dv->divx->archive->edit->dvd ???

[allynm]

ok, im sure the topic may have thrown some of you, so here is my delema.

i've spent the past week experimenting with dv, as i got a dv cam about a month back. i'd like to archive my footage. here is what i hope to accomplish:

- somehow archive in an editable format (not mpeg2), that wont break the bank on space requirements (dv). this format must be easily accessible (dv is simply a pain to go through, especially if the footage i need spans multiple tapes).
- keep quality high enough to allow later editing and encoding to mpeg2. the mpeg2 would not have to be absolutely perfect (as in raw dv -> mpeg2 via tmpgenc).

so here is my plan so far, feel free to poke holes in it / make suggestions / whatever.

- capture dv with scenalyzer (http://scenalyzer.com/) (it does this spiffy auto-segmenting the clips, as well as saving the file names with the date/time in them).
- run all files through virtualdub (w/panasonic dv codec), using avisynth filters for deinterlace. keep resolution (no resize). possibly deinterlace (keeping it interlaced creates a rather large disk space hit - is it really worth keeping it interlaced???). encode audio to lame cbr 128 (possibly 160/192). encode video to divx 5.1.1 using 1-pass quality based, quant=4 (still settling on 4, may go lower if i find artifacts in subsequent clips).
- save encoded files to dvd-r for archival
(later on (months/years))
- retrieve select vids from dvd-r
- edit with premiere
- export as avi, with the occasional mpeg2 conversion for relatives, small production stuff, etc.

stuff i'm considering:
- lossless audio compression for archival - feasable? or too much of a pain to deal with (i'd hope to stay away from crazy demux-encode-remux operations).
- interlaced video - i'm thinking that several years down the line i'll be playing this stuff back on either the pc or a media center pc connected to progressive scan plasma. is interlaced really worth keeping? are there some features of editing programs (premiere) that i wont be able to use if the video is not interlaced? would i really loose THAT much if i took the footage through this route and converted to mpeg2 after editing?

stuff i need to know:
- looking for the absolute best deinterlace filter to use. i'd hope its already right in front of me (avisynth?).
- is there an easy way to quickly batch encode a full directory of avis with virtualdub? i'd hope to be able to dump a tape on the pc, run something (to possibly take all the file names and insert them into my custom avs file), start virtualdub with the job, and walk away.

thanks in advance for any suggestions
Al

[rfmmars]

Why not Mpeg2? I compress at between 8000 and 15,000 bps using Ligos 3.5 encoder and edit it in Virtualdubmod. Editing is fast compared to .AVI using the data rate above, I bet you won't be able to tell the difference.

Richard
photorecall.net

[allynm]

Originally posted by rfmmars
Why not Mpeg2?

i tried editing with premiere, but right off the bat, the preview of the clip wouldnt work correctly. i tried some other stuff to no avail. the mpg i was using was a short clip encoded with tmpgenc at 8000 average 2-pass with uncompressed audio. seemed to not work anywhere near as well as it does with dv-avi. was there something i may have been missing there?

[rfmmars]

I used to be a user of Adobe Premire but not anymore. It is so time consuming that I just gave up. I use Virtualdubmod 1.5.4 ac3 Ligos, and a product from www.Magix.com called Edit Movie Pro2004. At a price of $100.00 it does have some issues but there are work arounds.

I think there is a E-version that you can try, and it has a lot of documentation, but it's weakness is that is doesn't cover the basic things we need to do in the documentation. However there are two demo files that come with the full product, and if you study the 16 track timeline you will learn a lot.

MPEG2 is all I work with, and if I didn't have this program, I could not do the projects I do. It has a strong Forum where you will see the good and the bad, but it is the most productive NLE I have ever seen.

It has the Ligos Mpeg2 encoder bulit in to convert the DV.AVIs.

Another codec you may want to check out is Xvid.

