Deinterlacing VHS-C tapes

[henasau]

After all my reading I come to conclusion deinterlacing is essential.
Deinterlaced movies I am getting are very poor quality.
Much worse then ones without any deinterlace filter.
When deinterlacer is not used the result are quite good IMO.
Being pretty new to all this, I wouldn't know the difference anyway.

My VHS-C tapes were recorded with JVC Camcorder.
My setup consist of the cassette converter which enable me to play
the VHS-C tapes on any standard VCR and Leadtek TV2000 Expert TV card.

For capture I use VirtualDub 1.4.9.2 VCR + SYNC and I follow the guide found on this site.
I live in Australia so we have PAL 60.
I captured my video to the AVI file with the resolution 720x576, YUY2, 25 frame rate
and Huffyuv v2.20 for the first stage compression.
For the rest I followed all the setting from the guide.

For filtering I use the VirtuaLDub V1.5.10 and the AviSynth V2.54.
I tried Inbuilt deinterlacer, DeinterlaceMap by Shaun Faulds, Smart by Donald Graft.
Finally I discovered www.100fps.com.
I tried Field Bob, Deinterlacer Smooth by Gunnar Thalin and AviSynth's Bob.
I tried several setting including defaults.
For the test I used only following filters in this order:
- Deinterlacer
- Levels
- Cropping using Null Transform
- Resize (Precise cubic a=-075) to 512 x 384

Size on the deinterlace line is showing as 320x240 320x480
I captured my video with 720x576 :confused:

To finish off I am using the Frameserver and the TNPGenc to decode to Mpeg2.

Where am I going wrong?
Perhapse there is something specific with VHC-C tapes.:confused:


Please Help

Henryk

[timecop]

You can try capturing with VirtualVCR (www.digtv.ws), if you have/will have audio sync issues (virtualdub capture is pretty shitty).
Try using recent versions of tools (virtualdub is at 1.5.something, etc.

I suggest you get AviSynth 2.54 (or newer),
and feed your original captured video to avisynth.

I assume these videos are home videos? You can try deinterlacers in
decomb filter package...

Do not filter in virtualdub, its slow and there are much better deinterlace filters for Avisynth.

Once you find the combination that works, something like
AVISource("original.avi")
SomeKindOfDeinterlace()
Crop()
Resize()

as the avs script, fed into TMPGEnc will give you must faster encoding speeds.

As far as filters, check out http://neuron2.net/ and look at decomb and other goodies there.

[rfmmars]

You really didn't say what is wrong with the videos. I deinterlace with VDmod 1.5.4 with no problems. I preview in a 4X window to see which one works best for that tape. Camcorders alot of times have field and frame problems because the can't output a full 29.97 NTSC or 23.96 Pal.

Without knowing what your dealing with, you might want to check out www.100fps.com for these types of problems.

richard
photorecall.net

[henasau]

Thanks Timecop for this advice.
I installed VirtualVcr on my system last night.
I think I prefer the capture by the VirtualVcr.
Picture is sharper and I think there are more details retained,
Perhapse a little bit more noise.
VirtualDubs capture is blurred.

Again I test it with several deintelacers.
Picture is better but still it has problems.
Movie without the interlaced filter is still looks better.

By the way I am using the latest versions (stable versions) of the VirtualDub and Avisynth as indicated in my previous post.

Richard I did check www.100fps.com many many times.
I even tried their method of filtering too.
Problems I am getting is kind of movement or saw tooth effect in all horizontal lines. For testing I am using clip of the house.
The problem is showing up especially in the gutters and roof tiles.
Problem become worse after putting the clip through deinterlace filter.
Do you suggest I should capture with 23.98 rate instead of PAL 25.

Henryk

[timecop]

These tapes are normal interlaced, 25fps video correct?
If you capture at 25fps, you will get interlaced lines. There isn't much you can do about it.

If you don't like the results coming from the deinterlacers, capture at the highest horizontal resolution you can afford (576, for pal in that case), then simply resize down 2x (Or SeparateFields() in avisynth and use SelectEven() or SelectOdd()).
You will lose half the horizontal resolution, but it will look better than (possibly) deinterlaced stuff.

You'll have a 720x288 video you can resize to 512x384 and have more or less decent quality, if you don't think that deinterlacers are doing a good job.

[rfmmars]

henryk...... the 23.96 is something I see often with posts about PAL. This may not apply to you. You say you see dots on the horizontal lines or is it stair case edges. Its interesting what you say about blurred capture with VDMOD but it sharper with VD-VCR. I will have to try that.

I capture with my capture card's software, so it's hard for me to comment.

Have you tried to use other VCRs? I use only pro grade $5000.00 US and most home VCRs do a fairly good job of recording but playback is poor, and with PAL "British" you have a much wider bandwidth, so VCRs playing PAL look much worst than playing NTSC.

