dropping frames

[grbenny]

Hi,

This is my first post on this forum. I have read the Capture FAQ's and many posts on this forum. I've tried many - but not all - the tweaks and system changes to try to cure my problem dropping frames, and the frequency has been reduced, but not to an acceptable level.

Some of the fixes I've tried include: reistalling windows, buying a newer/faster harddrive, removing all the other cards in the PC, made sure the capture card has its own IRQ, changing the PCI Latency Timer to 64 from 32, disabled serial ports, killed background tasks with End-it-All, increased the audio latency in the capture software, removed audio card and enabled onboard sound, updated video card driver, captured with alternate program DVIO, disabled monitoring of audio and video during capture.

At this point, I am starting to think that maybe my system - or some of the components of the system - is not compatible with the capture card and/or software. I'm considering building a new system dedicated to video. I built the current system for multitrack audio recording, and it works great for that. I would really appreciate it if someone would let me know if there are any known issues with any of my current hardware, software, or combination of components.

One point of interest to me is that it *seems* that the problem is a lot worse when capturing a tape with a music track, but maybe it's my imagination. :-)

Also, I've tried several different tapes and two different VHS decks, and some tapes drop more frames than others, but it seems consistant for each tape. A few comparison tests I've performed have dropped more frames using Premier Pro than with DVIO. One particular tape of interest was captured completely in DVIO without dropping frames at all, looks just fine when the deck is attached to a TV, but starts dropping fames like mad when it hits 40 minutes in Premier Pro.

Current system:
Asus A7S333 motherboard
Athlon XP 2200+
1 GB PC2700 DDR
Win XP Home
Matrox G450 32 MB graphics
Canopus ACEDVio capture board
Seagate Barracuda 80 GB system drive (master on primary channel)
Western Digital WD1600JB Video drive (master on secondary channel)
Pioneer DVD-ROM (currently detatched, slave on secondary channel)
TDK indiDVD multiformat burner (slave on primary channel)
M'Audio Delta 1010 audio (currently removed)
D-Llnks USB 2.0 adapter (currently removed)
Adobe Premier Pro

Thanks in advance for any help or insite you can provide!
Gary

[rfmmars]

I can't see anything wrong ,but there must be. There is a $99.00 program out there called Movie Edit Pro 2004. After using it's sister product and it for over a year, I dumped my Adobe off the hard drive. I had the chance to capture DV off of a Sony TRV-310 with it. Not one dropped frame.

It's too bad that it's e version demo (www.magix.com) capture is defeated, but it is so more productive than Adobe's product.

Eichard
photorecall.net

[grbenny]

Hi Eichard,

Thanks for the reply. Is the Movie Edit Pro software an all-in-one application - capture, editing and authoring? I had a Pinnacle USB system, and I liked the interface of the Studio software pretty well, but it crashed my computer every 5 minutes! Plus, the USB interface doesn't support DV capture, only MPEG. I was actually able to capture the same tapes and drop zero frames using the USB interface with Pinnacle Studio 8, but I couldn't edit without crashing.

It sure would be a bummer to have to chuck the Adobe software - an expensive and unfortunate lesson!

Thanks,
Gary

[rfmmars]

Yes it a one in all application with too many feature to list.

Richaed

[mustardman]

@grbenny

You had better read the "Capturing analog nightmare - nothing is really acceptable" thread. It is discussing this exact thing, and I really don't feel like repeating everything said there...

(Sorry, if I knew how to make a link I would - perhaps someone could send me a PM and let me know...)

[grbenny]

HI,

Yes, I had already read that thread, and just re-read it. I guess I haven't gotten to the point yet that I've given up on the card. It was recommended highly - Canopus in general - by a couple of people that I thought knew a lot about video, but I guess it wouldn't take much to know more than I do! Eveyone seems like an expert!

"I spent several months struggling with my $2k DC30 and tried lots of different equipment (several TBCs, different VCRs, different capture cards, etc) before I decided my tapes were actually the problem."

This is something I have thought a lot about. I have tapes I successfully captured using a Pinnacle USB interface - only MPEG - without any dropped frames, but using the ACEDVio with Premier Pro which was considerably more expensive, there are lots of frames dropped. Sometimes the audio and video stutter, and sometimes the video skips while the audio sounds fine. Also, when the VCR is connected to a TV, it looks and sounds good. So, how do you tell if it's the tape?

I am trying to capture some music perfomance of a friend of mine, and dropping frames really messes things up - especially if the audio stutters.

By the way, what is your opinion on the ACEDVio card?

Thanks for the help!
Gary

[grbenny]

HI,

Yes, I had already read that thread, and just re-read it. I guess I haven't gotten to the point yet that I've given up on the card. It was recommended highly - Canopus in general - by a couple of people that I thought knew a lot about video, but I guess it wouldn't take much to know more than I do! Eveyone seems like an expert!

"I spent several months struggling with my $2k DC30 and tried lots of different equipment (several TBCs, different VCRs, different capture cards, etc) before I decided my tapes were actually the problem."

This is something I have thought a lot about. I have tapes I successfully captured using a Pinnacle USB interface - only MPEG - without any dropped frames, but using the ACEDVio with Premier Pro which was considerably more expensive, there are lots of frames dropped. Sometimes the audio and video stutter, and sometimes the video skips while the audio sounds fine. Also, when the VCR is connected to a TV, it looks and sounds good. So, how do you tell if it's the tape?

I am trying to capture some music perfomance of a friend of mine, and dropping frames really messes things up - especially if the audio stutters.

By the way, what is your opinion on the ACEDVio card?

Thanks for the help!
Gary

[mustardman]

@grbenny

It is good that you have narrowed down the source material, as you probably gathered from the other thread, I had made the mistaken assumption that the doode was capturing from camcorder video. And in that thread was some of my personal experiences with camcorder stuff - that is the only material that interests me. People capturing commercially available stuff, well, maybe I can see a point with moving VHS only material to digital, but DVD's ???

