync/return sync' from video cards VGA output port. I used the sync from the video cards composite output port.

However, in order to make everything work properly, you have to configure the video cards settings to output video signals to both a PC monitor and a TV monitor at the same time!

As long as the TV gets a sync signal that it's happy with, it does not really matter where it comes from...

Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Good question... :confused:

Seems we need a Russian member to get some hints !!!


But for the VGA to RGB thing...

Would work for me, coz I can use the DVI output for my monitor !!!

There is also the possibility to use a DVI-2-VGA adapter... ;)


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Would work for me, coz I can use the DVI output for my monitor !!! When you say monitor. Do you have a DVI input on your TV or PC monitor?

Either way, there's no need for you to do anything connection wise. I have a DVI input on my plasma screen/monitor and when I've connected it to an video card with DVI output the quality of the picture is amazing!

That said, there are more people out there without DVI connections on there TV or PC monitors, than those with them. However, many people in Europe do have TV sets with scart RGB, so it's these people who may benefit quite a bit by being able to pull a decent RGB signal out of their PC's video card.

Interesting stuff anyway...

Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
When you say monitor. Do you have a DVI input on your TV or PC monitor? Meant, I can plug my PC-monitor to the GC's DVI-out... ;)

This way the VGA-out is free for a RGB-adapter -> TV !!!


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Meant, I can plug my PC-monitor to the GC's DVI-out... ;)

This way the VGA-out is free for a RGB-adapter -> TV !!! Now I understand...

[rc55]

Hmm... reading these threads reminded me of a project that has been going for a while called "MindCandy DVD" - essentially it was the production of a DVD which contained PC Demos (art shows with music, generally direct3d doing realtime visuals) - and from what I remember the production of the disc itself involved capturing the output from a VGA card of some sort and re-encoding it to mpeg-2.

Trixter, the main chap behind is something of a god at dealing with getting the best possible output from PC's for televisual use - so it might be worth having a look through the forums at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ for finding out how to get the best output from a PC to a TV - although this may be slightly out of context as his application was generally DOS based things.

Worth a peak for the most thorough of you people here! :)

Ruairi

[thegeby]

There is a guy in Australia that produces a circuit to change the VGA sync to a sync that the SCART understands and that fits in a SCART connector. I bought two from him, but have not had the time to put it all together. Do a google search for "Eviltim" and "MAME"

[Jvdhorst]

I've commented on this in a other thread:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75389

[SeeMoreDigital]

> thegeby and Jvdhorst,

We've already talked about doing what you guys are proposing in this thread, on this very page already (just 10 posts up) :rolleyes:

Cheers

[Jvdhorst]

@seemoredigital: Damn, that's a bit unfair imo :mad:.
I'm just complementing with my experience and referring to my other post. The method I describe there is a nearly perfect solution for me. And it's a OTHER variation on what was previously mentioned. It's an effort to help you and others further, take it or leave it...

[thegeby]

We've already talked about doing what you guys are proposing in this thread, on this very page already (just 10 posts up)
Provided you have a Radeon card....If I understand the circuit right, it is independent of the video hardware, as long as it can be controlled by Powerstrip.

[Jvdhorst]

Indeed, it's a h/v-sync (which all VGA cards have) to low voltage composite sync converter. I have built the thing but not tested it yet. I'll post the results, when I get to it. The radeon direct drive page feeds the TV with a TTL levelled composite sync, wich is a bit risky. It works in my case but I'm also gonna try a resistor in between.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Jvdhorst
Indeed, it's a h/v-sync (which all VGA cards have) to low voltage composite sync converter. I have built the thing but not tested it yet. I'll post the results, when I get to it... Or you could try the method I mentioned (immediately below Soulhunters post/link)!

It pulls the sync in from the composite TV out so you don't have to fart about with resistors and converters etc.

Cheers

[Jvdhorst]

It pulls the sync in from the composite TV out so you don't have to fart about with resistors and converters etc.

Indeed I thought of that option too, but how did you sync the TV and VGA signal to be constructed exactly the same. Was it luck? You would need a full PAL/NTSC spec interlaced RGB output on you VGA monitor perfectly timed with the TV out. And there is some electronics on you card in between. If I think about it, maybe it is possible, but probably heavily dependant on what kind of TV output converter is on your card. Also highly infeasable if you have a dualhead card (like the radeon 9700) with a different ramdac for the TV-output. Could you explain exactly how you did it? With what videocard?