VCD with SVCD resolution (Part 2)

[Antonio S.]

As I post in the first part of this theme, I had made a template for TMPGEnc to encode a NSTC VCD with SVCD resolution.
Settings and Procedure
1- Encode a VCD(film)(23.976 fps) with the following characteristics:
Video: Mpeg-2, 480 x 480, VBR cq 9, max bitrate 1600, min bitrate 0.
Audio: Mpeg-1 layer 2 @ 112 kbps, 44.1 mhz
Soften block noise=100, motion search precision="High Quality"
2- Demux
3- Mux as a vcd(non standard)
4- Burn with Nero as a vcd(non compliance) or use TSCV (vcd 2.0) to create a cue/bin file.

Advantages
1- quality is better than standard vcd, but not as good as regular SVCD
2- Motion scence is very smooth.
3- A 700Mb cd-r can hold about 100 min of movie
4- Can be play in DVD players that run at 1x speed and/or do not recognize SVCD format.

Disadvanteges
1- You have to demux and mux again as a VCD (non standard)
2- Not as good as SVCD
3- May not play correctly in some computers ( with some older versions of WinDVD)

History
When I first try to encode with this resolution, I use an regular vcd template (Mpeg-1 encoding) just changing the resolution (from 352X240 to 480x480). The resultant file doesn't play correctly in some DVD players ( specially in Apex and Panasonic units).Why? Maybe the SVCD scan offsets (included in the Mpeg-2 encoding)are needed for proper playback for this resolution. Remember this resolution is not a vcd standard.Some people in this and others forums think that mpeg-1 is better than mpeg-2 for this low bitrate encoding (I doubt it), but that is not the real issue. It doesn't matter what settings do you change when encoding with mpeg-1, the resultant file doesn't play correctly in some DVD players unless it is encode with mpeg-2.
If a template of the settings is needed, please post an E-Mail and I will send it to you. I get better results with TMPGEnc ver 12i.

Please post some results or modifications.

[Sherlock Holmes]

What is ur email ? please send me that template.
My email : m_golara@yahoo.com

[Antonio S.]

Look at your E-Mail...:)

[andrew007]

Please send me that template too.
I have a portable panasonic DVD player L-50 which doesn't play SVCD.
My email: crypto007@genion.de

& where can i found TMPGEnc ver 12i?!!

Thanks from germany

007

PS: I have PAL (25 FPS) 480 x 576

[zambelli]

I'd be interested in the template too. My e-mail address is zambelli@posluh.hr.

[kdiddy]

Also read here for further truth behind what is actually being done with this process and will you most likely NOT a see a marked improvment

http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=64237&forum=3

[Antonio S.]

Extracted from: http://icsl.ee.washington.edu/~woobin/papers/General/node2.html

"The MPEG-2 standard uses the same set of algorithms as MPEG-1, and has an additional support for interlaced video sources and scalability options. Although there are minor differences in the syntax, the MPEG-2 standard is conceptually a super-set of MPEG-1, and therefore we will describe both as the MPEG standard when the distinction is not necessary."

"As MPEG-2 is targeted for coding broadcast-quality video signals, it is necessary to digitize the source video at its full bandwidth, resulting in both even and odd field pictures in the sequence. Since these two fields are separated by a time interval, coding the sequence using the MPEG-1 algorithm does not produce good quality pictures as MPEG-1 assumes that there is no time difference between successive lines in the picture. The MPEG-2 standard provides a means of coding interlaced pictures by including two field-based coding techniques: field-based prediction and field-based DCT."

kdiddy: Your "topic review" speaks for itself...:)

[kdiddy]

your ignorance speaks for itself as well...I see you chose not to read any further and notice link that would have brought you here

http://viswiz.gmd.de/DVP/Public/deliv/deliv.211/mpeg/hi_str01.htm

get ya head out ya ass and use it for a second...IF you player supports mpeg-2 at 480x80...why would not play a SVCD made that way considering those ARE STANDARD SVCD specs???...because you choose to ignore that fact that it decodes/plays as an mpeg-1 one because of the HEADER on the file telling the decoder that the video information is squenced as a mpeg-1. So all the rest of what you are doing consisting with mpeg-2 gets ignore period. You making a glorified XVCD thats all...you get the same performance out of mpeg-1 at that same bitrate & resolution period....or do I need to provide other sources of information confirming that which of course you will choose to ignore...lets look at your suppose advantages shall we

"Advantages
1- quality is better than standard vcd, but not as good as regular SVCD"

as anyone with half brain would know considering that VCD bitrate is 1150 @ 352x240 and your bitrate is 1600 @ 480x480, THOSE are the causes for better picture, NOT it being an mpeg-2.