But I digress, to your problem in particular. I agree that loosing audio/video sync would be a really bad thing with a video clip. Generally, the proffessionals work with +/- 1 frame to maintain lip-sync. More than that, and the viewers start to notice. I have not tried to see if it true....

The cannopus ADVC100 has a switch on it called "sync/un-sync audio". With the switch set to "un-sync", the card can capure a long sequence without dropping frames. With it on "sync" it drops an occasional frame. I assume the device does that to keep the A/V "frame" the same size (as in the data frame, not the video frame). Perhaps your device has a similar switch?

I recently did a capture from really bad source, and found the audio and video both had dropouts (missing audio & dropped frames). I ended up using a different card which although it dropped heaps of frames, it did actually capture all the audio and maintained the video in sync. The dropped frames just repeated until a good one came along and updated it! It looked ugly, but at least it was in sync! And the audio had no dropouts!

I assume the ACEDVio card is internal (another assumption!). It produces DV output?

To answer your question how do you tell if it's the tape? This I can't really answer. My tapes too look fine on a TV. My only guess is that since the snyc stripping and sync circuitry in a TV is analog, it (the TV) can handle poor sync levels and bad timing coming from a VCR. On the other hand, a capture card is digital, and is therefore more constrained by timing. As an example, during a scene change, the field order does this... AB AB AB AB A AB AB AB AB (a B field is missed). A TV has absolutely no problem doing this. A capture card (all I have seen) will drop a frame. My ADVC100 will drop a "field". Most cards will report a dropped "field" as a dropped "frame".
Note: The ADVC100 can't report dropped frames*, but other capture cards that can will report a drop. I diched using my DC30 for other reasons....

By the way, what is your opinion on the ACEDVio card? Unfortunately I have never used this device, so I can't give you an opinion. The best I can suggest is doing a search on the forum, and on the web, for ACEDVio and have a look at any reviews or user problems.


Perhaps the really expensive capture cards used by professionals (like the "funniest home video" crowd - they must have a pretty big budget!) don't exhibit these problems.

Unfortunately, these are a bit outside our price range!!

If your card output is DV, try "WinDV". It is free :) and has a very intelligent buffer system, the best I have seen. (especially for the price!)

* It is possible that the ADVC100 puts a marker in the IEEE1394 data stream to indicate dropped frames, but I have no software that can read this (if it does even exist). Does anyone know?

[grbenny]

Ok, now you've done it! The more you tell me, the more questions I have!

>And in that thread was some of my personal experiences with >camcorder stuff - that is the only material that interests me.

Interestingly, when I capture from my old 8mm camcorder, the only time frames are dropped is when the picture gets fuzzy, like between scenes shot by incompetent operators. :-) Other than that, no frames are dropped at all. Hmmmm

>But I digress, to your problem in particular. I agree that loosing >audio/video sync would be a really bad thing with a video clip.

Actually, I don't have a problem with audio/video sync. The ACEDVio card seems very capable in that area. It has a very small control panel where you can make some basic adjustments: 0 or 7.5 IRE - I don't even know what IRE is, and the manual doesn't say - set video levels, choose 16/48 or 12/32 audio, and locked or unlocked audio. I have tried it with unlocked audio, and it still seems to stay in sync. Also have messed with about every combination of the available settings and still behaves the same on the same tapes, but not every tape is as bad.

>The cannopus ADVC100 has a switch on it called "sync/un-sync audio". >With the switch set to "un-sync", the card can capure a long >sequence without dropping frames. With it on "sync" it drops an >occasional frame. I assume the device does that to keep the >A/V "frame" the same size (as in the data frame, not the video >frame). Perhaps your device has a similar switch?

Ya, see above.

>I recently did a capture from really bad source, and found the audio >and video both had dropouts (missing audio & dropped frames). I >ended up using a different card which although it dropped heaps of >frames, it did actually capture all the audio and maintained the >video in sync. The dropped frames just repeated until a good one >came along and updated it! It looked ugly, but at least it was in >sync! And the audio had no dropouts!

That is exactly what's happening on one of the music performance tapes I'm trying to capture - The audio sounds just fine but the video stalls-out, as you say, it appears to just repeat the same frame until it gets a good one. Is that a clear indication of a bad tape? If it is, maybe I don't have the problem that I thought I did! Which would be cool but but I'm nearly insane now anyway!

>I assume the ACEDVio card is internal (another assumption!). It >produces DV output?

Yes it is. It has S-Vidio and RCA analog video and audio I/O, plus firewire and DV connections. One of the reasons I got the card is because it would handle all types of sources - unless there are some I don't know about.

>My ADVC100 will drop a "field". Most cards will report a >dropped "field" as a dropped "frame".

What is a field? I know what a frame is. :-)


>Note: The ADVC100 can't report dropped frames*, but other capture >cards that can will report a drop. I diched using my DC30 for other >reasons....

The ACEDVio can't report them either, it's up to the capture program. The control panel has a preview window and I can see the symptoms that when captured in PrePro are reported as dropped frames.

By the way, I was having horrible stuttering audio and video when I was using my Delta 1010 audio. I am now trying to use the onboard audio and have set the audio latency to "long". If I set it to "medium" or "short" in PrePro, I still get the stuttering audio. I understand this symptom from doing multitrack digital audio recording. Depending on your system, you will get the same symptom with audio latency set too low.

>Unfortunately I have never used this device, so I can't give you an >opinion. The best I can suggest is doing a search on the forum, and >on the web, for ACEDVio and have a look at any reviews or user >problems.

I've checked the Canopus forum and haven't heard of anyone really hating it. Some folks having similar problems to mine. I Googled ACEDVio and could find a lot of places to buy it, but no reviews or negative info.

>If your card output is DV, try "WinDV". It is free :) and has a very >intelligent buffer system, the best I have seen. (especially for the >price!)

It is a capture program? The buffering is interesting to me. In my audio application - SONAR - and in the Delta 1010 control panel, there are settings for buffer sizes that have a profound effect on performance. I kind of expected to see similar video buffering options but PrePro doesn't seem to have any.

