WMV9 a SMPTE standard?

[temporance]

Anyone know what's happening about this? I know standards bodies are slow at the best of time, but maybe we can soon get to take a look under the hood of WMV9.

Any news?

[McoreD]

With the DVD Forum's provisional approval, Microsoft codecs cleared the technology bar, winning a vote for best picture quality from 19 other companies on the group's steering committee, according to Majidimehr. Members of the DVD Forum steering committee include Disney, Warner, Sony and Panasonic.

DVDs must store 2 million pixels to produce the resolution of a high-definition picture, whereas a TV-quality picture is comprised of 400,000 pixels. Majidimehr said Windows Media technology can store three to five times more information on an HD-DVD, producing a high-quality resolution with economies for manufacturers.

SMPTE is expected to rule on Windows Media 9 as a standard candidate within the next year.

News Source: http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5166786.html?tag=nefd_lede

[Sagittaire]

DVD to WMV9 with WMA9 Professional 5.1-channel and Subtitles

How make subtitles with WMV9 / WMA9 / WMV ... ???

[McoreD]

Originally posted by Sagittaire
DVD to WMV9 with WMA9 Professional 5.1-channel and Subtitles

How make subtitles with WMV9 / WMA9 / WMV ... ???

Sagittaire, That's in the Knowledgebase. :)

[damrod]

thx!!!

i know how to encode ac3 5.1 to 5.1 compressed format...in aac for exemple :-)

[Sagittaire]

smi file is an external subtitle file ... ;-(

[Doom9]

With the DVD Forum's provisional approval, Microsoft codecs cleared the technology bar, winning a vote for best picture quality from 19 other companies on the group's steering committee, according to Majidimehr.Best quality, yeah right. How about biggest payoff? Or most DRM laden?

[bond]

its easy to win over h.264 as simple no really usable, tuned implementation of h.264 exists (but they are coming)


imho wmv9 (they call it vc-9 now, i suppose to get away of the windows/m$ based name, everyone loves so much :D ) is included cause the hollywood studios want it, as atm it offers lower licensing costs as h.264

the hardware production side will surely vote on h.264, as most hardware manufacturers, ie sony, philips, sharp, jvc aso... are also holding patents on h.264 and will make sure to have it included

i think the consensus will be that simply both codecs (and mpeg-2 for backwards compatibility) will be included, to satisfy both, studios and hardware side

but wait... who asks the users?
noone (doom9 already meantioned the DRM stuff, HD-DVD will surely be copy-protected as hell)

[Sirber]

If HD-DVD uses DMR, movie piracy will increase by 2000% :)

[Sagittaire]

Best quality, yeah right. How about biggest payoff? Or most DRM laden?

For me WMV9 is a very good codec with Post-Process off or PP1. WMV9 is better than XviD with or without Post-Process but RV10 and VP6 better than WMV9 ...

http://jfl1974.free.fr/images/SSIM.gif

For very high bitrate and high definition WMV9 and WMA9 pro 5.1 is the best solution for me ...

I am not paid by micro$oft ... ;-)

[bond]

Sagittaire
i think we already discussed that you shouldnt draw and shout out too easily ultimate "i have found the codec who suits best for all situations" messages/conclusions from a testing done with 1 (or a few) sample, namely the harry potter trailer ;)
if you make that statement at least clearly add what sample(s) you tested with what settings aso...

also on hydrogenaudio you would get bashed for stating wma9 pro to be the best solution for multichannel without showing abx results :D

enjoy using wm9 ;)

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by bond
) is included cause the hollywood studios want it, as atm it offers lower licensing costs as h.264

Maybe you didn't read this (http://www.dvdforum.org/25scmtg-resolution.htm) carefully enough.

Provisional approval of MPEG2, WM9 (VC-9) and MPEG4 AVC(H.264) Video CODECs as mandatory for the HD DVD Video specification for playback devices, subject to (a) an update in 60 days regarding licensing terms and conditions, (b) a presentation by each of the respective licensing bodies at the next SC meeting and (c) possible elimination of any of the above CODECs at the next SC meeting.

[bond]

Originally posted by Latexxx
Maybe you didn't read this (http://www.dvdforum.org/25scmtg-resolution.htm) carefully enough. well i quoted this passage already yesterday here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71801) ;)

but ok maybe "is included" was not the 100% correct expression, maybe "is included into consideration" would have been better :p

[Sagittaire]

WMV9 is an excellent codec and I am not the only one to think that:
With the DVD Forum's provisional approval, Microsoft codecs cleared the technology bar, winning a vote for best picture quality from 19 other companies on the group's steering committee, according to Majidimehr.

WMA9 pro is an excellent codec and I am not the only one to think that:
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/128extension/results.html
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=14091&hl=wma9+pro

WM9 is an excellent solution and particularly for high resolution
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/ContentShowcase.aspx
http://jfl1974.free.fr/Video/LOTRII-WMVHD.rar


To know if to use the WM9 is a judicious choice is an another question ... !!!