"2- Motion scence is very smooth."

Again, a result of higher bitrate, not mpeg-2.

"3- A 700Mb cd-r can hold about 100 min of movie"

COMPLETELY FALSE, you need to check your math & facts, 700MB hold 80 mins worth standard VCD information and again STANDARD VCD total bitrate (1150V + 224A) is 1374 kbps...thus using simple math, anything with a higher TOTAL bitrate results in less time on the disk & and anything with lower TOTAL bitrate will produce more time on the disk....therefore at your settings, with audio at 112, you video would have to be MAX of 800 bps in order to fit 100min on 1 CD....and you REALLY want me & others to believe that 800 bps @ 480x480 is going to be better than standard VCD of 1150 @ 352x240...thats laughable!....plus you propose a crappy CQ of 9 & max of 1600. ignoring the fact that using CQ it is very hard to know what you video bitrate will be...but for logic sakes, since you CLAIM better quality than VCD, that is only a result of more bitrate...so I will logically conclude that your video bitrate is ends up higher than 1150...with that in mind, if your higher than 1200 then you will get less than 80 mins per CD.

"4- Can be play in DVD players that run at 1x speed and/or do not recognize SVCD format."

Again do some researching first, the fact that it is encoded as mpeg2 has nothing to 1x speed. why, because 1x refers to a tranfer ratio, & that ratio being 1(150 bytes/s) or 2788 kbps...hmmm notice the reference to BITS here...I gaurantee that a mpeg1 encoded higher than the 1X barrier will not play just like an mpeg2 wouldnt...because it is a result of BITRATE not type of compression.

"Disadvanteges
2- Not as good as SVCD"

talk about contradicting yourself....you state this but yet your subject headings is "VCD with SVCD resolution"...so read this straight, I can make a video file at SVCD resolution but it wont be as good as SVCD...soooo whats the point of doing it??

"3- May not play correctly in some computers ( with some older versions of WinDVD)"

geee ummm could it be that WinDVD just like most DVD players gets a little confused when it is given mpeg-1 HEADER information but when it goes to look for that info its not there because the video is truly mpeg-2???....what a concept!..

bottom line man, you make misleading posts based on YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS alone, so whats good for you, doesnt always translate to being BETTER/GOOD to someone else. Come with some facts next time.

[Antonio S.]

True facts:

To kdiddy: I know that this dificult to you to undestand, but please try.

1- I have two DVD players (Apex 660 and Philips 910). The Philips doesn't recognise SVCD (Do you undestand that?). When I try to play a SVCD it just said "NO DISK". So trying to encode something better than VCD (352 x 240 @ 23.97 fps 1150 kbps) I increase resolution and bits per second. So what happens. I can not increase to much the bitrate. Do you know why? Beacuse this DVD player runs at 1X and at this speed it cannot delivers all the information that is needed if the bitrate is to high. Thats is how I get this bitrate (1600 ,so ,so ).Resolution? I cannot use any resolution that I like ( this is not your computer!)So I have to use resolutions acepted by a DVD player. An do you know what? My DVD player accepts 720 x 480 or 480 x 480. What happens next. I test results in my other DVD player ( Do you remember, the Apex model I just mention above). And what do I get? A jerky, desyncronice movie ( you know, rapid/slow movements, audio out of sync, etc.) . So then is when I use mpeg-2 encoding ( Do you understand? ) . But to burn it as a VCD I have to demux and mux again as a VCD (non standard). So results using mpeg-2 where very smooth and all problems where resolved ( Are you still with me?). I had made many encoding using this procedure and it really looks better than regular VCD.