Thanks a lot for the info. I'll keep at it here. I think I will need to build a new system to keep my audio recording separate from the video. They seems to have issues that are not compatible! Can you point me to a resource that might give some good tips on building a new system specifically for audio?

Gary

[rfmmars]

Gary, I just not into that much in the audio field. I build mostly AMD machines, for they are faster that P4 at much less cost. Make sure the motherboard has a raid controller so you can add more hard drives down the line.

I use soundblaster, but I know there boards more suited for audio mix that those.

Video I know, audio is another matter.
Richard

[grbenny]

Originally posted by rfmmars
Gary, I just not into that much in the audio field. I build mostly AMD machines, for they are faster that P4 at much less cost. Make sure the motherboard has a raid controller so you can add more hard drives down the line.

I use soundblaster, but I know there boards more suited for audio mix that those.

Video I know, audio is another matter.
Richard

Hi Richard,

All of the audio systems I've built are AMD, and for the same reasons you mention. I have heard that most video guys stick with Intel. Is that not true? Since I've been trying to use the same Athlon PC for both audio and video, I was hoping AMD would be OK! :-)

Since you know video, aside from it not being raid, can you see anything wrong with my system that would inhibit video performance? The details are a couple of posts back. One of the Canopus techs said he thought many my mobo wouldn't be that good for video bacause of limited bandwidth. Someone else said the 32 MB Matrox video card could be a bottleneck, and someone else said it should be just fine! I have no idea!

Are there mobos or graphics cards that are considered great for video? Or are there just certain features any should have? Is dual processor a big benefit?

Take care,
Gary

[rfmmars]

The board that you have would be my choice if I wanted to move away from my ATI AIWs. Due the volume of work that I do, the DV format would require me to triple my hard drive size on all of my work stations.

I was looking at the specs for your card and one thing I saw was the DV requirement for your hard drives, Do they meet those specs?

Windows
> Intel® Pentium® III 800MHz or AMD Athlon™ 800MHz CPU or faster
> 256MB RAM; CD-ROM drive
> Windows® 2000 (requires Service Pack 3 or higher), Windows® XP Home or Windows® XP Professional (requires Service Pack 1 or higher)
> Graphics card capable of supporting hardware-based DirectDraw overlay and
24-bit color display at a 1024x768 resolution
> AV-rated hard disk drive (10MB/sec minimum sustained transfer)
> One free bus-mastering PCI slot (v2.1 or later)
> Microsoft® IntelliMouse® or compatible


One other thing, Your burner should be on the master, not slave, and there should be nothing connected to the slave. I have also found that it is nearly imposable to connect two DVD devices as primary and slave. I see that one has been disconnected. If your capture drive is on the primary with the DVD as the slave, disconnect the DVD and see if the capture improves.

Your board is like the DC30 card which you hava a true video out, unlike my ATI card or any graphics that outputs video, you are really not seeing the fianl video. I have learn what the final video will look like though using the card for a long time.

The plus side of Mpeg2 capture is there is no load put on the hard drive. You can sit there while it is recording, and the hard drive LED blinks once in a while, where when capturing AVI, the LED is on all the time. Thats why you can capture at 15,000 bps CBR full 720x480 or Pal without a frame dropped, never!

AMD is the best choice all around for video. I do have a P4 2.4 gig machine because I read bad comments about AMD system. Well my AMD 1.8 gig machine out proforms the Intell 2.4 gig system, and I have had it overclocked to 3.1 gig with no problems. This adds about 3 fps when using VD plug-ins.

My reason for saying you should always have a raid motherboard is not to use it as a raid setup, but simply so you can have your DVD burner hooked up a primary ATA controller, and I am sure you know this, you never leave any type of CD or DVD stay in the drive while you are capturing.

Richard

[grbenny]

Richard,

>The board that you have would be my choice if I wanted to move away >from my ATI AIWs.

No kidding? Isn't that kind of old-style? Wouldn't it be better to have a newer board, like the ones with 800 mhz FSB? I think mine only has 266 Mhz. Doesn't that lack of bandwidth cause problems?


>I was looking at the specs for your card and one thing I saw was the >DV requirement for your hard drives, Do they meet those specs?

The drive I'm writing video to clocks at about 50 MB/s read and write. The drive with the OS will do about 30 read and 8-10 write.


Windows
> Intel® Pentium® III 800MHz or AMD Athlon™ 800MHz CPU or faster
> 256MB RAM; CD-ROM drive
> Windows® 2000 (requires Service Pack 3 or higher), Windows® XP Home or Windows® XP Professional (requires Service Pack 1 or higher)
> Graphics card capable of supporting hardware-based DirectDraw overlay and
24-bit color display at a 1024x768 resolution
> AV-rated hard disk drive (10MB/sec minimum sustained transfer)
> One free bus-mastering PCI slot (v2.1 or later)
> Microsoft® IntelliMouse® or compatible


>One other thing, Your burner should be on the master, not slave, and >there should be nothing connected to the slave.

Not sure what you mean here. On the primary IDE channel, I have the OS drive as master, and DVD-RW as slave. On the secondary IDE channel, I have only the Video writing drive, as master. I would normally have the DVD-ROM as slave on the secondary drive, but I disconnected it for testing the video capture.

Wouldn't you want the burner on the opposite channel of the video drive? Since you normally would be writing from the video drive to the burner? And you are saying that on the primary channel you would make the burner master and the OS drive slave? Can you explain that? :-) I don't quite get the logic.

>I have also found that it is nearly imposable to connect two DVD >devices as primary and slave.

Ya, I always have them on opposite channels.

>I see that one has been disconnected. If your capture drive is on >the primary with the DVD as the slave, disconnect the DVD and see if >the capture improves.

The capture drive in on the secondary as master. Is it better to have it on the primary channel?

>Your board is like the DC30 card which you hava a true video out, >unlike my ATI card or any graphics that outputs video, you are >really not seeing the fianl video. I have learn what the final video >will look like though using the card for a long time.

