The Real 10 Platform

[karl_lillevold]

What is the Real 10 Platform?

You are already familiar with some components of this release, but now with new names:

RealVideo 10 : This is the new and official name for RV9 EHQ, which has been in Beta since a few months back and released for testing here, with various improvements added along the way, much based on feedback from this forum. RealVideo 10 corresponds to the latest version of RV9 EHQ discussed here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66132), but with a slightly different way to choose codec and encoding complexity. Since it is RV9 EHQ it is fully backwards compatible with older players which has the RV9 decoder. It is an encoder side improvement, where as you know we gain quality by letting the encoder spend more time making wise decisions.

RealProducer 10 : This is what was developed as the Helix Producer 9.2 in the Helix Community. What is new since the latest Milestone is that the most recent RV 10 encoder DLL is included (as discussed above), AAC has replaced ATRAC3 as the high bitrate audio codec, and a GUI version of Producer is now finally available! (as a Preview release, the Producer team has been very busy). The Producer SDK on Windows also includes HE-AAC encoding.

NEW:

RealAudio 10 : This is a family of audio codecs. New codecs are AAC, RealAudio Lossless, and RealAudio Multi-channel. RA8 (cook) is used for 96 kbps and below. HE-AAC in the form of aacPlus from Coding Technologies is included on Windows.

RealPlayer 10 : The next version of RealPlayer, now back to the name everyone recognizes, with many improvements, and friendlier than before. I will probably start another thread on this topic by itself, since I am sure there will be plenty of feedback. It includes full support for AAC ripping, and AAC and HE-AAC playback. RealPlayer 10 includes a new audio and video guide, as well as an integrated music store. Download the RealPlayer10Beta (http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=d9) for Windows 98/NT/2000/XP.
See How to make RealPlayer 10 behave nicely (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68399) in case you have doubts ;)

RealPlayer Music Store : The music store integrated in RealPlayer 10.What is different about this compared to the other stores, is that it uses 192 kbps AAC for the best possible audio quality, while other stores use 128 kbps of various formats. At the launch it includes 300,000 songs and more added every day.

Helix DRM 10 : Our latest DRM technology.

For more information, see The Real 10 Platform (http://www.realnetworks.com/info/real10_platform/) on realnetworks.com.

FAQ

Producer 10

Where can I download Producer 10?
RealProducer 10 Basic Preview (GUI) (http://www.realnetworks.com/products/producer10/index.html)

Helix Producer 10.0 Beta from helixcommunity.org (https://www.helixcommunity.org) in the Binaries section (Binaries -> (click here for distribution binaries) -> Helix DNA Producer -> Command Line Application)
If you have older RealProducers installed, be aware that your PATH environment variable may be set so that the wrong producer.exe is called when try to use Producer 10 cmd line. You will then get very confusing errors.

I hate the limitations in RealProducer 10 Basic. What can I do?
Personally I agree, and your feedback has been forwarded. Making the Plus version free is now being considered. In the meantime, the command line Helix Producer 10.0 has all the features of RealProducer 10 Plus, except the GUI. Use Helix Producer 10.0 with one of the soon to be updated front-ends, or be part of a small l33t and use the command line directly.

RealPlayer 10

Where can I download RealPlayer 10?
The free RealPlayer 10 Beta, English version, can be found here, with no re-direction or small font links: http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=d9

Is it available for any other platforms than Windows?
No, not yet. OS X is planned, no ETA. For Linux, we have focused on the open source Helix Player (https://player.helixcommunity.org).

Is this any better behaved than previous RealPlayers?
Yes, but please read How to make RealPlayer 10 behave nicely (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68399).

RP 10 looks almost the same. What are the improvements?
Please see this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68399). It also includes information about some of the improvements.

I am having trouble installing RealPlayer 10. The installer does not work.
Maybe .r1pclean.exe (http://www.lillevold.com/files/r1pclean.zip) will help. Did you ever install a 'codec pack'? This should remove all remnants of old players, codecs and reg keys, as well as RealProducers and RealServers, hopefully also codec packs, which may be causing this problem in the first place, I don't really know.. Use at your own risk.

I have tested that it does clean up after RealAlternative and allows RP10 to be installed. It usually reports "Cannot load setu3260.dll", but still does registry cleaning. Without running .r1pclean.exe first, RealPlayer 10 fails to run after installation, when RealAlternative is installed.

RealVideo 10

Is it true that RV 10 is the same as RV9-EHQ
Yes.

So it's fully backwards compatible with RV9 decoders then?
Yes, it even has the same FourCC code 'rv40'. When playing RV10 in RealPlayer 10, we added some special bits that identify the format, such that it displays RV10. Older players will display RV9.

How do I encode with the best possible quality?
Choose rv10 as the codec. It defaults to the best possible quality. For lower quality but faster encoding, choose rv9, or for backwards compatibility with certain mobile devices, rv8. Separately, each codec has three encoding complexity levels, 'high', 'medium, and 'low'. For the details please see this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=425131#post425131). Also see the encoding advice in the main RealVideo Information thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40392) and the thread on RealVideo 10 'Elysian' (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71022) for a completely new 2-pass rate control.

RealAudio 10 : AAC and HE-AAC

Is aacPlus (AAC+) the same as HE-AAC?
Yes. HE-AAC (High Efficiency AAC is the name used by standardization in MPEG). aacPlus was Coding Technologies' name for their technology while developing it.

Which file format is AAC wrapped in when encoded in Producer or ripped in RealPlayer 10?
The current file format for AAC is RM (.ra). RealPlayer Gold will instead rip to ADTS .aac, but the feedback concerning the preference for MP4/M4A has been forwarded, and for Gold the format will most likely change.

Why is not HE-AAC encoding supported in RealProducer, or why does not RealPlayer 10 rip music to HE-AAC at 96 kbps and below?
RealPlayer 10 does not currently rip to HE-AAC, because we did not license it for general encoding, as well as lack of HE-AAC codecs for many devices we need to support.

What are the new 4CC codes for the AAC codec flavors when wrapped in RM?
raac: AAC or HE-AAC
racp: HE-AAC
The player's AAC decoder, raac.dll, can decode both AAC and HE-AAC.

Which file formats for AAC and HE-AAC are supported in RealPlayer 10?
RM of course *). Raw ADTS (.aac) plays back without problems. MP4 wrapped AAC and HE-AAC files also play, but auto-update does not work for mp4. To get the components needed, try to open .aac file in RealPlayer. RealPlayer will auto-update with plugins for H.263 Video and 3GPP. Don't worry, this also means AAC. Also read the question below re auto-update and .mp4 files.

Playback problems with HE-AAC in RealPlayer 10
RealPlayer 10 can not currently play back HE-AAC in RM due to two bugs: 1) the AAC renderer plugin does not recognize the 4cc racp for HE-AAC, triggering an auto-update request. Hex-edit to raac is possible. However, then 2) raac.dll will crash, due to another bug. Both bugs have been fixed, and will be included in the Gold release of RealPlayer 10. In the meantime, you get obtain a fix here: HE-AAC (racp) fix for RealPlayer 10 Beta (https://helixcommunity.org/beula/download/). Note that neither of these bugs affect how Media Player Classic plays back HE-AAC in RM, even when it uses the buggy raac.dll. You need the latest release of MPC: 6.4.7.6 or higher.

When I try to open .aac or .mp4 file in RealPlayer 10, it opens the web browser to play the file, instead of running auto-update
This is caused by the .aac or .mp4 filetype being registered on your system. It is unfortunate that in order to get around this, you have to delete the filetype you are trying to open (AAC or MP4). It is easy to re-create though afterwards, with whichever is your player for this format.

Is it possible to encode HE-AAC in Helix Producer 10?
Yes *), at least in the command line version of Helix Producer. However, the HE-AAC encoder does not ship with Helix Producer 10 or RealProducer 10, but instead the Helix Producer SDK as an add-in. The AAC codec name is 'raac', the HE-AAC codec name is 'racp'. The codec flavors (bitrates) can be found in Producer's documentation and in this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=424167#post424167).
*) No, currently, due to a bug. Will be fixed in next Milestone, you can also get a fixed DLL here (https://helixcommunity.org/beula/download/).

Does the RealAudio 10 AAC codec support 5.1?
No 5.1 for AAC encoding. Perhaps later. The Multi-channel Producer 10 codec is RA8 based. AAC 5.1 playback works.

What are the plans for file formats and HE-AAC in RealPlayer 10 and Producer 10 Gold?
This is still being decided.

How can I trans-mux AAC in RM losslessly to another AAC format, for instance iPod compatible M4A?
that's easy. all you need is mkvtoolnix from
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64548

1) Then run
mkvmerge -o mkafile.mka rmfile.ra

2) before
mkvextract tracks mkafile.mka 1:aacfile.aac

3) finally, if you need iPod compatible M4A, just run
mp4creator60 -aac-profile=4 -optimize -create=aacfile.aac ipodfile.m4a

You can also use graphedit with Gabest's RealMediaSplitter and a muxer. I know it works with Gabest's Matroska Muxer.

I have an AAC file of format Y. It does not play in player X.
I did some testing of various file types and containers. Here are the results. You can download the samples in my aac_samples (http://www.lillevold.com/files/aac_samples) folder.

MPC 6.4.7.5 +
RM RP10 raac Core 3ivx
rm_aac128.rm | ok | ok | ok | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok | ok | ok | ok
rm_he-aac32.rm |ok 1)| ok | ok | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm |ok 1)| ok | ok | ok
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok | - | ok | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok | - | ok*| ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | # | - | ok*| ok
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok | - | ok | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok | - | ok*| ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | ok | - | ok*| ok

MPC chooses decoders and splitters automatically, but can be configured. With RP10 installed, it prefers raac.dll for RM files (raac = Coding Technologies decoder), otherwise uses DirectShow decoder, if available. Configure in MPC in options, filter, over-rides, which DS filter is preferred, if many are installed.

DirectShow parsers:
.aac : AAC Parser Filter
.mp4 : 3ivx Media Splitter
DirectShow decoders:
Core = CoreAAC 1.0b9
3ivx = 3ivx D4 4.5

# = no go, usually crash
1) : requires fix, see question on HE-AAC playback problem
ok*: appears to decode SBR info, but does not display AAC+SBR

More...

I have answered many more questions in several posts further down in this thread, if you still can not find the answer to your question, please post it.

[Tuning]

Now with HE-AAC RV10 will be the ultimate compression platform.
Karl, Thanks for the info!.:)

[Atamido]

I presume that the Real container bitstream has not changed? (Still on 1.0?) I was just wondering if any of the extraction tools would need to be altered.

[Dark-Cracker]

does the rv-aac codec support 5.1 output ?

++

[datascab]

Hey, How long before us mere mortals can enjoy Real 10 (audio/video) without shelling out for the plus version.

Does the new AAC based encoding still require the downsampling to 44.1kHz?

Has rmeditior been changed at all, specifically allowing lossless cut and join? :)

Real is still my encoder of choice :)

Keep up the good work!

Data

[LiFe]

Hmm, enough features to make a Real 9.5 platform. w/o a new video codec it's not Real 10.

Amusing that after spending all that money advertising the RealOne concept, it's dumped in a single version upgrade...