2- That is better than regular SVCD? NO. Do you know why? Because svcd bitrate should be +/- 2600 kbps, but I cannot use that bitrate (Do you remember that very small but important problem="1X")

3- That I cannot encode 100min of mpeg file in a 700mb CD-R? Remember that standard VCD use CBR ( Do you know what is this? Constant Bit Rate). I am using VBR (Variable Bit Rate). Unless my 700mb CD-R's are bigger than yours, I don't see why you cannot do it.

So please, calm down. Instead of writing non sence, post your E-Mail and I will send you a template. If you are not satisfy with your own results post it. This way of encoding is not an standard, and there are many DVD players that may not play this (as with the Apex 3201, but why someone with a DVD player that can play SVCD will need to do this).

[kdiddy]

Again you REALY need to go research you terms and defintions..

1(x) = 75 sectors per sec. 1 sector = 2324 bytes, 1 byte = 8 bits, therefore 1(X) = 2788800 bits per second or 2788 kbps. dispute that, I would love to see you try. Thus if you TRULY have a 1X player, you can in theory raise your TOTAL bitrate to 2788 and it should play fine...PERIOD.

" Do you remember, the Apex model I just mention above). And what do I get? A jerky, desyncronice movie ( you know, rapid/slow movements, audio out of sync, etc.)"

thats your fault for buying a crap ass player

" But to burn it as a VCD I have to demux and mux again as a VCD (non standard). So results using mpeg-2 where very smooth and all problems where resolved ( Are you still with me?). I had made many encoding using this procedure and it really looks better than regular VCD."

yes I am still with you, have always been...and will always state just like anyone else who has any sense of what they speak of will tell you, you will ALWAYS get increase in quality NO MATTER if mpeg1/mpeg2 with HIGHER BITRATES. So of course it looks better, but again, NOT BECAUSE OF MPEG2, because of higher bitrate, plain and simple...making an mpeg-1 at 1600 480x480 will produce the same result on YOUR DVD PLAYER as will the mpeg2.

"2- That is better than regular SVCD? NO. Do you know why? Because svcd bitrate should be +/- 2600 kbps, but I cannot use that bitrate (Do you remember that very small but important problem="1X") "

yes, just like I remember that 1x = 2788 bps sec, so speed is not the problem, the problem is that you player doesnt support SVCD format...it does support the SPEED at which a SVCD would need to run.

"3- That I cannot encode 100min of mpeg file in a 700mb CD-R? Remember that standard VCD use CBR ( Do you know what is this? Constant Bit Rate). I am using VBR (Variable Bit Rate). Unless my 700mb CD-R's are bigger than yours, I don't see why you cannot do it."

LOL, This just adds even credence to show that you have utterly no clue on which you speak. VBR, means you specify an AVERAGE BITRATE & give a range for the encoder which allows the encoder to raise or lower the bitrate in order maintain quality throughout the clip. It will do this around the AVERAGE BITRATE that you specify, so that in the end, THAT IS YOUR bitrate while giving you a smaller file size than CBR. YOU WILL NEVER, I repeat NEVER, get a movie that is 100 min in length to fit on a 700MB/80 min CDR at 1600V+112A period. Again, simple math, I know this is will be new to you, but try & stay with me...

80 MIN CDR = roughly 793 MB for video program stream encoding, again 8 bits=1 byte, therefore 793MB=6344 mb. So each CDR will hold ~6344 mb (megabits) <- remember this #, we will refer to it later, still with me..good, so now lets take your TOTAL bitrate ~1600V+112A = 1717 bps (bits per second), also, 100 mins = 6000 secs....heres where you may get loss, this requires ALGEBRA skills. BITRATE multiplied by TIME equals total number of bits used for that time...got it??....so for you, 1717 bps * 6000 s = 10302000 or 10302 mb (megabits) total lentgh in bits of your movie clip...& last I checked 10302 mb is higher/larger than 6344 mb...so NO it will not fit. dont beleive me then use this bitrate calcualtor, http://www.vcdhelp.com/calc, or better yet, ask this question in the general discussion area and see what you get..LOL

"So please, calm down. Instead of writing non sence,"

A) I am calm, B) it is spelled NONSENSE, do you need a course in english too??, like I said, when you can come with some FACTS to back up your CLAIMS/OPINIONS then you may have ground to stand on, until, you are just providing an opinions period.