Well, I haven't gotten to the point where I am using that yet. So far, I'm trying to get the capture down so I can rely on it. The Premier Pro software has some quirky settings I'm trying to understand too - not explained in the manual! :-)

>The plus side of Mpeg2 capture is there is no load put on the hard >drive. You can sit there while it is recording, and the hard drive >LED blinks once in a while, where when capturing AVI, the LED is on >all the time. Thats why you can capture at 15,000 bps CBR full >720x480 or Pal without a frame dropped, never!

It was my experience too. I could capture MPEG2 with no dropped frames. But doesn't that have problems when you are editing? Isn't it better to compress it after editing? I'm just guessing on this based on my experience with audio. It is better to record a .wav file and edit in .wav format, then compress to mp3 after editing is done - more headroom for editing. I'm doing a lot of comparing of video to audio, but it may not always hold true.

>AMD is the best choice all around for video. I do have a P4 2.4 gig >machine because I read bad comments about AMD system. Well my AMD >1.8 gig machine out proforms the Intell 2.4 gig system, and I have >had it overclocked to 3.1 gig with no problems. This adds about 3 >fps when using VD plug-ins.

That is my experience with audio. AMD performs great with a lot less $$$ invesment.

>My reason for saying you should always have a raid motherboard is >not to use it as a raid setup, but simply so you can have your DVD >burner hooked up a primary ATA controller, and I am sure you know >this, you never leave any type of CD or DVD stay in the drive while >you are capturing.

Still not sure I understand why you need the burner to be primary, but if I build a new system, I am thinking to go raid with dual processors.

What OS do you use. I have read a lot of people still prefer W2K over XP. Is that your experience? I have a copy of W2K, but have XP Home on the computer. I guess if I go dual processor, I will need to go to XP Pro, but I think W2K supports dual processor too.

If I build a new system, what graphics card do you recommend?

Thanks a lot,
Gary

[rfmmars]

I guess your a late nighter too. I think that Win2000pro is it.

What I have found is that the DVD device should be the only item connected to the IDE ribbon. Put the other drives on the raid without creating a array.

You have really in a way solved your problem when you said you didn't drop any frames with mpeg2 files, its a hard drive or hard drive configure problem, either physical or software or both.

Can you edit meg2 files? Hell yes!!! using Virtualdubmod ac3 version 1.5.4, it is a snap. You fly though the timeline, and with no heavy plug-ins, VD is a media player too. Look for some full size Mpeg2 demo files on the net, or rip a .VOB off of a unpertected DVD and import it into Virtualdubmod, you will be amazed.

There's even a MPEG2 plug-in so you can save directly in VDmod as a Mpeg2 or Mpeg1 file. it is a alpha release, but it will do you testing.

As far as the adobe product goes, you will have to try it.

Video card. I was have a problem with my DC30 setup, and I solved it by putting in an old S3 PCI card with two meg of ram.

If you are going to use your Camopus card, and you have video out from it while you are editing and capture, the graphics card really doesn't have much to do with anything.

Richard

[grbenny]

Hey,

>I guess your a late nighter too.

I'm near Portland, Oregon so it's only 11:30 here. Not *too* late.

>I think that Win2000pro is it.

Interesting. I'll use it if I do the all-video computer. I'm pretty sure I will.

>What I have found is that the DVD device should be the only item >connected to the IDE ribbon. Put the other drives on the raid >without creating a array.

Interesting, but OK. :-)

>You have really in a way solved your problem when you said you >didn't drop any frames with mpeg2 files, its a hard drive or hard >drive configure problem, either physical or software or both.

Well, I don't have the USB capture card anymore, but maybe I'll get another one.

The drive I'm using for capture is a 7200 RPM Western Digital 160 GB, w/8 MB cache. It is really fast compared to the Seagates I have been using for audio. The Seagates are fine for audio, but I guess too slow for video. I picked the Seagates for audio because they are silent, which is necessary when you are recoding with a hot microphone.

>Can you edit meg2 files? Hell yes!!! using Virtualdubmod ac3 version >1.5.4, it is a snap. You fly though the timeline, and with no heavy >plug-ins, VD is a media player too. Look for some full size Mpeg2 >demo files on the net, or rip a .VOB off of a unpertected DVD and >import it into Virtualdubmod, you will be amazed.

I will check that out. Do you capture to MPEG2? Or DV then convert the file?

>There's even a MPEG2 plug-in so you can save directly in VDmod as a >Mpeg2 or Mpeg1 file. it is a alpha release, but it will do you >testing.

>As far as the adobe product goes, you will have to try it.

It came with the ACEDVio card. It seemed like a good deal because of the bundled price - you also got Encore DVD and Audition. Buying the three products separately direct from Adobe would cost nearly 3x what I paid for the bundle. Now I just hope it is good software.

>Video card. I was have a problem with my DC30 setup, and I solved it >by putting in an old S3 PCI card with two meg of ram.

>If you are going to use your Camopus card

I think I've had it too long to get a refund, so I guess I'll be using it! Sure hope I can get it to work OK.

>and you have video out >from it while you are editing and capture, the graphics card really >doesn't have much to do with anything.

Really? So, you just bypass the graphics card completely, except for what you are doing in the application? I guess I gotta buy another TV!

Regards,
Gary

[rfmmars]

Yes your video out should be fed by your Campaous card, that's how it was done with the DC30 card. On most graphics cards, all you are going to get is 640x480 plus it is not a good represention of the final product, and also there is a border to deal with. Get a Commadore old S-video monitor at a garage sale or thrift store. cost is about $15.00 With this you will be able to correcly balance your color.

The hard drive that you are using is one of the slowest for video. I have one of those too, but I don't think that's the problem. IBM and Maxtor seem to be perrty fast. Also when you build your new machine, buy two of the same drives so you will not have any problem slaving one to the other.

I capture MPEG2 with my ATI capture software. I have a couple of other bundled MPEG2 capture programs that came with the card, but the ATI is by far the best. If you install the VDF to WDM wrapper you can not do a Mpeg2 capture, only .AVI

I think you will be happy with the Campous card, you have a lot of money invested.

Richard

[grbenny]

Richard,


>The hard drive that you are using is one of the slowest for video.