Amusing that we get a new video codec every 4 years, and every alternate 4 years we get an audio update, hehe.

Really looking forward to upgrading asap!

R.
LiFe.

[iwod]

I think sirber would still remember my post about Rv9 EHQ being Rv10.

Not it seems it wasn't all my rumors. It is now a FACT!

Vp6 is currently leading the game in Low Bitrate encoding where RealVideo has nearly NO serious competition at all in the past.

However i would always think that Karl would have something up his sleeve.....

It is also good to know the AACPlus is included. BUT, just to remind all that accPLUS is slightly different to HE_AAC. Whichever is better it will be still be better than the good old cook @ 64 Kbps.

Not to mention that there is still quite a bit of room for aacplus to be tweaked. ( Not that means we will get it.... )

On the Video Side and producer side. I think it is the marketing and the head who make the decision for naming it as Real10. I really hope that apart from the planned much updated version of PP in Realplayer, there will be some other major improvement as well. And I would still like to see a decoder only pack for Rv10 to be used with MPC.
Since with all these Real Store thing i think RealPlayer will be as bloated as it use to be.

[iwod]

Here is a quick view on RealPlayer 10.

It is basically an updated RealONE. I would call it RealONE V2.1
It is 9.33Mb Dowloaded compare to 8.27Mb of RealONE v2
It is a new features Called Perfect Play which basically cache some file when playing Streaming clips on internet and provide smoother playback.
It has new option that allow you to set message centre to not update itself and may be not to pop up.
It has a new play list, that looks abit like winamp style playlist.

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by iwod
BUT, just to remind all that aacPLUS is slightly different to HE_AAC

No it isn't. AacPlus is just a marketing name for Coding Technologies' HE AAC encoder which was originally competing against Dolby Aac for the position of HE AAC.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=13841&

[DAvenger]

Downloaded, installed, got error message about missing uninstaller :confused: Run, didn't start at all, when uninstalling got uninstaller not found error message :scared:

You better check your install scripts ...

[Sirber]

Will AAC and HE-AAC works in Matroska?

[bond]

karl:
(how) will real support the .mp4 container?

Originally posted by Latexxx
AacPlus is just a marketing name for Coding Technologie's HE AAC encoderexactly
he-aac = aacplus = aac+ = aac+sbr

the official notation in the mpeg-4 standard is he-aac (aac is part of the mpeg-4 standard) and it is also most widely used afaik (you will find the most results by searching for he-aac on doom9 and hydrogenaudio i guess)

Originally posted by Sirber
Will AAC and HE-AAC works in Matroska?of course it already works for a long time

[Sirber]

even the AAC(+) from RMVB? :)

[bilu]

Originally posted by bond
karl:
does this mean he-aac encoding is possible? or only decoding?
(how) will real support the .mp4 container?
"It includes full support for AAC ripping, and AAC and HE-AAC playback.", probably not HE-AAC ripping :confused:

By MP4 container do you mean audio-only MP4 streams?


Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by Sirber
even the AAC(+) from RMVB?sure if there is a way to unpack it from the container real uses (this excludes drm'ed he-aac files)

sirber
thats the beauty of an open standard like mpeg-4 (which aac is part of):
many suppliers can offer different implementations of the open standard and they all are compliant with each other!
the same goes with mpeg-4 video (like xvid, divx5, 3ivx, nero digital are all mpeg-4 codecs)

but to be 100% spec compliant you would have to use the container defined in the mpeg-4 standard and thats mp4 (also not avi)!
i guess real will use their *.rm container, but the aac bitstream in it is 100% complaint with a he-aac bitstream produced by nero for example (and i am pretty sure coreaac will handle it)
the great thing with an open standard is you can choose which implementation you like best (as both will not produce the same quality for example)

and thats why i dont like proprietary formats like wmv9 and rv9, as they dont follow an open standard, which everyone can follow and everyone can build a codec following this standard

Originally posted by bilu
By MP4 container do you mean audio-only MP4 streams?yes as a first step
as rv9 and rv10 isnt mpeg-4 complaint they cant really put such realvideo streams in mp4, which means that mp4 could only be used for aac audio in real

[Sagittaire]

Very good news karl ... ;-)

[Happygolucky]

I got tired of RealPlayer when it began hijacking your computer on install. I tried RealOne Player to see if it still ran roughshod over your system. It did and does. So, is Real's newest player equally guilty of an attempted coup of your computer? With the advent of RealAlternative and the fact that I now encounter a Real Media file only rarely, I'm not taking the chance that installing this new RealPlayer will corrupt my computer and force a complete reinstall of the operating system just to get rid of it and its bugs and spies.

[Sirber]

@bond

I don,t see that beauty at low bitrate :D

[bond]

sirber ;)

[karl_lillevold]

Thanks for all the good feedback and questions! Enough to start a small FAQ already..

Some answers, hopefully I did not miss too many:

@AAC enthusiasts: AAC and HE-AAC questions
The current ripping format is AAC wrapped in RM (.ra), but raw AAC and HE-AAC (ADTS) play back without problems. AAC wrapped in MP4 also used to work, but it was decided to not include it in this Beta version, since we do not currently also play back MP4 video, due to licensing issues. If you happen to obtain our MP4 renderer, MP4 wrapped files will play back. RealPlayer 10 does not currently rip to HE-AAC, frankly because it was too expensive to license it, as well as problems obtaining HE-AAC codecs for all devices we need to support.

@Pamel:
I presume that the Real container bitstream has not changed? (Still on 1.0?) I was just wondering if any of the extraction tools would need to be altered.
container format should be the same, I have not yet tried much AAC encoding, or extraction, but will.

@D-C:
does the rv-aac codec support 5.1 output ?
No 5.1 for AAC. Perhaps later. The Multi-channel codec is still RA8 based.

@datascab:
How long before us mere mortals can enjoy Real 10 (audio/video) without shelling out for the plus version.
A "Helix" Producer will be out shortly. Personally I wish they did not have a Basic/Plus differentation even for the commercial version of Producer. The Basic version is crippled enough to not be useful for anyone but the most casual user.

Does the new AAC based encoding still require the downsampling to 44.1kHz?
I think so. Will check.

Has rmeditior been changed at all, specifically allowing lossless cut and join?
No.

@LiFe: Historically, we have released a new video codec every two years, but there is nothing to stop this trend from changing with for instance RV 11. What's new with RV 10, is that it uses the same bitstream as the previous codec. This is a great advantage for content creators who do not like to change formats that require a player update, as well as hardware device porting.

@iwod:
Vp6 is currently leading the game in Low Bitrate encoding where RealVideo has nearly NO serious competition at all in the past.
In terms of PSNR in Sagittaire's latest test, VP6 leads by a small margin, yes. In general, as you know, subjective opinions vary greatly, and other views have been posted. Personally I think VP6 is RV10's closest competitor in terms of compression efficiency. On2's very skilled codec developers have made great progress.

@DAvenger: Install (uninstall) problem. How to remove old players and codec packs
Weird problem. I am sure QA ran the installer uncountable number of times without running into this, or it would have been fixed. Sounds like it tried to uninstall old RealPlayer(RealOne), but uninstaller was missing. Codec pack, perhaps? Not sure what I can do, since I really need some more information to file a bug report. Maybe .r1pclean.exe (http://www.lillevold.com/files/r1pclean.zip) will help. This should remove all remnants of old players as well as RealProducers and RealServers, hopefully also codec packs, I don't really know.. Use at your own risk.

RealPlayer improvements..
Yes, the UI looks very similar, with perhaps too few changes IMHO, but there are plenty of improvements under the hood. Better and more accurate video playback with less jitter. LivePause and fastforward. Much improved music library. Everything is smaller, faster and quicker, but it was never meant to be a video only player, which MPC and others do so well.

Despite its many features, uses less memory than WMP and iTunes, and does not run +10MB of background services like one of these, name withheld. MPC already works with the new DLLs included in RealPlayer 10. Oh, and did you know you can play the songs purchased from other music stores in RealPlayer 10? I just played a song I bought from iTunes. And of course integration with a long list of h/w devices, as well as the new RealGuide and Music Store.

RealPlayer 10 does not do any attempts to "hijack" your computer. It asks to be player for filetypes once, you make a selection, it never asks again, or tries to recover filetypes. You can turn the Message Center completely off, as well as all auto-updates. I know how annoying previous versions were. This is not perfect, but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

However, as has been the case for a while, no one is forcing you to ever run it to play back RealVideo and RealAudio, since there are alternatives for video enthusiasts, but I fear that codec pack installers do not install or uninstall properly, and may really mess up your system. If you want to use another player, install RealPlayer, perhaps run .r1pclean.exe (http://www.lillevold.com/files/r1pclean.zip) first, if you have a lot of old Real DLLs or codec packs around.

[S_O]

This sounds really great. I would like to see a complete overview about the new codecs and flavors, unfortunately this file isn´t updated yet:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/AudienceFile/AudienceDefaults.xls
Or is a new version somewhere else?
does the rv-aac codec support 5.1 output ?
No 5.1 for AAC. Perhaps later. The Multi-channel codec is still RA8 based.Does that mean both, encoding and decoding is not supported?
If not, please do not make a general error message like "An error has occured while opening the file". I really like QuickTime here it says something like "This file uses ... Quicktime doesn´t suppport yet: MPEG-4 Video: MPEG Quantization"
A general error message is making people angry, because they don´t know why it´s not working.
Does the new AAC based encoding still require the downsampling to 44.1kHz?
I think so. Will check.But the decoder plays all samplerates/bitrates or only the one the Producer can encode?

I remember Real had a deal with Xiph about Vorbis support in RealPlayer? Does RealPlayer support any kind of Vorbis yet? I guess the possibility to mux it into rm is not even started. Or is this completly old and Vorbis has been replaced by AAC now and all started Vorbis support will be removed again?

...is that the most recent RV 10 encoder DLL is included...My first thought: What?? Why the hell do they plan to add encoding support for RealVideo 5 (FourCC: RV10)???? The difference in the numbers in FourCC and the name is sometimes a bit misleading. But this is still RV40, right?

[Blight]

karl:
Which direction is Real heading toward? Codec or Playback? I mean, why not release your codecs under a DirectShow setup, at least for the un-ecrypted stuff, or implement your own directshow based DRM. Using a fixed player limits user exposure to your content and the currently available RealAudio/Video wrapper is not perfect and is certainly not future-proof.

[RadicalEd]

RealProducer Basic 10 still has max startup latency capped at 25, not sure if this was overlooked or just one of the Basic version handicaps.

edit- also, lossless audio doesn't seem to be in the audio codec menus.

[Sigmatador]

karl: just thx for your work (and to other devs too)


hs: vp6 and rv9 seems to have been improved using doom9 forum feedbacks. I hope this public beta-testing tendance will keep on :D

[Wilbert]

Hi Karl,

I was reading Ars, and they formulated the following questions:


There's one last observation to be made. RealPlayer supports iTMS songs (only if iTunes and thus QuickTime 6 is installed on the local computer). Is this a tip of the hat to Apple's 30 million song accomplishment and 70% market share? Maybe so, but Real didn't crack Apple's encryption, but rather goes through iTunes (computer authorization) to decode the files (QuickTime) and play the content. If iTunes (and QuickTime in particular) can function as a free programming interface for Apple's own DRM, there's nothing to stop Winamp and friends from using Apple's DRM as well (we,, aside from telling people that they need to install competing software). So, the question is, did Real find this free "backdoor itself," or is Apple licensing it and staying quiet about it, or is this just a further extension of QuickTime's API? The latter option is most likely true, which leads me to ask: who's next?

