Sony with own h.264/AVC codec?

[bond]

on cdrinfo.com some small infos were posted that sony seems to work on an own h.264 codec
there are not many details at the moment (also i didnt found any more reliable news site with this info) so it should be taken carefully

cdrinfo (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=5020)

[keel]

Sony has introduced a hardware H.264 codec for their new videoconferencing system

http://www.integratedmar.com/ECL.cfm?item=DLY021604-02

Polycom has already incorporated H.264 in their hardware systems. Not sure these are interoperable (hopefully they are), or where it leaves software/appliance decoding...

Frank Fulchiero
Connecticut College

[bond]

i recently stumbled over a more detailed report on this topic here (http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/wcs/leaf/CID/onair/asabt/news/293350)
seems sony is indeed working on a h.264 software encoder :)

Sony Corp demonstrated real-time image reproduction using its encoding software H.264/MPEG-4 AVC (hereafter referred to as H.264) that is under development.
...
The H.264 software has already been optimized for SIMD (MMX/SSE2) instructions, but the optimization for Hyper-Threading is under study. Sony is developing real-time encoding software at the same time. However, both those encoding/decoding programs are currently under development, and no schedule for commercialization has been decided.the possible decoding side (PSP) was discussed here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73656) already

[lexor]

awww... my thread linked to :p

I do have a bad news though, PSP will only play Sony made movie disks. Sony will not allow user created movie content to playback on PSP. So mini-disk situation will not repeat, when Sony saw that people don't buy music on mini-disks it allowed users to write to them, which let the format survive, they aren't gonna do that with PSP.

[CruNcher]

@lexor

hehe the question is not what it is restricted to play the question is how long will it take some smart guys to disable those restrictions :)

[bond]

Originally posted by lexor
Sony will not allow user created movie content to playback on PSP.where did you read this?

[lexor]

Originally posted by bond
where did you read this?

To be perfectly honest I don't remember, it was E3 and there were tons of websites yapping about DS and PSP, one of them had an interview with Sony representatives at E3. For the life of me don't remember who.

but with price point between 300 and 500 USD (http://www.gamedaily.com/wireless/article/?source=00001&id=6858&game_id=) I don't really see myself warrying too much about it, since it's unlikley I'd get it.

[bond]

some more infos about sony's h.264 ambitions can be found here (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=5804)

seems like their new playstation portable will support the playback of h.264 (together with mp3 and atrac (sony's own audio format (bringing not really good quality))
also the news release says that users will be able to convert their video files to H.264 using a Windows-based software called Image Converter 2, a trial version of which is expected to ship with the PSP console

[Blue_MiSfit]

I can almost guarantee their h264 codec will be terrible...
atrac3 is terrible...
their speakers are terrible...
in fact, the only thing that I like about sony is the PS2.

A bit pessimistic perhaps, but I think most would agree with me :)

[plonk420]

Originally posted by Blue_MiSfit
I can almost guarantee their h264 codec will be terrible...


i HIGHLY doubt that. i talked to a compressionist that worked with (or was familiar with) their MPEG-2 encoder... it peaks at over 12mbits (2 over dvd spec) by controlling the dvd player buffer somehow and under the 2 (or whatever) mbit minimum. i'm pretty sure they know their stuff.

[darkavatar1470]

Some specs off the japanese PSP site (http://www.scei.co.jp/products/psp.html) ..

‘Î?ƒR�[ƒfƒbƒN Video: H.264 / AVC MP Level3
(Supported Codecs) Audio: ATRAC3plus�AMP3

And while Image Converter 1.5 seems to be based on QuickTime..(it actually says output QT format...)
http://www.jp.sonystyle.com/Special/Imgcnv15/index.html
don't about Image Converter 2 though,
but here's a nice page with some samples
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041213/sony.htm
and PSP is able to playback *.MP4 from Sony DSC-M1 digital camera
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041212/psp.htm#movie

so i guess we're free to use PSP as a portable MPEG-4 player,
better start saving now...

[Mug Funky]

i think i agree with Blue_MiSfit on this one... (but i wouldn't be so generous toward the ps2).

the only thing Sony makes well is trinitron monitors (and maybe ads). and i haven't used one made in the last 8 years, so even those might have slipped. they should never have got into the entertainment industry - there's a clear conflict of interest that is slowly killing the consumer electronics aspect of Sony. we can expect in a few years time that they wont make any CE at all - just crap movies and crap music.

although, h.264 is advanced enough that even if they take the reference software and optimize that, it'll be hard to make a bad codec. though it will most definitely not be competitive with the other h.264 options out there (even x264 as it is now...). Sony's marketing division will probably make it commercially viable though.

[LordRPI]

And I've heard so much back in the early days of H.264/AVC that you'll need a beowulf cluster to play back content...

[Leak]

Originally posted by LordRPI
And I've heard so much back in the early days of H.264/AVC that you'll need a beowulf cluster to play back content...