Most of the stuff I've read says the drive should do at least 10 MB/s. The WD drive does around 50 MB/s, which seems to exceed the minimum requirement by quite a lot. So, I'm not sure what you would get from a faster drive

>I capture MPEG2 with my ATI capture software. I have a couple of >other bundled MPEG2 capture programs that came with the card, but >the ATI is by far the best. If you install the VDF to WDM wrapper >you can not do a Mpeg2 capture, only .AVI

The canopus card only does AVI, and PrePro doesn't give you any options. Will other software convert the input from that canopus card to MPEG? And if so, is there any advantage to that besides smaller files to start with? Can you personally seen the difference between a MPEG2 file and a AVI file?

>I think you will be happy with the Campous card, you have a lot of >money invested.

Well, I sure hope so. I'm starting to have my doubts though!

I did an experiment last night. Tell me what, if anything, you can deduce from this:

A spefic tape of a friends music performance would start dropping lots of frames when it hit 40 minutes. It would be perfect until 40 minutes. So, I copied the tape to a new VHS tape recording from deck-to-deck. I then captured the new tape. Interestingly, the new tape DID NOT drop any frames at 40 minutes!! However, it did drop throughout the tape, without regard to the time. Also, when it dropped frames, it wasn't nearly as drastic as before when it seemed to drop several in a row.

I'm interested to know what you think about that!

Gary

[rfmmars]

Gary...... My evaluation of hard drives are all based on the capture test program of the DC30 card.

What I did next was to see where each drive would start dropping frames as I increase the data transferrate. My test always agreed with the software tests. With Mpeg2 I can't make any drive drop frames

Mpeg2 has two things going for it, one is file size and the other is the speed and ease of handling the clip on the timeline. You can drag the timeline cursor and there is no delay. You can play it in VDmod and its just as fluided as media player.

I capture at 15,000 fps so when I do Post proccessing in VDmod I don't loose much quality.I frame serve out at 8,000. The program I use Magix's Movie Edit Pro2004 does have a 2 gig limit were if the file is larger than 2 gig it has a non linear audio offset. I hope they will have that thing fixed by next release.

Your test points to a possible video sync pulse problem. I take it that the original tape and the copy were played on the same machine for capture. Was the original tape a camcorder tape?

Richard

[grbenny]

I think the original footage was shot on film. It was done several years ago, and I don't know for sure.

Gary

[mustardman]

Sorry, been away for a while, so where I left off...

WinDV is a capture and playback program for DV only. I really suggest you get a copy (~100K, not 10M like some crappy programs that don't even work!). When capturing, a Q=xx is displayed. It tells how many frames (I think) are stored in memory, and how many have been written to disk. It should remain close to 0. When outputting, it should remain close to 100.

Capture from TV (stable signal!) and watch the "Q". If it climbs, or fluctuates, you have a hard disk speed problem. Same when outputting.

Personally I will not use MPEG2 for editing - the reasons are detailed somewhere - basically to do with keyframes. I do all editing in HuffYUV (lossless) and final conversion to DV, and then optionally to MPEG2. VDub may do it, and filesize may be small, but if you want quality, don't edit MPEG.

Frames & fields Every TV frame is made of 2 fields. Pure video source is two interlaced fields. Source from film is still two fields, but interlacing is usually not a problem (in PAL land anyway!). Search Doom9 for info on interlacing, there are some really good explanations out there (and some pretty bad ones too!).

I think I said before, your HD and PC should be way fast enough.

16/48 and 12/32 16bits @ 48KHz stereo & 12bits @ 32KHz quad. These are the two standards for DV material.

IRE I think it stands for Institute of Recording Engineers. They have released many standards.

Your comment that the copy drops less frames than the original is interesting. It is possible that the copy has a more stable signal??? although it would of course not be as good a quality.

Your 50MB/sec sounds like a peak transfer rate, not sustained. For video, you NEED a high sustained data rate.

By the way, once you get all the problems ironed out, your setup should work fine. I know, I did exactly the same (and it took me many many months!)

[BruceL]

When first getting involved with capturing VHS I too experienced dropped frames and stuttering. It drove me crazy for weeks (probably months). I changed hardware, software, settings and ran tests over and over and over again. One night in desperation I looked through my Philips VCR menu and tried changing it's settings. I tried disabling the "Video Stabilizer". Bingo, that was my problem, I guess I had thought all along the Video Stabilizer would help and left it on. Not sure if it helps but when you are being driven nuts, anything is worth a try. Hope it helps.

[grbenny]

>Sorry, been away for a while, so where I left off...
>WinDV is a capture and playback program for DV only. I really
>suggest you get a copy (~100K, not 10M like some crappy programs >that don't even work!). When capturing, a Q=xx is displayed. It >tells how many frames (I think) are stored in memory, and how many >have been written to disk. It should remain close to 0. When >outputting, it should remain close to 100.

Sounds good. I'll check it out.

>Personally I will not use MPEG2 for editing - the reasons are >detailed somewhere - basically to do with keyframes. I do all >editing in HuffYUV (lossless) and final conversion to DV, and then >optionally to MPEG2. VDub may do it, and filesize may be small, but >if you want quality, don't edit MPEG.

Ya, I've read that several times now. Some people do it, but more seems to say no.


>Frames & fields Every TV frame is made of 2 fields. Pure video >source is two interlaced fields. Source from film is still two >fields, but interlacing is usually not a problem (in PAL land >anyway!). Search Doom9 for info on interlacing, there are some >really good explanations out there (and some pretty bad ones too!).

More education for me!

>I think I said before, your HD and PC should be way fast enough.

I hope so!

>Your comment that the copy drops less frames than the original is >interesting. It is possible that the copy has a more stable >signal??? although it would of course not be as good a quality.

Well, the copy tape is new, so the actual tape is probably in better shape.

>Your 50MB/sec sounds like a peak transfer rate, not sustained. For >video, you NEED a high sustained data rate.

I thought it was sustained transfer rate. I have a couple different utilities I checked with, and the results are about the same - EZDVD and Dskbench.