I was just curious about the answers :)

[slavickas]

Does registry tweaks works with new basic producer ? and what is complexity for 1rst pass?

[Sirber]

The Producer SDK on Windows also includes HE-AAC encoding.Does that mean we can encode HE-AAC?

[karl_lillevold]

some more answers:

@S_O: Audience specs with codecs and flavors on hc.org
The hc.org audience spreadsheet has not yet been updated. Included with RealProducer in the docs folder are HTML docs with a table with all the latest codecs, including AAC (raac).

64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 0 44.1 kHz
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 1 44.1 kHz
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 2 44.1 kHz
160 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 3 44.1 kHz
192 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 4 44.1 kHz
256 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 5 44.1 kHz
320 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 6 44.1 kHz

Multi-channel AAC encoding vs playback
There is no multi-channel AAC encoding. Multi-channel playback? Perhaps.. If not I will file a bug report. Let me know. I don't have any multi-channel .aac files to try.

Improved error messages in RealPlayer
Good advice. RealPlayer's dreaded "A general error has occurred" has bugged me many a time.

AAC playback at 48 kHz
The AAC decoder should play all sample rates. I have no test clips for 48 kHz though. If you have a location where I can get both 48 kHz and multi-channel AAC files, I will be happy to test and file bug reports for whatever does not work.

Vorbis support in RealPlayer
This does not appear to work. It is for sure included with the open source Helix Player though.

RealVideo 10 FourCC code
RealVideo 10, being fully backward compatible, still has FourCC 'RV40'.

@Blight: Codec or playback
Good question, much bigger than I can answer. Certainly not codec only, but there is the codec aspect (See http://www.helixcommunity.org/realcodecs ). There is work going on to better document and make available the codec interfaces. Not sure about ETA.

@RadicalEd: MSL capped at 25 in GUI and missing RA Lossless in menus.
Thanks for finding these bugs. They have been filed and will be fixed.

@Wilbert: Playback of iTMS purchased songs
I can not imagine there being a backdoor.

@slavickas: Does registry tweaks works with new basic producer ? and what is complexity for 1rst pass?
Yes, registry tweaks all work, but with RealVideo 10 being selected as the codec, the only complexity related setting that's needed, is the firstPassComplexity setting, since the current default is to use the same complexity in both passes. When RealVideo 10 is selected as the codec, this corresponds to RV9-EHQ at complexity level 85.

@Sirber: HE-AAC encoding in Producer
The HE-AAC DLL (racp.dll), with codec name 'racp', is not distributed with the Producer Application for licensing reasons, but it is included with the Producer SDK.

[snowcrash]

Just downloaded the new Producer 10 Basic to check out the GUI tool. Looks pretty nice. I tried to enable resizing for my video.

"You must upgrade to RealProducer Plus to enable this feature."

What does the Plus version cost, 200 bucks? No thanks. Microsoft provides a free GUI encoder to their users with all the features enabled. This thing is useless to me without resizing.

[karl_lillevold]

@snowcrash: Yes, I know. :scared: It does not make sense to me either, and I am trying to change it. A "Helix" version of Producer 10 will be out soon though, command line version, but full-featured.

[Sagittaire]

EHQ with quality mode is enable ... ???

[iwod]

@Karl

Is the new PP included in RealPlayer 10? Or is it still currently being developed?

[karl_lillevold]

@Sagittaire: I am not 100% sure I understand your question, but let me try to illustrate. Remember it's all really the same codec.

85 RV10 high
75 RV10 medium
65 RV9 high RV10 low
57 RV9 medium
50 RV9 low

Both RV9 and RV10 default to 'high' unless you specify otherwise. The encoding mode (CBR, VBR, Quality) is not related to encoding complexity. As you can see from the above chart, 'RV10 low' is the exact same as 'RV9 high', and 'RV10 high' = RV9-EHQ with 85.

You can still use the reg key. Set it to 75 or higher and you will get RV10, set it to 65 or lower and you will get RV9. Both RV9 and RV10 are encoded by the same encoder, and the encoder complexity is really what determines the "codec name".

[CruNcher]

hehe i don't know what to think about this marketing gag but it's very odd especialy the Producer Plus and Basic thing lol but i think that's the american way of life to fool customers ;) Ehhh Karl you didn't sugested to get the Warez version of RealProducer 10 Plus did you :D

[Sirber]

Can we still use the number if EHQ instead of his name and don't bother with this RV9/RV10 thing? :)

@snowcash

use other GUI. all functions works :)

[satori]

Karl:
Realnetworks will rerease tools to convert RA10 to AAC or mp4?

Please say your boss DO NOT ask mail adress and personal info at the end of install realplayer.
I hate real want to collect personal info.I always put fake adress and info.

[Sirber]

Is dropdupe included with priducer 10?

[LiFe]

Too bad level 2 partners don't get betas. I'm sure there's plenty of crap I could complain about before it went gold : )

LiFe.

[Sirber]

what is level 2 partner?

[lazyn00b]

Shame on LiFe! The first rule of Level 2 Partners is "There are no Level 2 Partners" ;)

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
@Sirber: HE-AAC encoding in Producer
The HE-AAC DLL (racp.dll), with codec name 'racp', is not distributed with the Producer Application for licensing reasons, but it is included with the Producer SDK.yummie :)

when will the sdk be available? and will this dll be usable in realplayer or helixproducer than?

[Sirber]

is ATRAC3 still avalible? or it was replaced by AAC?

[bilu]

Originally posted by Sirber
is ATRAC3 still avalible? or it was replaced by AAC? Read the first post, "AAC has replaced ATRAC3 as the high bitrate audio codec"

Bilu

[karl_lillevold]

I really need to move some of my answers to the first post, in an FAQ section. Will do shortly. In the meantime:

@iwod: Is the new PP included in RealPlayer 10? Or is it still currently being developed?
If you are asking about the minor improvement to add back some high frequency spatial information.. sorry, not complete in time to be included.

@CruNcher: hehe i don't know what to think about this marketing gag
I rather liked my RV9-EHQ name :rolleyes:, but marketing wanted to collect all the new developments into one main '10' release. It is also RealNetworks' 10 year anniversary coming up.

@Sirber: Can we still use the number if EHQ instead of his name and don't bother with this RV9/RV10 thing?
Yes, when Helix Producer 10 is available, do change to using 'rv10' as the codec name in the audience file. Like I mentioned, without any encoding complexity, you will then get RV9-EHQ @ 85. The cleanest and preferred method is to use 'rv10' + high, medium, or low encoding complexity (-eco switch to Producer)

@satori: Realnetworks will rerease tools to convert RA10 to AAC or mp4?
No, but I am sure someone else will. Gabest is working on a splitter update right now. For Gold, I think RP 10 will rip to .aac as well, but this has not been finally decided yet.

Please say your boss DO NOT ask mail adress and personal info at the end of install realplayer. I hate real want to collect personal info.I always put fake adress and info.
Yes, me too, and most others, but RealNetworks has to generate revenue somehow. RealPlayer is its main instrument for this, and we need to document the number of users. Use fake info if you like.

@LiFe: Too bad level 2 partners don't get betas. I'm sure there's plenty of crap I could complain about before it went gold
I am sure too, but it's available for free for everyone here:
http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=d9
This is for Windows only, for now, top link, the others are older versions.
Linux playback of the latest formats is via the open source Helix Player (https://player.helixcommunity.org/).

@bond: SDK availability?
Not sure. will let you know.

Oh, on slashdot this morning, there was the usual flurry of negative responses to kforeman's Real 10 announcement (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/08/0238251&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188), where he even referred to Doom9 : "In developing RealVideo 10, our codec team has been working closely with the Doom9 community".

I posted this reply (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=91989&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&tid=188&mode=thread&cid=7916039), but it was probably too late to be read by most :(

[iwod]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold

Oh, on slashdot this morning, there was the usual flurry of negative responses in response to kforeman's Real 10 announcement (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/08/0238251&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188), where he even referred to Doom9 : "In developing RealVideo 10, our codec team has been working closely with the Doom9 community".

I posted this reply (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=91989&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&tid=188&mode=thread&cid=7916039), but it was probably too late to be read by most:(

WOW!. That is lots of reply.... but at first sight it is all negative post. It seems these people still don't understand how good is RV9EHQ
or now RV10. I now understand that what sirber is saying about Vp6 encoding @ low bitrate. Rv10 is still the best on Anime on low bitrate.

@Sirber
you need to join in the slashdot message chain to convince them now... :devil: :D

[S_O]

Helix DRM 10 : Our latest DRM technology.
AFAIK Helix is an open-source project (everything except the codecs), does that mean your DRM is open-source (I´m yust hoping, but I think I know the answer)?
If not, is there at least a dll which is useable for Gabest´s filter for example like the codec dlls?

(so it can be decrypted with a valid license like iTunes m4p or M$-DRMv2 and saved unencrypted without decoding)

[zedude]

i just found realplayer installed a directshowfilter on my system, it's called RealPlayer Audio Filter : is it meant to play ra10 files with every dshow based player or an internal filter for RP ?

any date for helix producer 10 ? ( i only use jobfiles and producer basic wants 200$ for this :D )
it's out , nice !! let's give it a try :)

[karl_lillevold]

Helix Producer 10.0 Beta is available
from helixcommunity.org (https://www.helixcommunity.org) in the Binaries section (Binaries -> (click here for distribution binaries) -> Helix DNA Producer -> Command Line Application)

This includes all the latest updates, including the SDK.
Command line only.

It would be great when the various front-ends get around to updating, since this includes the latest improvements that until now has been available only via a separate DLL (1st pass speedup).

If you have any questions, let me know. The encoding complexity settings are now finalized. It is as simple as choosing 'rv9' or 'rv10' as the codec name. RV10 will be EHQ (85), RV9 will be good ole' RV9. All the old settings and tweaks still work. The only improvement that needs to be enabled with audience file or reg key, is the 1st pass speed-up.

Thanks to all the front-end GUI programmers! I apologize things have been changing, especially the encodingComplexity setting, but this has been un-avoidable considering how this community has helped test and improve during the development.

[RadicalEd]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
This includes all the latest updates

Everything that was done with the 9.2 series dlls? The improved twopass and high frequencies, and b-frame control? Just making sure.

[RadicalEd]

Oh, something I just remembered, I recall talk of implementing EHQ into RV8, don't remember whether it went through or not. Either way, what's the status of that in the new producer series?

[karl_lillevold]

@RadicalEd: yes and yes. All improvements so far are included, EHQ in RV8 as well. The EHQ in RV8 does not include all parts of EHQ in RV9, and there is no improved 2-pass VBR, or fast 1st pass, but you do get better quality in 'high' encodingComplexity. In Producer 10, 'high' is the default complexity for all codecs, rv8, rv9, and rv10.

[RadicalEd]

Great, thanks. And now a minor Helix Producer doc error:
disableLoadManagement [ job ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disables load management/CPU scalability functionality.