[BlackSun]

I don't like this. Please stop this or I'll close this thread...

[Antonio S.]

The template has been modified. For new template and tips just post your E-Mail.

Antonio S.

[vitualis]

Antonio,

I don't want to get between your argument with kdiddy, but you've mentioned this several times and it is incorrect.

A 1x DVD drive is fast enough to read a standard SVCD. 1x DVD does not equal 1x CD when reading a CD. Here's a small quotation from the DVD FAQ:

DVD physical spin rate is about 3 times faster than CD (that is, 1x DVD spin ~ 3x CD spin), but most DVD-ROM drives increase motor speed when reading CD-ROMs, achieving 12x or faster performance.

That is, even a 1x DVD will read a CD at AT LEAST 2x CD or greater. A SVCD is designed with a maximum bitrate with a 2x CD mechanism in mind (i.e., 150 sectors/s). Thus, even a 1x DVD drive WILL NOT have difficulty reading the CD fast enough to properly play a SVCD.

Regards.

[Antonio S.]

Vitualis:

You are right. Maybe the problem (in my Philips DVD player) is with his programing (firmware). It cannot play VCDs with bitrate above 1150 kbps (CBR).

Antonio S.

[vitualis]

That's entirely possible. A DVD player's limitations includes both the hardware limitations as well as what's in the firmware. If it is very strict on compliance, then you could have this problem.

Regards.

[Jerry]

Hi,

I'm very interested in this template as my dvd player will not play svcds.

Please email to me if you will

Thanks, Jerry

jerrymax6@aol.com

[Mars-L]

Hello,

The Philips not playing SVCD....
Might it be because of the directory names ???
Some players simply don't accept the;
Video directory being titled "MPEG2" but want it being named "MPEGAV" (standard for VCD)
And don''t accept the ENTIES.SVD file identified as "ENTRYVCD" but want it being named "ENTRYSVD" (standard for VCD)

You can simply change this i.e. in Nero 5.5.xx but clicking on the Compatibility button under tab VideoCD when creating an SVCD.

Greetz
JustMe2000

[Antonio S.]

Thank you Mars-L. I will try that...:)

[LAMOLA2001]

Hi,

I'm very interested in this template as my dvd player will not play svcds.

Please email to me if you will

Thanks, from Spain

lamola@wanadoo.es

[Mars-L]

Hello,

There ain't no template for Nero to rename the directories, it's a standard option.
Disable the wizard, in the appearing menu choose SVCD. On the first TAB hit the Compatibility button. And see there you can rename the SVCD directorys and filename to VCD standard. This does not involve the quality of the movie or anything like that.
BTW; As far as I know this is a new option since Nero 5.5.x.x

Greetz
JustMe2000

[DirtyBlanco]

Hi,
I'm very interested in this template because my dvd player can't play svcds.
Please email to me if you can


Mailto: Jnice1104@aol.com

[Antonio S.]

Template for "VCD with SVCD Resolution"...:)

[lhorwinkle]

I'd like the template too, if you don't mind.

lhorwinkle@paris.com

[Antonio S.]

Look at your E-MAIL...:)

[rcmania67]

Would you me send me the template. My email is dnguyen41@socal.rr.com Thanks


Originally posted by Antonio S.

As I post in the first part of this theme, I had made a template for TMPGEnc to encode a NSTC VCD with SVCD resolution.
Settings and Procedure
1- Encode a VCD(film)(23.976 fps) with the following characteristics:
Video: Mpeg-2, 480 x 480, VBR cq 9, max bitrate 1600, min bitrate 0.
Audio: Mpeg-1 layer 2 @ 112 kbps, 44.1 mhz
Soften block noise=100, motion search precision="High Quality"
2- Demux
3- Mux as a vcd(non standard)
4- Burn with Nero as a vcd(non compliance) or use TSCV (vcd 2.0) to create a cue/bin file.