>By the way, once you get all the problems ironed out, your setup >should work fine. I know, I did exactly the same (and it took me >any many months!)

Several people have suggested a time based corrector unit is probably what I need. Canopus has told me the same thing. I found one that looks pretty good - Datavideo TBC-1000 - I could stick between the vcr and the Canopus card. What do you think about that?

Take care,
Gary

[grbenny]

>One night in desperation I looked through my Philips VCR menu and >tried changing it's settings. I tried disabling the "Video >Stabilizer". Bingo, that was my problem, I guess I had thought all >along the Video Stabilizer would help and left it on.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have experimented with the VCR settings, and you are correct. Things seem to work a lot better if all that stuff is turned off. Unfortunately not a compelte cure though.

[mustardman]

Getting a TBC is a good idea, although I would really want to get one on trial or loan first. I am under the impression they are not cheap.

The TBC is not a cure all either, you should be very aware of its' limitations, or else you will get very cross!

Speaking of WinDV, I set up a friends PC for video editing the other day. Loaded up WinDV (as he too was getting crappy results). Captured, but the "Q" indicator was climbing (by about 5 per second). It turned out that his DMA was turned off, turned it on, and ...beautiful!

[grbenny]

>Getting a TBC is a good idea, although I would really want to get >one on trial or loan first. I am under the impression they are not >cheap.

The one I am looking at - Datavideo TBC-1000 - is around $289.00. Datavideo says eveything they sell can be returned for a refund. If it works, it's worth it! If not, no loss I guess. From what I understand, it will make a lot of difference beyone correcting dropped frames.

>The TBC is not a cure all either, you should be very aware of its' >limitations, or else you will get very cross!

I would love to be aware of the limitiations! What are they?!


>Speaking of WinDV, I set up a friends PC for video editing the other >day. Loaded up WinDV (as he too was getting crappy results). >Captured, but the "Q" indicator was climbing (by about 5 per >second). It turned out that his DMA was turned off, turned it on, >and ...beautiful!

Very good! Wish it has been that easy for me.

I have decided I don't want to do video on my audio computer, so I think I'll build a new one just for video. Is there a place on this site - or somewhere else - that discusses the latest and greatest components? Mobo, graphics card, drives, etc.?

Thanks for all the help!
Gary

[maa]

Originally posted by rfmmars
There is a $99.00 program out there called Movie Edit Pro 2004. After using it's sister product and it for over a year, I dumped my Adobe off the hard drive. I had the chance to capture DV off of a Sony TRV-310 with it. Not one dropped frame.
Interesting - its a great program, called VideoDeluxe here in europe. Trouble has always been that its limited to 44.1khz audio for capture and just about everything else.
Have they changed that in the 2004 version ?

[rfmmars]

maa

That's correct, it's used to be called Video Deluxe 2.0 Plus here in the U.S. but they thought there needed to be a name change for the new release.

They are limited as far as capture formats, they have their own .mnx mpeg format that isn't very good, uncompressed .avi, and DV. I have used the DV capture with no faults. Is it possible to specify 48kz in DV format or is that determed by the DV device?

Using umcompressed .avi, they use a WDM wrapper to my ATI AIW card such as the 9000. Using ATI's (Version 8.1 capture software) is where I can choose my audio setting for most any capture program, and 48kz is the defualt out of the box.

In Video Deluxe 2004 it will accept any odd setting like 44.1 kz and will also accept 48kz as well.

I hope that this is the info you needed.

Richard

[grbenny]

Speaking of great programs! Thank you MM for recommending WinDV! I finally downloaded it last night, and successfully capture one of the older VHS tapes that had been giving me a lot of problems! I couldn't believe it! Dropped Frames=0, Q=0 throughout. I had even forgotten to use End-it-All before I started and not a stutter!

The author of WinDV mentions buffers that prevent dropping frames. No kidding! I know from recording audio that buffering is real important in preventing dropouts. Seems like it would be the same for video, and I guess it is.

What surprises me most though, is the multiple other programs I used to try to capture these tapes all failed! Premier Pro, Vegas, Pinnacle Studio, Windows Movie Maker, and a few more. Very interesting.

I will try to capture several more problematic tapes today. Hope my luck holds out!!

Gary

[maa]

In Magix programs if you hit the key "P" you get the audio dialog.
When you're working on a DV project what does it say ?
There was a time when VideoDeluxe would upload DV back to the camera with 44.1Khz audio.

And does it support smart rendering - only changes get re-encoded for NON DV files ?

[rfmmars]

I won't be able to tell you that at the moment, I don't have a DV device, but I will go on their forum to find that out for you.

Richard

[mustardman]

@grbenny
Good to see you're finally getting somewhere! I must say that I have only used 'pinnacle studio' from your list. I got drop-free captures, but in other ways the program was a steaming pile of ... so I dropped it (besides, WinDV at 100K is a much better footprint than the ~10M of studio!)

I am interested to hear how you go with other tapes.

The limitations of a TBC... lets talk some hypotheticals :

To my knowledge, all TBC devices lock their output framerate to 25fps (I am going to talk PAL here, same for NTSC, just at 30fps).

Say incoming frame rate = 24.5 fps. Output is 25 fps. To make up the difference, frames have to be duplicated. In our example, 1 frame out of every 50 would be duplicated.

Say incoming rate = 25.5 fps. Now the TBC has to drop frames, and 1 out of every 50 would be dropped.

Now, if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me! But I was of the understanding that a TBC will not track the incoming frame rate.

In particular camcorder material, the fps will vary. It will be close to 25fps, but not exact. As as the camera is jostled etc, the mechanics of the camera cannot maintain an exact fps.

[grbenny]

>Good to see you're finally getting somewhere! I must say that I have >only used 'pinnacle studio' from your list. I got drop-free >captures, but in other ways the program was a steaming pile of ... >so I dropped it (besides, WinDV at 100K is a much better footprint >than the ~10M of studio!)