Load management occurs during real-time operation and enables codecs to reduce the complexity, and hence CPU requirements, in order to maintain steady state operation. This option should generally only be used for testing or in cases where there is a strong reason to disable automatic load management. Disabling load management may result undesirable behavior in cases where encoding load requirements exceeds available system resources.

Default:
false

Values:
Any valid Boolean Value where:

A value of 'true' means 2-pass encoding is enabled (file is analyzed in 1 pass and encoded in a 2nd pass)
A value of 'false' means 2-pass encoding is disabled (file is encoded in 1 pass)
Type:
bool

Example:
<disableLoadManagement type="bool">false</disableLoadManagement>


The two pass description was copied to the load management description in the Job File reference.

[RadicalEd]

Some more stuff.
The audience documentation says that max and average bitrate can be any integer between 1 and 999999 bps. Hopefully that's a bug, and producer isn't limited to encoding < 976 kbps.

Second, in the audio codec list, 128 kbps raac is stuck in between 64 kbps cook and 64 kbps raac and improperly labelled as flavor 0. It is in the right place further down at raac 2, though.

64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio cook 24 44.1 kHz RealPlayer 8
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 0 44.1 kHz RealPlayer 8
64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 0 44.1 kHz RealOne Player
96 Kbps Stereo Music cook 13 44.1 kHz RealPlayer G2
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio cook 25 44.1 kHz RealPlayer 8
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 1 44.1 kHz RealOne Player
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 2 44.1 kHz RealOne Player
160 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 3 44.1 kHz RealOne Player


Third, Startup Latency is again labelled as 4 - 25.
Values:
Any number value between 4-25.0

And on a more minor note, since these have been like this for awhile, the audio section still contains an encodingType chart that doesn't actually apply to any of the audio codecs AFAIK, unless it was implemented into raac.
Similarly, the video section containes two encodingTypes that don't exist, vbrUnconstrainedQuality and vbrUnconstrainedBitrate.

That's all from the Audience File Reference Doc.

edit- another minor thing, erv4.dll is still labelled "RealVideo9 EHQ + xVBR1" in the producer codecs directory.

[phrentec]

is there a list of standalone/cd mp3 players that will support the realaudio format, future(with aac support) and current ones. Thanks Karl.

p.s. I might get the toaster(mobo) as well.

[karl_lillevold]

RadicalEd: thanks for all the problem reports! I will forward the documentation errors to the right person, as you can imagine the Producer team has been swamped getting this release ready, and there are a few areas in need of polishing. I will fix the DLL version info myself.

maxBitrate is a doc error.

That line in the list of AAC codec flavors should be deleted. I found that one myself earlier today.

Max Startup Latency should be 4-60, but there is a bug in the GUI that prevents anything above 25. No problem in the cmd line producer though.

phrentec: any player that will support AAC should work. Extracting AAC from the .ra files is no problem, if that's what it takes. The main reason they are currently written out as RM files is that this is what is supported throughout our system, and working out all the quirks with another fileformat takes some time. RealPlayer 10 Gold will most likely rip directly to AAC.

(toaster PC : very nice, but mine overheats a little too easy when encoding. Then it gets very noisy with its small power supply fan)

[datascab]

Karl,

I did an encode last night using rv9 ehq and cook 5.1.

When i play it in the new real player the visual stutters and the sound doesnt play properly (like when the old reg hacks werent done).

I can play it in mpc though.

Question as well, if i want 6ch playback in mpc, where can this be set?

Is the new aac based 5.1 technically better than the cook 6ch and if I encoded using the new codec would this help with the sound issues above.

I used the reg hack for 1st pass vbr ehq and for the 1st time I have found that the resultant avg video bitrate and total file size were out.

Predicted avg should of been 1793kps and it ended up 1693kps

Predicted final file size should of been 1860Mb and it was 1875Mb

Not much difference on file size but the bitrate and bits/pixel are way off.

Is this something that happens because of the different EHQ settings?

Thanks for all the good work.

Data

Addition, I see the visual problem does exist in mpc also.

Should I revert back to realone with the 5.1 reg hack and modded files?

[bond]

is the he-aac dll also included in the helix sdk?

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
any player that will support AAC should work. Extracting AAC from the .ra files is no problem, if that's what it takes. The main reason they are currently written out as RM files is that this is what is supported throughout our system, and working out all the quirks with another fileformat takes some time. RealPlayer 10 Gold will most likely rip directly to AAC.i doubt that currently available aac players will play aac-in-ra or even plain .aac files
afaik as good as all important ones (ie ipod) need them in the mp4 container

aac-in-mp4 is simply the mpeg-4 spec compliant way:
you cant really seperate the two as you store the tags in mp4, the flag for he-aac is on mp4 level (you dont find an info if the stream is he-aac or not in the .aac file), the postgain flag is in mp4, the gapless playback is stored on mp4 level aso...
to sum it up you could say mp4 and aac have some sort of symbiosis :D

also (till now) all aac encoders output .mp4 files by default...

i hope real will not make a difference here cause i think it will only result in a mess and will strengthen m$ with its wm system

we, the users, need as much interoperability as possible! :D

[Sirber]

Is AAC recoreded as a "stéréo-music" or a "surround" codec? Does it supports 48kHz freq?

[datascab]

Hey Siber,

I think I read that the new aac based codec is only for stereo and only @ 44.1kHz.

I'm sure Karl can clarify this.

Data

[bond]

Sirber
of course you dont have to use reals aac codec!
simply use neros aac codec and enjoy multichannel and 48khz (in realplayer or whereever else you want to play it)

mpeg-4 gives you the freedom of choice (once again thats the beauty of it ;) )

[Sirber]

damn, too much questions!!! :scared:

- For EHQ using "string" instead of "uint", does RV8 use the same EHQ setting as RV9?
- For RV8, does the first-pass tweak works?

mpeg-4 gives you the freedom of choice (once again thats the beauty of it ;))RealAnime and Surreal IU gives me freedom, and none of them uses mpeg-4 :p (yeah, I know, Surreal UI will support mpeg4, bit it'S not it's main goal :D). I can't use Nero or whatever GUI external app, since my main goal is point&click batch encode using my own GUIs :)

[karl_lillevold]

Yes, the MP4 container is great for HE-AAC and AAC. Like I mentioned, we have MP4 playback working, but it was decided not to make our MP4 renderer available for auto-update, because it would confuse the average user, if he or she then tried to play MP4 video, which we do not currently support, since we have not yet worked out the licensing problem, even though we in fact have our own implementation (not Envivio's). It may be possible to obtain our MP4 renderer through auto-update when trying to play 3GPP content... I am not sure, I get it from our build repository manually.

We could have avoided the confusion with better error messages, as was suggested, but alas, perhaps for Gold.

You see, MPEG-4 is all well and nice for interoperability, but when we give away the player for free, the licensing terms are too expensive, I have been told. For Gold, I am not sure if RealPlayer will rip to AAC or MP4 fileformat. I hope MP4.

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
because it would confuse the average useri guess you will confuse the average user more by storing aac in .ra cause they will expect to get a .m4a or .mp4 output as known from all other aac encoder (and only usable that way on ipods etc...) :D

lets hope that real changes its mind and rips aac directly into .mp4 (not only with gold) and adds a nice error message if someone tries to play a video mp4 (like "realplayer doesnt support mpeg-4 video playback") and than only plays the aac audio...

[karl_lillevold]

i guess you will confuse the average user more by storing aac in .ra cause they will expect to get a .m4a or .mp4 output as known from all other aac encoder (and only usable that way on ipods etc...)
I hear you, and the codec team has strongly been pushing another output format than RM for AAC, because we knew there would be issues like these. Unfortunately we only have "one" vote in a rather complicated decision process. I will be sure to forward this forum's feedback to the right channel.

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
I hear youok than i will stop the ranting now ;) :D :rolleyes:

edit: and i splitted the "what codec brings more freedom" discussion
continue here if you want: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68444

[karl_lillevold]

@datascab: sorry, i temporarily lost your questions:

I did an encode last night using rv9 ehq and cook 5.1.
When i play it in the new real player the visual stutters and the sound doesnt play properly.
RP 10 has been in testing for many months now, without these problems showing up. Could you please PM me so I can get you in touch with the right person to file a bug report. I can probably not directly help you on this one. You have a 5.1 sound-card, right, which is DirectShow enabled?


Question as well, if i want 6ch playback in mpc, where can this be set?
This is a question for Gabest in his MPC thread, it works like a charm for me without any special settings. It does appear like your 5.1 setup perhaps is not working right. Make sure your RM playback in MPC is set to DirectShow. Everybody has trouble finding that setting ("hidden" pulldown in Formats menu, end of each line)

Is the new aac based 5.1 technically better than the cook 6ch and if I encoded using the new codec would this help with the sound issues above.
Our AAC does not encode in 5.1, at least not yet. Only cook does. Which is better is subjective, but in /music/ tests on Hydrogen Audio, VBR HE-AAC scored higher than cook.

I used the reg hack for 1st pass vbr ehq and for the 1st time I have found that the resultant avg video bitrate and total file size were out.
Predicted avg should of been 1793kps and it ended up 1693kps
Predicted final file size should of been 1860Mb and it was 1875Mb
This does not make much sense I am afraid. when bitrate appears lower, filesize should be lower. This must be a bitrate calculation problem in whichever encoding GUI you used.

But out of 1860 Mb, 15 Mb oversize is not that bad :) Remember, we have an MSL buffer, and we do not take drastic steps to try to empty it towards the end of the encode, perhaps we should.

[Latexxx]

What are the codec flavours for the racp.dll? Its own readme file refers to the producer manual and the producer manual doesn't have the required information on setting the bitrate.

[karl_lillevold]

64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 0 44.1 kHz
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 1 44.1 kHz
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 2 44.1 kHz

However, there is a bug which prevents it from working
https://helix-dna.helixcommunity.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1108

Co-incidentally, there is also a bug in the decoder DLL that ships with RealPlayer 10 Beta, that prevents playing back HE-AAC in RM.

However, both bugs have been fixed, and it will be included in the next Milestone, or perhaps a patch before then.

[Sirber]

AAC+ not bellow 64kbps is a shame... :)

[Latexxx]

I'd like to see 32 kbps! After all it's made for streaming.

[Sirber]

yep. I don't know if the bugs where there intentionally...

[karl_lillevold]

Good points, although cook works very well for streaming. I agree though, and will see if perhaps this can be changed in a future release.

[Latexxx]

At least Ahead's HE AAC performs better than cook even at 64 kbps: http://audio.ciara.us/test/64test/results.html

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Latexxx
At least Ahead's HE AAC performs better than cook even at 64 kbps: http://audio.ciara.us/test/64test/results.html Yep, 2Ch AACplus does sound good at 64kbps. And when consider that 6Ch audio is also possible at this bitrate too... I think it's pretty amazing that you can hear anything at all!

Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

Added FAQ in first post. Thanks for all the questions and feedback! Hopefully I included the potentially most frequent ones. If not, let me know.

[satori]

I got racp.dll from SDK and put it to codec folder of helix producer 10.
But Producer can't call codec.What should I need more for HE-AAC RA10 encoding?

[bond]

satori
where did you download the sdk?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Damn and blast!

I've just downloaded and started playing with the Basic Preview version of 'Helix Producer 10' and well, damn it, it's just too good!