You need a Beowulf cluster of hot grits down a petrified and naked Natalie Portman's pants (Naked and pants? Huh? :)) to play H.264/AVC? I wouldn't trust /. that far these days... :D

np: Autechre - Eggshell (Incunabula)

[LordRPI]

Just to get it across, I don't do codec related things at DivX. I'm just a measly college graduate with a bachelors in computer and systems engineering.

In the conferences I've sat through, the references towards extreme complexity are usually made to MPEG-2, not MPEG-4 part 2. Admittedly, we can see that through our process viewers, the decode of H.264/AVC is more intensive than DivX (about 3X from my guestimates). This decoding time is well in line with Moore's law given a start date of the launch of DivX 4.0 in 2k1 and the launch of Nero Recode w/AVC in late 2k4. Let's not get into encoding...

The mpeg speaker at the conference did tout that H.264/AVC was designed from the ground up with actual hardware engineers involved in the committee...

[Manao]

Let's not get into encoding...That's a bit untrue, especially if we compare, let's say, DivX 5 slowest mode Vs Nero's AVC quality extra. And quality will clearly be on Nero's side.

However, it is true that AVC decoding takes more processing power ( and 3X also seems a good estimate ). Luckyly, if DivX -> AVC followed the Moore's law, so did the hardware, so decoding isn't more a problem than it was three years earlier

although, h.264 is advanced enough that even if they take the reference software and optimize that, it'll be hard to make a bad codecQuality wise, the reference encoder is really hard to beat ( except that it misses a rate control ). Optimizing it, however, would be a hell of a task.

[SladeCraven]

Some HW guys in the JVT meeting ??? Yes there is. But i do not see the point. H264 is a compilation of complex entropy tools AND complex pixel processing/MC tools. For example, the current know implementation at Conexant, Thomson, ST and Broadcom use at least 32 Mb of DDRAM and store 1 intermediate frame in DDRAM... because of the CABAC complexity (and the ability to decode CABAC streams in time in the worst-cases).
So what we will see IMHO is full implementation in term of standard coverage for the Main Profile@L3 or L4 (HD) (i mean with all tools implemented), but for full handle of worst cases... i'am not sure.
I would be very surprise if the first generation of HW chips for H264 decoding would support worst cases (ie ful INTRA4x4 mode 6, followed by P pictures full of MB with 2 MV per 4x4 blocks...).

[LordRPI]

Manao,

I didn't want to get into encoding because I thought it might open a pandora's box.

Recently, there was a poll over at DivX.com about what they would rather see in codec improvements: Quality beat speed.

Last week, I held a poll that asked what speed/quality setting they used most often - most used "fastest".

Now I know these polls are by far too inaccurate to be mentioned in the same breath as reality, but it goes to show that audiences are fickle... not to mention Nero Digital is fast as an experimental NASA jet.

As for h/w engineers in the JVT, I know there are some design trade-offs between pure compression efficiency and cost/performance issues in execution. A .1 dB decrease, lets say, might result in the code to be less of a pain to deal with in h/w. Although I'm not going to argue because I don't know the facts on this case well enough.

[bond]

Originally posted by darkavatar1470
Some specs off the japanese PSP site (http://www.scei.co.jp/products/psp.html) ..

‘Î?ƒR�[ƒfƒbƒN Video: H.264 / AVC MP Level3
(Supported Codecs) Audio: ATRAC3plus�AMP3

And while Image Converter 1.5 seems to be based on QuickTime..(it actually says output QT format...)
http://www.jp.sonystyle.com/Special/Imgcnv15/index.html
don't about Image Converter 2 though,
but here's a nice page with some samples
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041213/sony.htm
and PSP is able to playback *.MP4 from Sony DSC-M1 digital camera
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041212/psp.htm#movie

so i guess we're free to use PSP as a portable MPEG-4 player,
better start saving now... good to know :)

do you have some more info about sony's .mp4 implementation? is there a software encoder available? do you have some specs about the encoder (eg the one on the camera)? the sample files provided by sony seems to use he-aac (not sure, but coreaac upsamples to 48khz, dunno if it doesnt this automatically) and simple profile video

[neo75903]

So does this mean that all my mp4 which currently plays fine on Quicktime 6 without 3ivx will also play on PSP?
That would be awesome :)

I can feel some sceptisme against Sony, but i am a happy user of MD, the sound quality hasimproved gradually until latest version 3. But as some of you have mentioned, Sony has killed its own format by putting to much control on it. Not to forget that MD is still very popular in Asia and suypported by far more manufactures. Unfortunaly, not many of them export their players to the western market. For the ones who have been in HongKong or Tokio will have to agree by the amount of MD players at sale.
Since mp3 has been my favorite format, i only use MD for on the way not so more for storage.

Rumors say PSP might be released to the rest of the world next year march. Better start saving money and tell santa to put some bucks on your account instead to bring a present ;)