I had the same/similar experiences with Pinnacle Studio. Originally, I purchases a Pinnacle Moviebox USB. I got drop-free captures, but it will only capture MPEG2 format. Unfortunately, I could not use Studio 8 - it would crash Windows about evey 5 minutes. What a POS. Some people really have had good luck with it though. I thought the interface was pretty slick - easy to use being a novice. It's going to take me a while to figure out the Adobe stuff.

>I am interested to hear how you go with other tapes.

Captured a couple more and they both did well using WinDV.

Now comes the weirder stuff:

I have been using as a *test* tape a specific one that was dropping lots of frames at specific points in the timeline. When I posted last I was really excited that I had captured it drop-free with WinDV. To verify my test, I then captured it again in Pre Pro, and sure enough, it dropped lots of frames at the same place as always. To further verify my test, I again captured it in WinDV....then....crap.....it started dropping frames at the same spot as Pre Pro! WTF? How can this be????

Then, into my head popped something I must have read or been told by someone - restart the PC before each capture. So, I restarted the PC, redid the capture in Pre Pro, and successfully captured the whole 63 minute tape with ZERO dropped frames. Does this make any sense at all or am i just going mad!

Someone else told me that there is no way WinDV can prevent dropped frames when capturing from the ACEDVio card with a VCR attached. he said the dropped frames would be at the point of the interface between the vcr and the ACEDVio card, and no software would be able to fix it. This is what he said:

"...the A/D-conversion (Analog/Digital-conversion) is still done
by your Canopus card. It was in this conversion that the frames were
dropped, caused by bad (analog) signal quality. Once it is converted to a digital form it is only a sequence of samples, having lost a fixedrelation to time. This is true for audeo and vidio.....Only when you have a digital source with separate time registration, such as miniDV, the dropping of frames causes detectable jumps in time. This is not possible from an analog source, unless the running time of the tape is registered as well. That is actually done in a Time Base Corrector, which builds a complete new time frame."

Does this sound right to you?

>The limitations of a TBC... lets talk some hypotheticals :
>To my knowledge, all TBC devices lock their output framerate to >25fps (I am going to talk PAL here, same for NTSC, just at 30fps).
>Say incoming frame rate = 24.5 fps. Output is 25 fps. To make up the >difference, frames have to be duplicated. In our example, 1 frame >out of every 50 would be duplicated.
>Say incoming rate = 25.5 fps. Now the TBC has to drop frames, and 1 >out of every 50 would be dropped.
>Now, if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me! But I was of the >understanding that a TBC will not track the incoming frame rate.
>In particular camcorder material, the fps will vary. It will be >close to 25fps, but not exact. As as the camera is jostled etc, the >mechanics of the camera cannot maintain an exact fps.

That makes sense math-wise, but what that soudns like is that even when the TBC is working perfectly, and the tape has not signal/quality problems, that the TBC will actually introduce dropped-frames, or at least has the potential to do so. At 1 in 50 that doesn't sound too good. OTOH, it you are using it on a tape that is really bad, 1 in 50 might be just fine.

What do you think of my "restart before capture" theory?

Gary

[mustardman]

Yeah, I have heard about the "restarting" thing. From the symtoms, it sounds like the tape is OK (is able to be captured) but there is somthing screwey with the PC. Maybe an OS or driver thing? - requiring a restart to set somthing right which is not reset properly when you do a straight recapture. A real bummer, will cause you heaps of frustration and lost time.

But the good news, at least you know it is possible to capture properly, and really points the finger to the PC (not the tape or VCR).

My hypothetical, just that. If you really had 24.5fps, you would be in real trouble. In reality, I would expect 1 dropped/duplicated frame about every 5 minutes (whatever the maths, probably 24.999x fps?).

I agree with what the doode told you. A TBC will (attempt) to rebuild the frame. But no matter what (cost depending), it will still suffer from the drift I mentioned. The most critical thing is the analog signal coming from the VCR. There is no way any software can fix a frame that has been lost due to a bad signal.

[grbenny]

Yeah, I have heard about the "restarting" thing. From the symtoms, it sounds like the tape is OK (is able to be captured) but there is somthing screwey with the PC. Maybe an OS or driver thing? -
MM,

>requiring a restart to set somthing right which is not reset >properly when you do a straight recapture. A real bummer, will cause >you heaps of frustration and lost time.

Yep. Those kinds of problems are real hard to troubleshoot. Been there, done that!

>But the good news, at least you know it is possible to capture >properly, and really points the finger to the PC (not the tape or >VCR).

Or the Canopus card. I may start by reinstalling Window - again! Then see what happens/

>My hypothetical, just that. If you really had 24.5fps, you would be >in real trouble. In reality, I would expect 1 dropped/duplicated >frame about every 5 minutes (whatever the maths, probably 24.999x >fps?).

>I agree with what the doode told you. A TBC will (attempt) to >rebuild the frame. But no matter what (cost depending), it will >still suffer from the drift I mentioned. The most critical thing is >the analog signal coming from the VCR. There is no way any software >can fix a frame that has been lost due to a bad signal.

But isn't that what a TBC is supposed to do? It was my understanding hat it would prevent dropped frames by amplifying or fixing in some way uneven signals from a tape that is old or otherwise in poor condition. In my case though, if the problem is PC based, the TBC would probably not fix the problem. Might be nice to have one though!

Take care,
Gary

[mustardman]

@grbenny

I am in two minds about a TBC. I have an external Cannopus ADVC100, which does Analog <-> DV and a firewire to the PC. From my understanding, it pretty much has a TBC "built in". All a TBC is is a chunk of memory (a frame store) with an A/D on the front end and some sync detection circuitry (done in a "do it all" chip after the A/D conversion these days). The ADVC is pretty much the same thing.

The advantages of a real TBC is that it will usually store 2 frames (more expensive ones even more), so the output "lags" behind by 1 frame (the audio is sometimes delayed, sometimes not - depending how much cash you part with). Having 2 frames allows the frame "ahead" to vary its' "fullness", while the "current" frame is output (basically acting as a floating buffer). The better TBC will be able to cope with long term drift (eg: 24.999 fps), but I would imagine the cheap ones won't. Again, if I have this wrong, somebody please correct me!