Last night I encoded the Harry Potter trailer that Sagittaire uses for his codec test, and I have to say the resulting encode was most impressive.... damn again!

Now, at work, the business uses Helix Producer Plus (v9.0.1). Which I enjoyed using quite a bit coz I like the GUI. But as I'm not into 'borrowing' software from work for use with my home PC's I am stuck with the Basic version for the time being.

Very nice work guys,

Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by zedude
i just found realplayer installed a directshowfilter on my system, it's called RealPlayer Audio Filter : is it meant to play ra10 files with every dshow based player or an internal filter for RP ?

You are right! To be honest I have no idea what it's doing, or why it's there, but I will try to find out. It is not for decoding or playback of any of the most common formats. I tried to delete it *), to see what then would not play back, but did not find anything right away.

*) C:\Program Files\Real\RealPlayer\rdsf3260.dll


@SeeMoreDigital: Thanks.

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by bond
where did you download the sdk?

helixcommunity.org -> binaries -> command line application
and
binaries -> sdk -> aac thinggy

Don't bother. The HE AAC doesn't work using the current producer version.

[robUx4]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
phrentec: any player that will support AAC should work. Extracting AAC from the .ra files is no problem, if that's what it takes. The main reason they are currently written out as RM files is that this is what is supported throughout our system, and working out all the quirks with another fileformat takes some time. RealPlayer 10 Gold will most likely rip directly to AAC.

Would it be possible to produce some code for the HelixCommunity that would enable Matroska support in the RealPlayer (with and with RealAudio/Video content) ? I mean technically, is it possible ?

[S_O]

Would it be possible to produce some code for the HelixCommunity that would enable Matroska support in the RealPlayer (with and with RealAudio/Video content) ? I mean technically, is it possible ?
What about native writing of matroska files in HelixProducer, it is open-source, someone could add it, if it´s good they may take it into official builds, and with very good luck the even probably take into RealProducer? Also native playback in RealPlayer would be great.
Don't bother. The HE AAC doesn't work using the current producer version.I´ve also tried that, but since the bug is fixed, would a fresh CVS checkout fix the problem?
The problem is the helix-site is very unclearly and unstructured, I couldn´t find a good guide to make one (I can´t find anything, the search function doesn´t work, the design is good, but navigation is terrible [nearly impossible]), sometimes it is written like for dummies, other parts are not really understandable.
I extablished a SSH Tunnel with a tool called "Putty", that works, but what settings do I need to make a CVS checkout with TortuiseCVS?
I´ve tried cvsroot: :pserver:s_o@localhost:/cvs (like in the guide) and module ribosome, but doesn´t work.
Also tried: :ext:s_o@localhost:/cvs
Then I tried :pserver:s_o@cvs.helixcommunity.org:/cvs, but I server doesn´t respond, then I tried :ext:s_o@cvs.helixcommunity.org:/cvs, it asks me for a password, but my password doesn´t work. The tried:
:ext:tunnel@cvs.helixcommunity.org:/cvs, I enter the password for the ssh-tunnel and I get this message:
"cvs checkout: warning: unrecognized response `Tunnel established. Type ctrl-c to exit.' from cvs server" (the same message does putty prompt) But then it doesn´t do anything, and I have to cancel. How to do a simple CVS-checkout???

[karl_lillevold]

Re Matroska file-writer for Producer
What about native writing of matroska files in HelixProducer, it is open-source, someone could add it, if it´s good they may take it into official builds, and with very good luck the even probably take into RealProducer?
It would be fantastic if someone wrote a Matroska file-writer plugin for Producer. I am pretty sure we would then distribute this file-writer with Milestone builds of Helix Producer 10.

If there is a volunteer, I would be more than happy to assist as much as I can, even though I will have to forward many questions to the Producer team.

Re HE-AAC
This turned out to be a trivial problem in Producer's audio codec wrapper/interface code that did not handle 'racp' requests correctly. Get the fixed rnaudiocodec DLL from helixcommunity.org (https://helixcommunity.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=50).

Now the problem is playback. Even though I have a decoder DLL that is supposed to be fixed with its HE-AAC problem, it does not appear to handle the 'racp' 4cc code, and the player tries to auto-update. I will investigate ..also waiting for Gabest to figure out how to handle these in MPC..

Re Helix Community and CVS access
Everybody agrees about the web site and how hard it is to find what you are looking for. In just a short while this will be completely re-worked though. Re CVS: This is probably not the right place to assist you with this, but the guide has been known to work, even though there are some tricky parts, like having the right env variables, CVS login, SSH, etc. I always use CVS command line and have not had any problems with this. I would recommend the #helix channel on our IRC (appears to be down right now) or the Producer mailing list. I should also warn that the SSH method to access our CVS will change completely in a few days, so perhaps it's not worth it to spend too much effort until these changes are complete.

[S_O]

This turned out to be a trivial problem in Producer's audio codec wrapper/interface code that did not handle 'racp' requests correctly. Get the fixed rnaudiocodec.dll here (temporarily until it's available from helixcommunity.org). The link doesn´t work, but I found the correct one:
rnaudiocodec.zip (28KB) (http://www.lillevold.com/files/rnaudiocodec.zip)
I should also warn that the SSH method to access our CVS will change completely in a few days, so perhaps it's not worth it to spend too much effort until these changes are complete.
I´ll wait until the new method is working. Hopefully it is not required to use 27 different programms yust for one simple CVS checkout, why can´t it be as simple as sourceforge or corecodec?

[robUx4]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Re Matroska file-writer for Producer

It would be fantastic if someone wrote a Matroska file-writer plugin for Producer. I am pretty sure we would then distribute this file-writer with Milestone builds of Helix Producer 10.

If there is a volunteer, I would be more than happy to assist as much as I can, even though I will have to forward many questions to the Producer team.

I will forward this to the team and see how we can proceed. For sure we would be very happy to work on this !

[karl_lillevold]

Re HE-AAC playback

It turns out two corrections are needed..

1. Hex-edit .rm (.ra) file to modify 'racp' to 'raac'. This is needed because the player and auto-update are not yet set up to handle 'racp'.
2. obtain fixed raac.dll, available soon. there is a bug resulting in a crash playing HE-AAC in RM. So without this DLL, the hex-edited file from step 1 will still crash the player :(

As you can see, HE-AAC in our system is not yet well handled, but it is possible to make it work.

Re CVS etc
I have forwarded your feedback. I think everyone agrees less tools are better. In our case, encryption is required, but it will be handled differently soon, hopefully simpler.

@robUx4: Excellent! I will find out more about where a good place to start is.

[bilu]

Originally posted by robUx4
I will forward this to the team and see how we can proceed. For sure we would be very happy to work on this ! Please work on extraction of audio and video streams from Matroska as well. I know there hasn't been too much demand yet, but the lack of tools can give opportunity to accuse the Matroska team of locking in their format.

Fair play is enough motivation to work on this tools IMHO.

Bilu

[S_O]

Please work on extraction of audio and video streams from Matroska as well. I know there hasn't been too much demand yet, but the lack of tools can give opportunity to accuse the Matroska team of locking in their format.What is needed is a general rm(vb)-muxer, which allows to mux streams from rmvb and also supported streams from .mp4/.aac/.mka/.mkv/.ac3 into rm(vb). Then you could encode 40kbps HE-AAC Audio with Nero and mux it toghether with video into rm(vb). Is there any rm(vb)-muxing tool im planning/developement at Helix/Real?

Yust installed RealPlayer, but it refuses not only to play HE-AAC files, also normal aac-files. It tries an auto-update, then I get this error-message (in german):
Für diesen Inhalt liegt kein Software-Update vor.
Inhaltstyp(en):
raac.

Could it be that the german version is not updated yet? The version info says "RealOne Player(tm) (win32) Version 2.0" I clicked on this link in your first post: http://www.realnetworks.com/info/real10_platform/
At RealPlayer 10 I clicked at "Learn more" and was redirected to:
http://germany.real.com/index.html?lang=de-DE&loc=de
Here I clicked at "Gratis RealOne Player", then on "Nur RealOne Player-Gratisversion runterladen", I arrived at this downloadpage:
http://forms.real.com/real/realone/intl/intl_realone.html?dc=11111019&type=rd_de&lang=my&src=ZG.de.idx.rp_chc_2.760.rp_chc_2,ZG.de.r1p.r1p.760.r1pp_r1pb&nonrdx=yes
Does Real 10 Platform info-page link to an old Player??

[karl_lillevold]

I don't know whether or not AU for the German player has been updated with AAC, but it does not appear to be.

The English version of RealPlayer 10 Beta includes raac (the one that crashes with HE-AAC in RM, but works for AAC in RM). Please see the FAQ in the first post, RealPlayer 10 section, which I edited right now, for a direct download link with no re-directions.

The problem with your download appears to be the German locale website has not been updated, probably because the German version of RealPlayer 10 Beta is not yet ready.

[S_O]

The problem with your download appears to be the German locale website has not been updated, probably because the German version of RealPlayer 10 Beta is not yet ready.It´s not very intelligent to link the local sites from the Real10-Info when they doesn´t excist yet. Maybe something like "Unfortunately a german version of RealPlayer Version ?? ist not avaible yet. You can download the english version here or download Version ?? in german here"
Since a german version isn´t avaible yet and it is still buggy I´ll delete the player and install the alternative again.

[karl_lillevold]

yes, I had already sent an e-mail about the web re-direction problem before your latest reply. Hopefully it can be fixed. It is very confusing. Thanks for noting this problem!

[karl_lillevold]

I was playing around with various AAC file types and found out that MP4 wrapped files play back fine in RealPlayer, but only after a .aac file has been played to obtain the necessary components via auto-update. Could someone try to verify? Changes to the FAQ:

Which file formats for AAC and HE-AAC are supported in RealPlayer 10?
RM of course *). Raw ADTS (.aac) plays back without problems. MP4 wrapped AAC and HE-AAC files also play, but auto-update does not work for mp4. To get the components needed, try to open .aac file in RealPlayer. RealPlayer will auto-update with plugins for H.263 Video and 3GPP. Don't worry, this also means AAC. Also read the next question.
*) minus HE-AAC in RM, due to a bug (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=425358#post425358). Fix shortly.

When I try to open .aac or .mp4 file in RealPlayer 10, it opens the web browser to play the file, instead of running auto-update
This is caused by the .aac or .mp4 filetype being registered on your system. It is unfortunate that in order to get around this, you have to delete the filetype you are trying to open (AAC or MP4). It is easy to re-create though afterwards, with whichever is your player for this format.

AAC 5.1 playback

AAC 5.1 playback works in RealPlayer.

AAC samples

http://www.lillevold.com/files/aac_samples/

Status

RM RP10 MPC*)WMP6.4**)
rm_aac128.rm | ok | ok | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok | ok | ok, no 5.1
rm_he-aac32.rm | # | ok | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm | #1)| ok | #
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok | ok | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok | ok | ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | # | # | #
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok | ok | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok | ok | ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | ok |ok2)| #


*) Media Player Classic 6.4.7.5 w internal RealMediaSplitter
**) with RealMediaSplitter 1.0.0.8
*)and**) 3ivx MP4 Media Splitter and CoreAAC or 3ivx audio decoder.