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by bond
well i quoted this passage already yesterday here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71801) ;)

but ok maybe "is included" was not the 100% correct expression, maybe "is included into consideration" would have been better :p

I meant more
an update in 60 days regarding licensing terms

[ChristianHJW]

I am certainly not the one defending M$ here, but its wrong to assume that their DRM standards will also make their way into HD-DVD, if WMV9 gets chosen as a possible codec.

Its more likely the standardization body will agree on a new container for the standard, with a specific DRM system sitting on top of all possible codecs. After all, it would be much to difficult for hardware devices to support several DRM standards, especially if they are sophisticated ....

[temporance]

My theory is that WMV9 is proposed for HD-DVD for one reason only: to scare the sh!t out of the H.264 licensors so that HD-DVD gets H.264 licensing at a reasonable rate. I mean, really, is HD-DVD going to have 3 alternate video standards???

[SeeMoreDigital]

As far as I'm aware Microsoft with its WMV9 codec is currently the only company out there to prove that it's codec actually works when encoding and decoding 1920x1080 and 1280x720 true 16:9 image pixel frame sizes.

I've tried various Mpeg4 formats (not with H.264 I hasten to add) and there's no way you can encode or decode 1920x1080 image pixel frame sizes, using either progressive or interlaced mode. It's even a struggle to encode and decode 1280x720 image pixel frame sizes.

God knows how any of these prospective codec manufacturers are going to be able to encode HD material 'on-the-fly' from an Mpeg2 HD source. Without the use of an P4 3.6GHz processor and 256MB graphics card!

Whatever anybody wants to say about M$ there's no denying that their codec works in the 'here and now'. That said can somebody please explain why RealMedia's RM10 codec is'nt in the running?

Cheers

[Sagittaire]

WM9 it's also a very powerful WMA9 audio codec ...

Chanels: 1.0 to 7.1
Sampling: 8 Khz to 96 Khz with 16/24 bit
LossLess, quality, CBR, VBR in 2 pass

[temporance]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
As far as I'm aware Microsoft with its WMV9 codec is currently the only company out there to prove that it's codec actually works when encoding and decoding 1920x1080 and 1280x720 true 16:9 image pixel frame sizes.

I've tried various Mpeg4 formats (not with H.264 I hasten to add) and there's no way you can encode or decode 1920x1080 image pixel frame sizes, using either progressive or interlaced modes. It's even a struggle to encode and decode 1280x720 image pixel frame sizes.

I've tried this too, with DivX and xvid. Not too hard, given a recent PC and graphics card. You need to avoid the more CPU-intensive MPEG tools and playback should run around 70-90% on a machine like the one in your sig. You may also have to disable postprocesing. WM9 has a similar CPU load, but we don't know what encoding tools (e.g. qpel) they have disabled.

You should also have no trouble decoding HD MPEG-2 on your system.

As for H.264, we'll have to wait and see.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by temporance
...I've tried this too, with DivX and xvid. Not too hard, given a recent PC and graphics card. We have tried at work to encode 1920x1080/1088 in Mpeg4 XviD/DivX using full 1.77:1 material (ie: all image with no mattes sourced from the Euro1080 satellite at 25fps) And we could not get it to work properly at all!

We had far more luck converting the HD Mpeg2 stream to an 1280x720 Mpeg4 XviD/DivX frame size though!

Can you PM me with the tools you used please?

Cheers

[temporance]

Ah, I just remembered, my source was 24fps, but that shouldn't make too much difference. Also, I'm certain 1280x720@24fps worked, I can't remember what happened with 1920x1080@24fps. I do remember interlace was a killer though.

In both cases, I used pretty standard AviSynth, Vdub, VfW encoders to AVI file. And WMP to playback.

What problem did you encounter? Problems playing back in real time?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by temporance
...I can't remember what happened with 1920x1080@24fps. Well it's this frame size that many HiDef users will want to encode to (whether it be in 24, 25 or 30 frames per second) in order to maintain the same pixel size as their 1080i source material.

And there's no way I've been able to play back Mpeg4 encodes correctly.

However, with WMV9 it is possible (and there are quite a few examples on one of M$'s web sites). It's also possible with RealMedia!

Cheers

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by temporance
My theory is that WMV9 is proposed for HD-DVD for one reason only: to scare the sh!t out of the H.264 licensors so that HD-DVD gets H.264 licensing at a reasonable rate. I mean, really, is HD-DVD going to have 3 alternate video standards???

:eek: :eek: ... thats a very interesting theory, and a very possible scenario also. Being a salesman for machinery myself, it happens to me several time every year that we are invited to quote onto a project, just to force the preferred supplier to give some reasonable discount. Not quite a fair approach from the customer you may think, but very normal procedure these days ....