Richard

[allynm]

Originally posted by rfmmars
MPEG2 is all I work with,

just curious there, i'm assuming you archive in mpeg2 as well. what do you do with the audio? from what i can tell, you have to leave it uncompressed or go with .mp2 audio (which supposedly wont work with dvd players, and must be recompressed later to make this happen, resulting in quality loss).

[rfmmars]

The sound is left uncompress.

Richard

[bb]

Originally posted by allynm
[...]from what i can tell, you have to leave it uncompressed or go with .mp2 audio (which supposedly wont work with dvd players, and must be recompressed later to make this happen, resulting in quality loss).
MP2 works in all PAL DVD players. NTSC specs require at least one AC3 track, so there may be NTSC players which don't support MP2 alone - although I don't think this is an issue nowadays.

You may use AC3, too, of course. But your editing software should support it. Recompression is an issue, though, so if you have the space, you better leave the audio uncompressed.

bb

[northern]

I was told that if you like to archive you DV material in MPEG2 you should think of using I frame compression only. That means the compression rate is not as good as with normal settings but this should be better for further editing. Also some editing software have problems with normal IBP-compressed material but I-frame compressed material is fine for them. Go figure...

[rfmmars]

Thanks for the information on compression of I frames. This information is hard to come by. I do a lot of 8mm & 16mm telecine with three workstations each have about 600 gig of capacity.

Due to the amount of work, if I switched to DV format, you can see how much investment would be needed just to stay even.

Both MPEG2 nd DV.avi are fast on the time line compared to other codec, nd are easy to edit.

Many thanks,

Richard
photorecall.net

[Paul Langemeijer]

i usually do the following:

capture dv tape. 13 gigs...crap 20 gig hdd almost full :(
use avisynth or virtualdub overnight to:
smart-de-interlace
adaptive temporal filter
smartsmooth
resize (352x288 PAL)
mjpeg 70% quality

70% quality is low, but keeps the mjpeg file under 700MB, this file i keep on my hdd, or a cd.

use the mjpeg file to edit. its really fast even on my computer :)
when the project is finished, i recapture the dv-avi file, and replace the mjpeg file. then i render to mpeg2, and i delete the dv file again.

for the archieving part, i've tried:
-50 fps divx
-divx interlaced
-mpeg2 interlaced

but to get it to fit on cd's i have to lower quality. or i should buy a dvd burner. in the end, i just keep the tapes :)

[allynm]

Originally posted by Paul Langemeijer
[B]i usually do the following:
for the archieving part, i've tried:
-50 fps divx
-divx interlaced
-mpeg2 interlaced

but to get it to fit on cd's i have to lower quality.

my intent was to be able to get an hour or 2 of dv onto a single dvd, in a semi-editable format. my progress so far led me the 60fps route (i'm ntsc here). i am splitting the frames (avisynth - 'seperatefields'), through virtualdub, and bringing it back to full resolution with the 'smooth deinterlace' (1.1) filter. im currently messing with the settings for smooth deinterlace to get my desired output. once that is settled, i will move onto the final task of what codec to use. divx 5, while fast at encoding and relatively portable/common, has some glaring issues (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=67637) that are making me not want to use it for archived footage. i mean lets face it, i dont want to have to verify all of my encodes manually. with that, some of the recent xvid builds seem promising, so i may end up settling on that. i think there are some special settings for high res xvid encoding, gotta do more research.

[rfmmars]

allynm....... I have used xvid and it is petty good. I am not happy with Divx.

What I have settled on is Ligos Mpeg2 encoding, takes less space for same quality, and has less artifacts. Remember you can't make bad digital SVCD or DVD good. When I need to save my best tapes, I put just one hour on each DVD. For my customers they can't tell their DV.avi footage from the DVD encoded at a average bit rate of 6700 bps.

I buy the DVD blanks in hourdred bulk, and gets the two hour backup down to $1.90 US.

It's all going to come down what is acceptable to you.

Paul...... I think that the DVD burner is the route to go. You can have 3 times the data rate for quality or lots more time at 3500 bps and still have better quality than SVCD.

richard