On B-bay is where I bought my $5000.00 unit for $153.00 I have seen NTSC / PAL sold for just a few dollars more.

My business is film and VHS tape restoration plus I have about 900 S-VHS of my own, so the investment in pro grade equipment is a must for me.

richard
photorecall.net

[henasau]

Finally I found some time and did some more testing.
I captured short clip with:

- VIrtualDub V1.4.9.2 VCR Sync,
- VirtualVCR V2.6.9
- Native Leadtek Winfast Tv card capture program.

For every capture I used three different filter combination.
I mean during the conversion to MPEG2:

- No filter just crop and resize in Vdub
- AviSynth Bob filter plus crop and resize in VirtualDub
- AviSynth SeparateFields() SelectEven() and I tried odd too plus
crop and resize in VirtualDub.

Conclusion:
Capture with VirtualVCR appear to be sharper and IMO more details is retained. It has more noise but this could be due to finer details.
Capture with VDub is slightly blurred.
Capture with TV card S/F blurred too and details missing.
I decided not use this S/F for capture any more.

I could never get rid off the stair case. Even the AviSynth's SeperateFields() could not help.
This problem multiplies by the factor of few when deinterlacer is used.
You can see the stair case you could walk on.

To finish off I used set of noise/gamma/chroma filters (all in Vdub) to get rid off some off the noise. This filters where adjusted/setup for Vdub. I worked them out some time ago to suit Vdub capture.
The most pleasant picture to watch was one captured with VDub.
This could be due to Blurred picture and filter combination used.

I even tried to capture with 23.96 as rfmmars mention.
This did not help just more frames dropped.

Richard I am using just generic a TEAC VCR. I heard that not all VCR's are made the same. If I new this is the problem I would certainly invest in a new VCR.

One more thing. When captured with Vdub there are a few frames in a clip which appear to have horizontal sync problem. Sort of funny diagonal picture.
VirtualVcr and Tv card S/F hasn't go this problem ???
I thought that might a hint.

Any thoughts still :confused:
Thanks in advance.

Henryk

[timecop]

you're going to have to post some screenshots of this stuff if you
want any further help. it isn't going anywhere without people actually
seeing what are these effects you are experiencing.

Use "Copy frame to clipboard" option in virtualdub and upload the resulting images (as jpeg, but dont use too high compression) somewhere where others can see them.

[henasau]

From forum rules "I can't post an attachement"
What can I do??
Where jpeg goes after "Copy frame to clipboard".
I can't find it.

Henryk

[rfmmars]

It may be line pairing. There is a filter in VD that you can move one field up or down a line or half a line. This may be of some help.

See if you could borrow a VCR just to make a test. That horizontal tearing at the begining is most interesting. Yes the better the detail the more noise, but I would always capture with the sharpest.

richard

[timecop]

Originally posted by henasau
From forum rules "I can't post an attachement"
What can I do??
Where jpeg goes after "Copy frame to clipboard".
I can't find it.

Henryk


"the jpeg" doesnt go anywhere, the frame goes into clipboard.
paste it into your favorite image editing app such as mspaint and save it as jpeg.

If you cant post the stuff in the forum, upload them somewhere on the www.

[henasau]

It may be line pairing.
"Line Pairing" what filter it could be in VirtualDub or AviSynth.
My knowlede on AviSynth is still very limited.
I am going to do some search on the net.
Alternative VCR is on the back of mind too.

I have the place to host my JPEGS.
It is just a matter to catch up with my Web design knowlede.
It has been a long time. I better start working on it strait away.
JPEGS first.

[rfmmars]

The filter is "Field Bob" It is built in to VD

richard

[henasau]

Today I tried "Bob Field" filter. I think all possible combination.
I haven't got much success with it either.

During the process of producing JPEGS yesterday I come across one combination which worked pretty well for me.
Still no deinterlacer combination works the best.

I want to make sure my source AVI file is OK.
Perhapse my capture "Machine" is not up to standard ???
At least I would like to eliminate this posibility.
Any suggestion on this ?
What are the recommended VCRs?
What VCRs I should avoid it?

Henryk

[timecop]

just post the images somewhere.
it doesnt have to be a damn webpage.
explaining on fingers what effect you are getting/trying to achieve is pretty difficult.
a 2-3 second huffy clip of what is broken would be nice too, so that
someone can try a combination that might work.

[henasau]

Ok here you go http://www.abcembroidery.com.au/storage/
At the momment this is very basic.
The first frame is just after capture with virtualVCR,
the second one is after Avisynth discard field1 filter plus VirtualDub's level/crop/resize. This is exactly the same frame.
I tried to publish AVI clip. For the moment no success.
I will work on it tomorrow.