# = no go, usually crash
1) : stuttering
2) : OK with 3ivx decoder, crashed CoreAAC

To create MP4 I used mp4creator60. I notice that mp4info shows the two HE-AAC streams as AAC LC, so maybe I did something wrong when converting...

[gabest]

aac+96_51.rm also crashes coreaac, strange. I've already emailed to Toff about it, maybe he can tell why this happens.

[S_O]

aac+96_51.rm also crashes coreaac, strange. I've already emailed to Toff about it, maybe he can tell why this happens.
I remuxed the file to mp4:
WMP 6.4 (with 3ivx Splitter / CoreAAC): crash
foobar2000 0.7.7a: crash
faad 2.0 RC3 (Jan 11 2003 build from Rarewares): crash
Nero: Trial time expired :(

Most likely a bug in FAAD2, I yust upload the mp4 and write bug-report at audiocoding.com

Thanks for your fast work to update the splitter!

Edit: Bug-report finished: http://www.audiocoding.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=4520&t=4520

[bond]

aac+160_51.aac also crashes coreaac and in_mp4 (winamp) for me
coreaac thinks its encoded using the main profile, altough it is he-aac (but as i already wrote he-aac doesnt get flagged in plain .aac files)

i guess the crashing reason is the wrongly detected main profile (well i hope real doesnt use main, could be also possible)

[SeeMoreDigital]

I can get aac+96_51.rm (ram) to play in MPC 6.4.7.4.

However, the stream is bearly audible (stammers) and the channels are not mapped correctly!

aac256_51.ram plays well, but once again the channels are not mapped correctly.

Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

I added a status summary for the AAC samples (see above), and I also included MP4 versions of the .aac files, created with mp4creator60. It is nice to see MPC play more RM files than RP 10, and also nice to see RP 10 play back MP4 files, including mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4.

Is there a DirectShow MP4 parser, such that I can get MPC to play MP4?

None of the players and filter/plugin combinations I tested play all files yet.

[satori]

I've tried to 2-pass VBR RV10 with RA10.
But Done result is alway delay video like half speed.
1-pass VBR is OK.
I used job file of "Desktop Downloadable Video.rpjf" in the sample folder of Helix producer10.
I just changed
AvgBitrate 1000000 to 500000
AvgFramerate 30 to 25 because my source is PAL.
Audio codec and flaver to raac 0(AAC 64kbps)

Please tell me what is wrong in the settings?

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
I added a status summary for the AAC samples (see above), and I also included MP4 versions of the .aac files, created with mp4creator60.this once again shows that plain .aac files without mp4 container are evil :devil:
anyone noticed that every decoder will detect he-aac-muxedfrom-.aac-to-.mp4 not as he-aac but as something else, ie lc-aac?

thats because he-aac isnt flagged as he-aac in a plain .aac stream and because of that when muxing this .aac into .mp4 how should anyone know if it is he-aac or not...

adts_he-aac64.aac | ok | ok | okmake sure that winamp also plays the sbr part of he-aac i doubt it!

adts_he-aac160_51.aac | # | # | #faads in_mp4 offers a downmix to stereo option if you dont have a multichannel system!

Is there a DirectShow MP4 parser, such that I can get MPC to play MP4?sure to my knoweldge there are 4 available atm, checkout my mp4 faq, you can find the link in my signature
3ivx is great!

[S_O]

Is there a DirectShow MP4 parser, such that I can get MPC to play MP4?
3ivx Filters: http://www.3ivx.com/download/windows.html
As audio decoder you can use their own decoder or CoreAAC. I´m not sure, but I think they also use FAAD2 for decoding, so there shouldn´t be any difference between CoreAAC / 3ivx Audio Decoder.
Menno has answered me already (link to topic see last post), he already fixed the bug (something with LFE channel and SBR) and changes are already in CVS. Unfortunately anonymous CVS seems to be updated only once a day, I cannot get the latest code I compile CoreAAC with the newest FAAD2 yet. I also tested your files with WMP 6.4 using RealMediaSplitter 1.0.0.8, 3ivx MPEG-4 Parser 4.5 or AAC Parser 1.1 with CoreAAC 1.0b8.

RM WMP 6.4
rm_aac128.rm | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok
rm_he-aac32.rm | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm | #
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | #
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | #When I´ll get the new FAAD2 code I´ll compile CoreAAC and check again, I like to see ok everywhere.

[bond]

Originally posted by S_O
3ivx Filters: http://www.3ivx.com/download/windows.html
As audio decoder you can use their own decoder or CoreAAC. I´m not sure, but I think they also use FAAD2 for decoding, so there shouldn´t be any difference between CoreAAC / 3ivx Audio Decoder.nope 3ivx doesnt use faad2, but as it is limited to 30days coreaac is the way to go for decoding aac on dshow

coreaac also offers a downmix to stereo option

[S_O]

nope 3ivx doesnt use faad2, but as it is limited to 30days coreaac is the way to go for decoding aac on dshowDo they have an own implementation or did they licence one? Does it support SBR?

FAAD2-fixes are now in CVS, after messing around with DXSDK I was finally able to compile CoreAAC, here are my test-results:
RM WMP 6.4
rm_aac128.rm | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok
rm_he-aac32.rm | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm | ok
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | ok
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | ok
I´ll send Toff a mail that he´ll release a new CoreAAC version.

[karl_lillevold]

ok. thanks! Updated:

MPC 6.4.7.5 +
RM RP10 raac Core 3ivx
rm_aac128.rm | ok | ok | ok | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok | ok | ok | ok
rm_he-aac32.rm | # | ok | ok | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm | #1)| ok | ok | ok
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok | - | ok | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok | - | ok*| ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | # | - | ok*| ok
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok | - | ok | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok | - | ok*| ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | ok | - | ok*| ok

MPC chooses decoders and splitters automatically, but can be
configured. With RP10 installed, it prefers raac.dll for RM files
(racc = Coding Technologies decoder), otherwise uses DirectShow
decoder, if available. Configure in MPC in optins, filter, over-rides,
which DS filter is preferred, if many are installed.

DirectShow parsers:
.aac : AAC Parser Filter
.mp4 : 3ivx Media Splitter

DirectShow decoders:
Core = CoreAAC 1.0b9
3ivx = 3ivx D4 4.5

# = no go, usually crash
1) : stuttering
ok*: appears to decode SBR info, but does not display AAC+SBR

-=-=-

On a side-note, 3ivx works well, but when they talk about RealPlayer niceness, at least it asks to take over filetypes. 3ivx does not, and re-mapped mp4 to WMP6.4 and took its icon. Well, at least it's easy to take back :)

Looking forward to an updated CoreAAC.

[bond]

am i getting ignored?

you both report that the he-aac .aac/.mp4 files get played back properly, but are you 100% sure that coreaac reports aac+sbr as profile?

if not it will not decode the sbr part of the file, which means the playback will be worse quality than if it would be decoded as he-aac

just because you hear the music it doesnt mean that the playback works right

[karl_lillevold]

sorry, bond. You are right, there is no SBR when using CoreAAC 1.07b as the decoder. Maybe in S_O's build it works.

[bond]

nope it will not work as there is nowhere stored in the file that it is a he-aac
hell, thats what i am trying to tell you all the time :rolleyes:

there is no he-aac flag stored in a plain .aac file (even with adts header) so if you mux this .aac file into .mp4 there is also no flag in the .mp4 file of course
you understand what i mean?

this has nothing to do with the decoder (ie coreaac, faad2 aso..)
checkout the 3ivx aac decoder (not based on faad2), which can also decode he-aac, it shows the same results

plain .aac files with he-aac are :devil:
i guess the reason why there is no sbr flag in .aac is cause he-aac was added to the mpeg-4 specs long after the adts headers were specified

[karl_lillevold]

nope it will not work as there is nowhere stored in the file that it is a he-aac
Yes, I understand that there is no HE-AAC flag in ADTS, but there must be other ways to detect the presence of the SBR information, because both RealPlayer 10 (w Coding Technologies decoder, RealNetworks parser) and the 3ivx decoder are able to play back these files correctly. This includes both .aac and .mp4, even though the flag is missing in the MP4 files, because they were converted from .aac files without this flag.

[S_O]

ok, no 5.1
There is an option "Downmix to 2 channels" which is enabled by default. To have multichannel output you have to disable it. It would be great if there would be more downmix-options, like in AC3Filter, I´ll ask Toff about that.

On a side-note, 3ivx works well, but when they talk about RealPlayer niceness, at least it asks to take over filetypes. 3ivx does not, and re-mapped mp4 to WMP6.4 and took its icon. Well, at least it's easy to take back
I don´t know if it was RealPlayers fault, but I installed - deinstalled it (RealOne V2) and after that I couldn´t play mp3, mpg etc. anymore. The icons, descriptions etc. were normal like always, but it wouldn´t open. I had to delete all the entries manually in the registry and re-register the filetypes until I could play them again normally.
you both report that the he-aac .aac/.mp4 files get played back properly, but are you 100% sure that coreaac reports aac+sbr as profile?Unfortunately my CoreAAC compile is messed up, the display doesn´t work (only see strange symbols instead of text).
there is no he-aac flag stored in a plain .aac file (even with adts header) so if you mux this .aac file into .mp4 there is also no flag in the .mp4 file of courseI don´t know why, but ADTS files are fine with SBR: I wrote an wav-file and looked at the spectral display with CoolEdit: the file is 44100Hz and contains frequences up to 20kHz. Maybe AAC-Parser can scan the file for SBR.
If you have an ADTS file with SBR, which is not detected there is way to remux it to mp4:
Mux it into matroska and set the SBR flag manually in mkvmerge, then you can remux it to mp4 using GraphEdit.
i guess the reason why there is no sbr flag in .aac is cause he-aac was added to the mpeg-4 specs long after the adts headers were specifiedThey could change the header because of the emphasis flag when SBR was already out, why couldn´t they change the header because of SBR?
Edit: Spelling fix

[bond]

hm funny yes 3ivx seems to be able to detect if it is he-aac or not

but only after i push play, after only connecting it displays "main" profile (same as coreaac) tough i never played a main aac file and after pushing play it changes to he-aac (what coreaac doesnt do, it "continues thinking" its a main aac)

seems to be a good workaround from 3ivx cause it was always said that the plain .aac files doesnt have a sbr flag
that is the reason why he-aac doesnt work in ogm and thats why the user has to manually tick an "aac = he-aac" option when muxing plain .aac files into matroska

maybe 3ivx (and real?) found a workaround, which is only possible after playing a part of the file or so?

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've tested a few more files with RealMediaSplitter (v1.0.0.8) installed.

Using MPC, WMP9 or the Nero ShowTime: -
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 - all crash

Using MPC, WMP9: -
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 - perfect
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - stammers

Using Nero ShowTime: -
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 - perfect
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - crashes

RealPlayer10 beta: -
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - stammers

Using my Sigma Xcard/JovePlayer: -
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - perfect (except the Xcard only outputs L and R Channels)
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 - Perfect

It's a little odd that rm_he-aac96_51.ram can play ok using my Sigma Xcard/JovePlayer don't you think?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that my Xcard can't play rm_aac256_51.ram. Strange eh!