Advantages
1- quality is better than standard vcd, but not as good as regular SVCD
2- Motion scence is very smooth.
3- A 700Mb cd-r can hold about 100 min of movie
4- Can be play in DVD players that run at 1x speed and/or do not recognize SVCD format.

Disadvanteges
1- You have to demux and mux again as a VCD (non standard)
2- Not as good as SVCD
3- May not play correctly in some computers ( with some older versions of WinDVD)

History
When I first try to encode with this resolution, I use an regular vcd template (Mpeg-1 encoding) just changing the resolution (from 352X240 to 480x480). The resultant file doesn't play correctly in some DVD players ( specially in Apex and Panasonic units).Why? Maybe the SVCD scan offsets (included in the Mpeg-2 encoding)are needed for proper playback for this resolution. Remember this resolution is not a vcd standard.Some people in this and others forums think that mpeg-1 is better than mpeg-2 for this low bitrate encoding (I doubt it), but that is not the real issue. It doesn't matter what settings do you change when encoding with mpeg-1, the resultant file doesn't play correctly in some DVD players unless it is encode with mpeg-2.
If a template of the settings is needed, please post an E-Mail and I will send it to you. I get better results with TMPGEnc ver 12i.

Please post some results or modifications.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hi , end me the new template please :)
m_golara@yahoo.com

[Antonio S.]

Look at your E-Mail...:)

[Antonio S.]

Some Tips

1-When encoding add black bars on top and bottom of picture if it is a 4:3 display.
2-Do not crop 16:9 display to a full 4:3.

To add black bars in TMPGEnc go to the ADVANCE MENU and press the CLIP FRAME option. Then add 50 in both, top and botton boxes. Remember to check top mask and botton mask.

Antonio S.

[bombero]

antonio, can you email me a copy of your template please, I would like to try it out

thanx.............bombero

bombero@ij.net

[Antonio S.]

Look at your E-Mail...:)

[azurenights]

i know i could download the file but I am not at home at the moment so could you send it to my email please

azurenights@hotmail.com

thanks

[Linux]

This was an angry thread.

My calculator says 75 * 8 * 2324 = 1394400.
Perhaps kdiddy should check his.

VCD was made to be able to play 74 min video on a 1 spin CD-player.
They used 1150 kbit/s MPEG-1 CBR for video and 224 kbit/s MPEG-1 Layer-2 CBR for audio.
When SVCD was invented they upgraded the spec to include 2X spin CD and used MPEG-2 VBR for video.

I say that the CD you have made is in fact more SVCD than VCD.
Since your DVD player is refusing to use an ordinary SVCD the only difference would be the muxing and file naming part.

[Antonio S.]

Linux:

This is the idea!!! To be able to play a SVCD in a player that only accepts VCD. As I said before, If your player can decode SVCD you will never need this...

In fact, what we are doing here is adapting a SVCD to a VCD. Our limitations are bitrate and muxing .

Antonio S.

[Mr_E]

Please send me your template
beochonk@hawaii.rr.com

[Antonio S.]

Look at your E-Mail...

[yuko]

send it ova at loso44x@acedsl.com

[mpeggato]

Hi i am italian and i think you too....

Can you email me the template please?
Puoi per favore spedirmi la template, ti ringrazio davvero.

bye

Ciao

Mpeggato - master@ilab.it

[Antonio S.]

Template is posted here also...

http://www.antonio.owns.it/

Antonio S.

[oberkfell]

Antonio:

Hey, I ripped a few dvds using Pinoys SVCD template and they came out pretty good. Then after reading this post I used TMPGEnc to demux and mux them as a non-compliant VCDs. I noticed your template is MPEG-2 480x480 23.976fps CQ_VBR 9, Layer-2 44100Hz 112kbps and his is Pinoy2201s SVCD(NTSC) (MPEG-2 480x480 29.97fps VBR 1580kbps, Layer-2 44100Hz 224kbps).

I was pretty darned suprised that my Sony standalone read them as they won't recognize SVCDs. Anyway, I was wondering what benefit am I getting by using your template? I am thinking maybe its the amount of material I can fit on one CDR. I haven't tried yours out yet, but I plan to in the future if it will give me good quality, plus adding more material on 1 cd.