Henryk

[henasau]

Sorry correction. Just AviSynth Discard.
I forgot to load VirtualDub Filters.

Henryk

[henasau]

Yesterday was a very long day for me.
I did some alteration to the link today: http://www.abcembroidery.com.au/storage/
I added a couple more JPEGS.
Hopefully this will make it more clear.
I am stiil working on the AVI clip.
The website I am using has got file size limitation.

Henryk

[rfmmars]

Looked at the .jpgs. It looks like line pairing to me. I had a music video that was much like that plus other problems. In VD use separate files so the fields are side by side.

You may want to do a screen dump and see if they are really two different fields, or are they the same field twice. If it was NTSC, that is BAD, and for PAL it's terrable.

Why are you getting 320x480 or 320x240, thats NTSC not PAL vertical lines? Also why are you resizing 512x384? OK it's PAL60, so you would want to capture 720x480, not 720x576. I think we all missed the boat on PAL60. So how many frames per second would that be? NTSC is 29.97 fps, and that is based on the color subcarrier of 3.58 mhz.

Whats your color subcarrier for PAL60?

richard

[rfmmars]

Henryk........ there is another post on the forum that has the a capture problem, same card, and the solution is none. Its because the card can't handle PAL60 correctly.

richard

[henasau]

Hi Richard I don't know how I got to the the PAL 60 business.
We are using here standard PAL or Pal 50 as far as I know.
We have 50Hz main power supply so it would ridicules to use Pal 60
with 60Hz Vertical and 30 frame rate.
My apology lets forget Pal 60 from now on :o

This makes post about Leadtek Winfast 2000 expert and Pal 60 irrelevant to my problems does it?

I am using resolution 720x576 in capture to retain maximum info/details in captured AVI.
I am resizing it down to 512x384 to get 4:3 ratio.
Both this numbers are recommended for Pal in capture guides on this forum.


Henryk

[rfmmars]

Then your capture rate is correct. How come the deinterlacer says 320x240, that would be NTSC, an thats most certain the root to the problem.

Just yesterday I was making a slide show from a 720x480 video clip. I had done this many times. I had a problem like yours when I view the snapshots, and then I see that they were 212x255.....WHAT!! I went back to the program and the export for some reason switched to 720x576, PAL size.

Can't tell you why, now I have to export over 1900 slides again.

Look for some wierd like this.

richard

[smok3]

ill blame your vcr or maybe a combination of vcr and that vhs-c adapter, obviously there is something wrong with lines not being adjusted correctly over each other.., maybe try to play the same tape on some player with good time-base corrector.

[henasau]

How come the deinterlacer says 320x240,

Where can you see 329x240 ? I can't find it.

ill blame your vcr or maybe a combination of vcr and that vhs-c adapter, obviously there is something wrong with lines not being adjusted correctly over each other.., maybe try to play the same tape on some player with good time-base corrector.

Which players would you recommend.

Henryk

[smok3]

Originally posted by henasau
Which players would you recommend.

Henryk i really dont know, it must be like 10 years since i did something vhs/svhs specific, from what i remember pro-like players didnt really return value for money (jvc series), so get some top-home-based model with the time-base corrector. (panasonics used to be the best)

edit: do a little trip to some local studio and try to play the tape there on few players if you have a chance, could be something screwed with the original recording as well..., btw now i remember the thread here that was talking about line shifting done by the capture card, something to do with the whole pci bus irc.... (so do you get those lines shifted even when just playing that tape directly connected to monitor?)

[rfmmars]

henryk....... the 320x240 was taken from your first post as well as PAL 60. That all I can do is to reference what you wrote.

Best VCR, in the Prosummer area JVC 9900 series at $499.95 US. is the best. Yes it is worth that money. Also on E-BAY I bought a used Broadcast JVC S-Video editor for $153.00 plus shipping, $5000.00 New!

Two weeks later the same deck went for $75.00. The pro i/o cables will run another $50.00.

The 329x240 I think was a missed key in typing, and PAL60 may have been the same. Try to proof reading several times before posting so we can better help you.

richard
photorecall.net

[henasau]

@Richard
Now I got it. That wasn't a typo. I indeed had this resolution in one of my captures/ conversions. Since this post I investigated further and found that all the rest had the correct resolution.

I think my problem is the bad source. As SMOK3 indicated the converter itself probably contributes to this problem too. After all this is pretty crude mechanical device. I am going search for an alternative player or even possibly standalone Time Base Corrector.

All this is very new to me I am learning every day.
Thank you very much Richard, Smok3, Timecop.
Your replies helped me very much pointing me in the right direction.

Henryk

[rfmmars]

Good luck on your search!

richard