Cheers

[S_O]

seems to be good stuff cause it was always said that the plain .aac files doesnt have a sbr flagThe ADTS header does not contain a SBR flag. 100% sure.
maybe 3ivx (and real?) found a workaround, which is only possible after playing a part of the file or so?
Yes, after you have decoded the first frame you know if it´s SBR ot not. Unfortunately the DirectShow-Graph is already build when the first frame is decoded. There is a way of changeing the samplerate afterwards, but Toff don´t know exactly how to do that - and the renderer need to support that. If CoreAAC detects SBR in a file that´s not marked as SBR it resamples the 44100Hz audio down to 22050Hz (like indicated in the header).

[karl_lillevold]

@bond: maybe 3ivx (and real?) found a workaround, which is only possible after playing a part of the file or so?
Yes, when talking to my audio codec colleague about the problems with raw AAC files, I remember we discussed how the CT decoder for un-flagged HE-AAC files would return twice the number of samples as expected, so clearly it detects HE-AAC after it has started decoding. This caused some head-aches for our renderer/parser implementation.

[bond]

hm interesting topic

lets hope that toff finds a way to fix that, cause otherwise these plain .aac could cause more harm than good with people who dont know about these sbr detection issues

better would be to suggest people to use the .ra container and mux from it (as it seems to have such a flag - works with coreaac)
or even more better would be to add support for ripping directly into .mp4 :D
nothing against reals container karl ;)

[karl_lillevold]

yes, it has been interesting. Latest status edited, re-formatted to take into account which AAC decoder is being used. I now have one column of all OKs, using the 3ivx decoder. I may move this to the first post in the FAQ section now.

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
I now have one column of all OKs, using the 3ivx decoder.did you also test he-aac .aac files in winamp5?
it has its own aac decoder (not using the in_mp4 of faad2)

[[Toff]]

Menno has fixed the bug this afternoon.
I've sent a new build (1.0b9) at the usual place.

About more downmix option, my opinion is why implement a downmix solution in every decoder whereas there is already good filters to do that like MatrixMixer or ChannelDownmixer.

About the HE-AAC detection issue in .aac file, yes it's possible to change the samplerate dynamically but all filters after the decoder need to support this feature which is not the case so I have not investigated this solution.

[karl_lillevold]

@[Toff] - re CoreAAC 1.09: Great! the CoreAAC column is now all ok as well. The HE-AAC .aac and .mp4 clips show as "AAC Main", but play back at 44100, previously played at 22050, so the SBR info appears to be decoded correctly.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've downloaded CoreAAC 1.09, from the usual place.

However, once installed the product version info still says it's CoreAAC 1.08b. And lists the build date as being Oct 24, 2003.

Yours confused.... SMD

[hartiberlin]

Hi,
I have looked into the new demo clips on the new Real10 site,
but so far I could only find bad encoded DVD Trailers...

Where are the real exiting HDTV Clips encoded in Real10 ????

As WMV9 produces great quality with 1280x720p encoding, I want to compare my encoded WMV9 clips to Real10 encoded HDTV clips...

Please post a few links of Real10 encoded HDTV clips.
Thanks !

Regards, Stefan.

[bond]

hartiberlin
welcome to doom9 first of all :)

you cant compare two clips encoded from different sources anyways. you would have to get an uncompressed hdtv source and then compress it two times, one time with wmv9 and one time with rv
well lets say three times as you should try mpeg-4 too

[SeeMoreDigital]

This is most true!

If you are interested in HD encodes and/or have any suggestions you wish to share, please take a look the following link: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68292

And yes, fancy not mentioning Mpeg4!

Cheers hartiberlin and welcome to the forum

[hartiberlin]

Originally posted by bond
hartiberlin
welcome to doom9 first of all :)

you cant compare two clips encoded from different sources anyways. you would have to get an uncompressed hdtv source and then compress it two times, one time with wmv9 and one time with rv
well lets say three times as you should try mpeg-4 too

Hi , I am using the high quality MPEG-2 Clips which are available via the web to compare the encoding in WMV9 so far..
I am just looking to the ROB Glaser CES Keynote.
Where is the Spaceshuttle RealVideo HDTV clip ?
Where can it be downloaded from ?

Thanks !

Regards, Stefan.

[hartiberlin]

that it still can´t REPLAY a clip !
If you want to watch the same *.RM clip
10 times you always have to restart it manually !
That really sucks especially with short clips..!

Regards, Stefan

[karl_lillevold]

available RV10 demos
I wrote in my first post in this thread : "The showcase clips were encoded off a tape dubbed from composite source, with terrible dot crawl. What can we do when that's what the studios send us. Urgh! It will be re-encoded after CES and when we have received digi-beta tapes."

HD demos
The problem with HD content is obtaining rights to make available demos for download. Microsoft does not have this problem, simply because they several studios producing HD content themselves..

player repeat
check the player menus: Play -> Continuous play

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
available RV10 demos
I wrote in my first post in this thread : "The showcase clips were encoded off a tape dubbed from composite source, with terrible dot crawl. What can we do when that's what the studios send us. Urgh! It will be re-encoded after CES and when we have received digi-beta tapes." I'm curious!

What equipment/method are you using to transfer your Digi-Beta 'taped' streams to your PC's for Real10 encoding?

Cheers

[hartiberlin]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
available RV10 demos
I wrote in my first post in this thread : "The showcase clips were encoded off a tape dubbed from composite source, with terrible dot crawl. What can we do when that's what the studios send us. Urgh! It will be re-encoded after CES and when we have received digi-beta tapes."


Well, then just delete this crap from your webserver !
This is just a so bad source that I would have never touched it !
This is even doing your Real10 demo more bad than good !


Originally posted by karl_lillevold

HD demos
The problem with HD content is obtaining rights to make available demos for download. Microsoft does not have this problem, simply because they several studios producing HD content themselves..


Come on...you even make so much money with all your
Premium content sales, that the company REAL can not even
buy themself a new HD Camcorder and record some own footage ?
You don´t need to encode movies from Hollywood, just tape
Rob Glaser on the CES when he tries to speak "200 beats per minutes..."
(Incredible how fast he holds his speeches...is he constantly on drugs ???? ;) )



player repeat
check the player menus: Play -> Continuous play [/B]

Thanks for the tip...
Why just don´t you call it "Replay".... ????

[hartiberlin]

Even Rolf Dieter Klein can afford a JVC HDTV Camcorder.
You can download his HDTV clips here:

www.computertrend.tv

Regards, Stefan.

[karl_lillevold]

@hartiberlin: Re: buy HD camcorder: good idea. I think we should too.

@SeeMoreDigital: Re: Capture from digi-beta: I think an Osprey capture card from Viewcast, with SDI input. Captured in Premiere, exported to AVI, then encoded with Producer. It's a rather cumbersome process.

[karl_lillevold]

@satori
Originally posted by satori
I've tried to 2-pass VBR RV10 with RA10.
But Done result is alway delay video like half speed.
1-pass VBR is OK.
I used job file of "Desktop Downloadable Video.rpjf" in the sample folder of Helix producer10.
I just changed
AvgBitrate 1000000 to 500000
AvgFramerate 30 to 25 because my source is PAL.
Audio codec and flaver to raac 0(AAC 64kbps)

Please tell me what is wrong in the settings?


Source is PAL VCD conver .dat to .mpg
here is avisynth script

DirectShowSource("D:\vodeo\Loso - Khuen Can.mpg")
Trim(130,-500)
crop(0,4,-0,-4)
lanczosresize(320,240)
Thanks for the extra information. I am reasonably sure the problem is the Avisynth DirectShowSource use. I am not sure how stable this is for audio yet, which this particular problem seems to relate to. It also depends on which DirectShow filters handle MPEG decoding of audio and video on your system.

I would suggest you open your script in VirtualDub, choose Direct Stream copy, set in and out points to save a few hundred frames in an AVI file. Does this AVI file play back correctly? Does this AVI file encode correctly?

The most stable method appears to be to open the .mpg file in DVD2AVI, and "Save Project". Then you get a .d2v file you can use MPEG2Source in an AviSynth script, and uncompressed audio, which you combine with the video with AudioDub. This is what most of the automatic GUIs do for you, for instance AutoRV9. You should try this.

[hartiberlin]

Hi,
can the Real10 Encoder also encode directly from
720p or 1080i MPEG-2 streams ?
Also from Transport streams or just system streams ?

If yes, how is the sound handled ?
Will it be possible to encode the sound with it in one go ?
Thanks !

P.S: WM Encoder can encode directly from MPEG-2 streams !
;)

[karl_lillevold]

Yes, you can encode any format you can play via DirectShow, including MPEG2-HD and WMV-HD, since Producer uses DirectShow to read its input. Please read the first post in the sticky thread RealVideo Information thread, section "Supported input formats to producer". Thanks.

[C0mPr355]

Im having trouble getting any PSNR readings to function correctly when doing PSNR for rv10. Perhaps I have missed something out of the blue that appeared recently to fix this. The main thing is that when I run the AVS script through either VD or mpclassic (or even graphedit) the movie plays through fine but at the end it hangs and does not close out the session. When viewing the PSNR data it definately appears to be messed up. A lot of areas that show 26s or lower pop up and I know that this is not possible (since the usual low is around 37-38 for these clips with VP6 and I know they are close to reals). Anyways, has this happened to anyone recently? Sagittaire maybe ?

here is my avs script for outputting yuv PSNR:

# --> Video Opening <--

video=DirectShowSource("f:\320x176.rmvb",23.976)
#video=AviSource("c:\")
video=ConvertToYUY2(video)
source=AviSource("f:\skyshort-320x176.avi")
source=ConvertToYUY2(source)



# --> PSNR analysis <--
return Compare(video,source,"YUV","f:\320x176.txt")

[slavickas]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Yes, you can encode any format you can play via DirectShow, including MPEG2-HD and WMV-HD, since Producer uses DirectShow to read its input. Please read the first post in the sticky thread RealVideo Information thread, section "Supported input formats to producer". Thanks.

I was unable to transcode mpeg2 svcd on freshly installed winxp + nero 6 ultra edition, although players could play that file

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by slavickas
I was unable to transcode mpeg2 svcd on freshly installed winxp + nero 6 ultra edition, although players could play that file Well if you do not have a mpeg2 directshow filter installed, you won't be able to transcode. You just can't intall say WinDVD or PowerDVD and expect to transcode. Nero 6 probably lets you encode to mepg2, but not play it back, nor install a direct show filter. Google for Elcard Moonlight, they make what you want. It costs $30 though, AFAIK. There is a free 30 day demo though I think, it places there logo in the upper right corner (stationary), but after the trial period it jumps all over the picture.

EDIT: You'll also need to install and setup AC3Filter to get audio. You can google for that too.

Otherwise, just use dvd2avi and make an .avs to feed into Producer. It's more work, but its free with no stationary or jumping logos and you can put in your own filter, if you want.

[karl_lillevold]

@slavickas: Yes, I am afraid many DirectShow filters are not expecting to be used for anything but playback, and many MPEG-2 dshow filters do not work when used as input for Producer, although some do. There may be audio skips, break-ups, video might open in separate window etc etc. I will add this to the Info thread.