Anyway thanks for the tip on demuxing and muxing.

[oberkfell]

Ok, I just got done ripping Traffic 2:30:00 and the resulting TMPG project file is 3.2gb. Damn thats huge. The file looks excellent, but I expected a much smaller file. I was under the assumption 100 minutes could fit on a 1 700 mb cd. There isn't a chance in heck I can get this project on 4 cds.

Did I screw something up?

[Antonio S.]

oberkfell:

Which TMPGEnc version are you using ? Which template ?

Go to my site and read guides about NEW TMPGEnc Ver 2.51...

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it

[oberkfell]

I am using version 2.50.32.120. The template I used was MPEG-2 480x480 23.976fps CQ_VBR 9, Layer-2 44100Hz 112kbps. I am not criticizing you. I am new to this subject. I was just wondering why the file was so large. But, hey it is a 2 1/2 hour movie. The video and sound quality are great.

[Antonio S.]

oberkfell:

The problem with that version is that it doesn't matter what values you put in the template, the min default value will be is 2000 Kbps of video bitrate. This will increase your resultant file for about 60%. With other previous versions of TMPGEnc, the encoded file size of a similar movie using that template, would be about 1.2 Gb. So movie can be fitted in two 700 Mb cd's...

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it

[xxkmanxx]

...and this template works on regular vcd/dvd that support vcd, players? thats cool, i gotta try this out.

[xxkmanxx]

yo, can i get the template - kman1985@yahoo.com

[rudeboymcc]

what's the point of having vcd's in svcd resolution? correct me if i'm wrong but if a standalone dvd player plays vcd's that aren't in the standard resolution then they can play svcd, so y not just make svcd which is better quality and easier to make??

[Antonio S.]

rudeboymcc:

You are right !!! Just read the begining of the post...

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it

[xxkmanxx]

my dvd player dont play svcd and i wanted to know which dvd players play svcd, like a list, vcdhelp.com has it, but i think their site it down or something.

[MrRochie]

Just wondering if your cVCD template can somehow be used with dvd2svcd as like a next step? After I run the dvd2svcd program I have a whole bunch of files (BBmpeg, avs, bin and cues etc.) and the quality of the svcd is excellent. What would be the next step to make a vcd using your template? Since DVD2Svcd is now using TEMPGnc maybe, just maybe we can take it one step farther and create a VCD. Thanks a bunch Antonio.. You own it all ;) :confused:

[Stabmaster-Arson]

Heres somhting no one mentioned. That low of a bitrate, with a high 480x480 resolution, x 24 fps = 5529600 pixels per second,1600 kbps for all those pixels. That means /1600 = 3456 pixels per kilobit.
Now vcd res 352x240x29.97 (assume ntsc) = 2,531,865 pixels rendered per second. Divide this by 1150(standard VCD bitrate) and you get 2201 Pixels per kilobit. So as far as bitrate to represent the pixel data, 2201(vcd) 3456 (Your highres template) you see that this template of yours must render 1.57 times the pixels as regular vcd with only 1X the kilobits.

There will be extra artifacts and major quality loss I'm sure, and I doubt it looks any better than vcd. If you up the res, and do not up the bitrate accordingly, you get to the point of diminishing returns.

The moral here is higher res isnt necessarily always worth it, as it does not, in itself, guarentee a better video in the end.

This is not a flame, just somethig for everyone to think about.

[Antonio S.]

Stabmaster-Arson:

Do you tried the template ?

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it

[Antonio S.]

Using this template with latest TMPGEnc version, there is about 15% file reduction...

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it

[MaXime]

I am new to VCD/SVCD-Encoding , is there a way to get this thing done with DVD2SVCD and CCE 2.50?

And, i heard that it is possible to put a vcd-header to a svcd, so any vcd-player can play it. is this the same thing you are doing here ?

sorry for my stupidity :D

[Antonio S.]

Yes...After encoding your SVCD with DVD2SVCD demultiplex and multiplex again as a VCD (non standard).

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it

[Antonio S.]

Template has been modified. You can download it here...

Antonio S.
http://www.antonio.owns.it