A TBC will fix bad tapes, but are usually confined to tidying up bad sync signals, not actually adjusting the timing. They can adjust the horizontal sync somewhat, but I doubt the vertical. The reason is that the A/D converters run from a fixed frequency clock. There are always the same number of lines per field, or frame, so to cope with vertical sync drift, you would either have to change the number of lines per frame, or change the master clock.

It seems as though your Cannopus card is fine (hardware wise), but the "restart" problem may be caused by the Cannopus drivers, and not the windoze install. How you determine which is which...???...

[maa]

@rfmmars
It is frustrating, I got the Demo of VideoDeluxe 2004 and it STILL can't capture from an analog source with audio at 48Khz - yes capture works in the demo. All export functions are dissabled although it does say it does smart rendering on DV and Mpeg. I got VDL 2.0 along with Samplitude Pro but it realy ties you to its own format - (no avi codec choices and wrong audio frequency) also no option to compile DVD to HD - shame 'cause the video editor is the best I've tried. Maybe I'll try to get the Samplitude Development team to pass on some improvement suggestions.

[grbenny]

>I am in two minds about a TBC. I have an external Cannopus ADVC100, >which does Analog <-> DV and a firewire to the PC. From my >understanding, it pretty much has a TBC "built in". All a TBC is is >a chunk of memory (a frame store) with an A/D on the front end and >some sync detection circuitry (done in a "do it all" chip after the >A/D conversion these days). The ADVC is pretty much the same thing.

I sent Canopus a note asking about the ADVC300, specifically regarding the built-in TBD. The reply told me that it was of the type that would fix some things,but not dropped frames. I am at work and don't have the note here, but I could forward it to you later if you like.

>The advantages of a real TBC is that it will usually store 2 frames
>(more expensive ones even more), so the output "lags" behind by 1 >frame (the audio is sometimes delayed, sometimes not - depending how >much cash you part with). Having 2 frames allows the frame "ahead" >to vary its' "fullness", while the "current" frame is output
>(basically acting as a floating buffer). The better TBC will be able >to cope with long term drift (eg: 24.999 fps), but I would imagine >the cheap ones won't. Again, if I have this wrong, somebody please >correct me!

Yes, I would like to know this too. The one I am considering is the Datavideo TBC-1000. I don't know if it is considered cheap or not, but I sure don't want to purchase it if there is the potential that it will introduce problems.

>It seems as though your Cannopus card is fine (hardware wise), but >the "restart" problem may be caused by the Cannopus drivers, and not >the windoze install. How you determine which is which...???...

Ya, good question. I don't know if there is a driver update but I will check.

Take care,
Gary

[maa]

Originally posted by grbenny
>I am in two minds about a TBC. I have an external Cannopus ADVC100, >which does Analog <-> DV and a firewire to the PC. From my >understanding, it pretty much has a TBC "built in". All a TBC is is >a chunk of memory
Uh - excuse me for saying this - its not a news-reader its a forum.
Quoting like you do is very difficult on the eye and hard to assimilate.
Please use the accepted methods.
Thank You

maa

[grbenny]

OK. Didn't realize it was considered bad form, but now that you mention it, the '>' doesn't exactly end up in the intended place anyway.

Gary

[hendrix]

@mustardman - from my understanding the ADVC-100 doesn't have a built-in TBC, the ADVC-300 does hense the price difference.

@grbenny - I've been using the Pinnacle DV500 since it was version 1.1 and experienced drop frames from certain VHS tapes and before I would start pulling out my hairs..I pulled out the DV500 instead and bought the ADVC-300 because of the TBC and everything is in perfect sync...I dont work for Canopus but this card is freaking awesome.

[grbenny]

@grbenny - I've been using the Pinnacle DV500 since it was version 1.1 and experienced drop frames from certain VHS tapes and before I would start pulling out my hairs..I pulled out the DV500 instead and bought the ADVC-300 because of the TBC and everything is in perfect sync...I dont work for Canopus but this card is freaking awesome. [/B][/QUOTE]

I tried using a Pinnacle USB interface and I didn't have any dropped frames, but the audio and video would be completely out of sync. It was horrible. At this point, Canopus won't return the ACEDVio - I guess if I pushed it they would maybe take it back to test it - but dang, I have 599.00 US in that thing - well, that's including the Adobe bundled software, which I guess is worth it compared to buying it separately.

Sticking a unit like the Datavideo TBC-1000 between the vcr and the ACEDVio looks like it might work. What do you think?

Gary

[hendrix]

Originally posted by grbenny
Sticking a unit like the Datavideo TBC-1000 between the vcr and the ACEDVio looks like it might work. What do you think?

Gary

ya it might work...what about investing in a SVHS Pro Deck...they have built-in TBC and since Betacam is now the standard, I've seen some pretty cheap SVHS decks on ebay - im thinking about getting one myself. at my tv station we have 2 TBCs for broadcasting, we broadcast 2 channels...

the TBC-1000 looks good - let me know how it works if/when you get it

[grbenny]

Originally posted by hendrix
ya it might work...what about investing in a SVHS Pro Deck...they have built-in TBC and since Betacam is now the standard, I've seen some pretty cheap SVHS decks on ebay - im thinking about getting one myself. at my tv station we have 2 TBCs for broadcasting, we broadcast 2 channels...

the TBC-1000 looks good - let me know how it works if/when you get it

What brands of SVHS pro decks would you recommend? One of the reasons I thought the TBC-1000 might be cool is the ability to dub to up to decks at once. Sounds like it might be useful in that regard.

Gary

[hendrix]

Originally posted by grbenny
What brands of SVHS pro decks would you recommend? One of the reasons I thought the TBC-1000 might be cool is the ability to dub to up to decks at once. Sounds like it might be useful in that regard.

Gary

at work we use SONY Decks - we've never had any problems with them...i dont remember off hand but i believe it was the EVO or EV?series..i saw them on EBAY for $200USD...not bad considering they were $2-3000+ originally...happy hunting

[hendrix]

correction...it was the Sony SVO series