@C0mPr355: Sagittaire would know how to do this. I have seen the same problem too. I think you have to skip 1 frame to begin with in the source, to match up the frames, and 1 at the end to prevent the lockup. Use Trim. However, I have not had this problem with the latest Avisynth 2.53 and RealMediaSplitter at all, so first I would upgrade both of those.

[hartiberlin]

Hi,
will there also be some standalone Players,
that can play RealVideo 10 in normal
or HD resolution ?

If there will be no standalone player hardware,
I will stay with WMV, cause there will be soon
a few DVD player with Windows Media Video 9 support and
also WMVHD support.

Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

[hartiberlin]

How is this streaming media Hardware
player called, that Rob Glaser showed in the CES 2004
keynote ?

Can that play also HD content encoded in RV10
on a big screen or projektor ?
What is the maximum resolution it will play in RV 10 ?

Where can more infos be found on this hardware player ?
What other formats can it play ?
Also WMV and MPEG2 and DIVX ?

Regards, Stefan.

[bond]

Originally posted by hartiberlin
If there will be no standalone player hardware,
I will stay with WMV, cause there will be soon
a few DVD player with Windows Media Video 9 support and
also WMVHD support.so you did already test hd wmv9 vs hd mpeg-4 vs hd rv10 content?
cause hd mpeg-4 hardware decoders will come soon too ;)

[hartiberlin]

XVid HD standalone player would also be fine !

[wata]

Originally posted by hartiberlin
How is this streaming media Hardware
player called, that Rob Glaser showed in the CES 2004
keynote ?

Can that play also HD content encoded in RV10
on a big screen or projektor ?
What is the maximum resolution it will play in RV 10 ?

Where can more infos be found on this hardware player ?
What other formats can it play ?
Also WMV and MPEG2 and DIVX ?

Regards, Stefan.

i use xbox and graphic card video-out to play realmedia contents

[Sirber]

Why is HE-AAC listed as "Stereo Music" instead of "Surround"? Does HE-AAC supports 48kHz? Does HE-AAC keep surround informations?

[iwod]

Oh.. has anybody test the new EHQ 100? Because the what used to be EHQ High in Rv9 is now only something like Medium in Rv10. And 85 is high for Rv10 and there is a 100 as well. Just wanted to know if that has improve anything as well.........

[karl_lillevold]

@Sirber: Why is HE-AAC listed as "Stereo Music" instead of "Surround"? Does HE-AAC keep surround informations?
Stereo ~= Surround. it's just a matter of tuning to maintain the out-of-phase surround information. Some the the low bitrate 'cook' flavors were tuned for Surround, thus the need to separate Surround and Stereo. The HE-AAC flavors have not been tuned for either, and will work for both stereo and surround, but I have no experience with their ability to preserve the surround out-of-phase information.

HE-AAC at 48kHz:
not yet, but I intend to file an enhancement request.

@iwod: complexity levels:
RV10@high is the same as RV9-EHQ@85. RV9@high is the same as RV9@65. RV10@100 is not really much use, but is a tiny improvement over @high(85). My goal is to improve it even further, but I have not had time yet.

[Sirber]

HE-AAC keeps surround information, as I can see in Matrix Muxer :D

[jcsston]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Re Matroska file-writer for Producer

It would be fantastic if someone wrote a Matroska file-writer plugin for Producer. I am pretty sure we would then distribute this file-writer with Milestone builds of Helix Producer 10.
Here the first public release of such a plugin.
helix-mkvwriter-v0.0.2 (http://corecodec.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=15&release_id=122)
I have tested it with AAC audio, RealVideo 10, cook audio, and sipr audio. (I couldn't get producer to encode any HE-AAC)

Of course being able to mux RealVideo and RealAudio into Matroska with this plugin is just a coincidence ;)

[zedude]

jcsston , nice plugin :)
it works perfectly, and with racp as well ;)
unfortunatly, as language for streams is english(default) one can not edit this info with matroskaprop, i'm quite sure you can fix it :D thanks !

[Sirber]

GREAT!!! :D :D :D

Gonna be easier for GUIs (mine of course! mouhahahahaha)

[TFC]

For sure that sounds really nice! :D
Long time not being on the way and happy to see all those improvements, nice nice nice !!!!

Keep up the good the vibes all, and allways the smile! ;)

C ya

TFC

PS: @sirber >> Hey man bouge toi les fesses un peu elle est pas finie cette gui encore ??!! :p :cool:

[Sirber]

Hey man, move your ass your GUI isn't finished yetHum.... I'm fulltime now at webernic. I don't have much freetime for my projects :(

[TFC]

I understand for sure ;) and that's normal personnal things before the rest ;)

Keep up the good job!

TFC

[hellfred]

Hi
I wanted to enjoy homegrown rm-files with HE AAC audio tracks.
Producer made them, MPC can play them (as long as RealPlayer10 is not installed and uses CoreAAC), only RealPlayer10 fails.
I have installed the beta using the link given in this forum, have manually updated 3GPP PlugIn and H.263 Video Plug-in Support and wanted to open the rm file containing the HE AAC source. I get an note that RealPlayer needs to download some software but then tells me that "There is no software update available from Real to support this content" for the content racp.
Coppying racp.dll form the sdk-addon to common files real codecs crashes realplayer when i try to play the HE AAC content.
Any suggestions how to solve this?

Win98 on PIII

Hellfred

P.S. How to get HE AAC in rm container back working on MPC? I know i have to do some view -> options -> filters -> overrides tweaks.
But what to do exactly?
I do Add -> CoreAAC and put the radio-button to Prefere.
In the lower part there is an section MEDIATYPE_Audio added automatically containing two SubTypes:
{000000FF-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71} and
{4134504D-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}

Do i have to add other subtibes, the MEDIATYPE_Video with the same two SubTypes, or do I have to Block some other filters?

[karl_lillevold]

Hello hellfred, Like I wrote in the FAQ in the first post, RP10 can not currently play back HE-AAC in RM due to a bug. In fact, two bugs: 1) raac.dll will crash, 2) the renderer plugin does not recognize racp. Neither of these bugs affect how MPC plays back AAC or HE-AAC, even when it uses raac.

As opposed to the encoder, racp.dll should not be copied to the player's folder, since raac.dll can decode both AAC (raac) and HE-AAC (racp). If it had not been for bug 1), if you had hex-edited to file to FourCC raac, it would have played fine. raac can mean both AAC and HE-AAC. racp means HE-AAC. MPC plays back both raac and racp.

However, also MPC has a bug playing back HE-AAC, which shows up when combined with video (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=431463#post431463).

I will clarify the FAQ.

[hellfred]

Thanks for the reply
Looks like the update of my first note came too late.
Meanwhile i got that it is up to now not possible to play the HE_AAC rm files unless you tune them using the hex-editor so that they are recognized as normal (=LC?) AAC streams.
Can you give me some tips for the override in MPC?
Though i thought i made it clear to use CoreAAC, MPC crashes with an access violation in raac or after removing racp.dll, i get RealMedia error. Till i installed RealPlayer10 i was able to play HE-AAC back with MPC.

Hellfred
Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Hello hellfred, Like I wrote in the FAQ in the first post, RP10 can not currently play back HE-AAC in RM due to a bug. In fact, two bugs: 1) raac.dll will crash, 2) the renderer plugin does not recognize racp.

As opposed to the encoder, racp.dll should not be copied to the player's folder, since raac.dll can decode both AAC (raac) and HE-AAC (racp). If it had not been for bug 1), if you had hex-edited to file to FourCC raac, it wold have played fine. raac can mean both AAC and HE-AAC. racp means HE-AAC.

In fact, also MPC has a bug playing back HE-AAC, which shows up when [url=http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=431463#post431463]combined with video[/video].

I will clarify the FAQ, because it is not very clear.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by jcsston
I have tested it with AAC audio, RealVideo 10, cook audio, and sipr audio. (I couldn't get producer to encode any HE-AAC)

Awesome! It works very well, even with HE-AAC, after you get the fixed audio codec wrapper, referred to in my FAQ in the first post ("Is it possible to encode HE-AAC in Helix Producer 10?"). See this example (http://www.lillevold.com/files/a_racp_mkvwriter.mkv).

The only feature I kind of miss, is how the RM writer does not over-write existing files with the same name, but archives them as filename_archnnn.rmvb... Not really that important though, just something I have gotten used to, and nice for experimenting with many encodes.

MKV without using job file
One nice feature in Producer I just learned is that a job file is not necessary to select this plugin. Just use extension .mkv for the output filename, and Producer will auto-select the mkvwriter!

producer -i input.avi -o output.mkv -ad test.rpad -lc e,d

It even encodes SureStream, but no known player can play back SureStream MKV files, which BTW are not very useful, since SureStream is useful only for streaming.

Hmm, i just noticed that with my non-jobfile test above, a backup output.mkv_arch001 is created, so I am not sure where this feature lives or exactly how it is triggered.

[karl_lillevold]

@hellfred: 1) it sounds like MPC switched to RealMedia mode. Make sure it is in DirectShow mode for Real Media files. You know, the somewhat-hard-to-find pulldown menu at the end of each line in the "formats" menu. 2) in the over-rides section, add CoreAAC and check "prefer" for it to be selected first. Note that this is not really necessary, since the bug in raac is triggered only in RP10 and RealMedia mode ...

[gabest]

In the next version of MPC I'm going to change the rm/rmvb/ram/... handler to directshow and only use the native api when opening a url and the mime type is among the known realmedia types.

[hellfred]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
[B]@hellfred: 1) it sounds like MPC switched to RealMedia mode. Make sure it is in DirectShow mode for Real Media files. You know, the somewhat-hard-to-find pulldown menu at the end of each line in the "formats" menu.
I have to confess, without your hint i would never have found that pulldown menu. Fascinating, how good this control elements can be hidden these days. :D
Now it is working. Thanks and sorry for troubeling you.

Hellfred

[satori]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
MKV without using job file
One nice feature in Producer I just learned is that a job file is not necessary to select this plugin. Just use extension .mkv for the output filename, and Producer will auto-select the mkvwriter!

producer -i input.avi -o output.mkv -ad test.rpad -lc e,d

[/B]

I've just tried this method for audio files.I used foobar2000 and CLI diskwriter components.It make Real container.(I've tried both .mka and .mkv extentions)
I've also tried without fb2k,It also make real conteiner.But I encode with job file,it make matroska:confused:

[jcsston]

Originally posted by zedude
jcsston , nice plugin :)
it works perfectly, and with racp as well ;)
unfortunatly, as language for streams is english(default) one can not edit this info with matroskaprop, i'm quite sure you can fix it :D thanks !
This updated version writes a default value for "eng" for the track language so you can change it. I am currently working on a way to set Matroska muxing setting from the .rpjf job file.
This is an example of what will work so far.

<destination xsi:type="fileDestination">
<filename type="string">I:\home_video_test.mkv</filename>
<name type="string">home_video_test</name>
<pluginName type="string">rn-file-mkv</pluginName>
<!-- Custom setting just for the mkvwriter -->
<matroskaSettings type="bag">
<!-- Global Tag -->
<matroskaTag type="string">GENERATED_BY=Helix DNA(TM) Producer 10.0 for Windows, Build 10.0.0.74</matroskaTag>
</matroskaSettings>
</destination>

Hmm, i just noticed that with my non-jobfile test above, a backup output.mkv_arch001 is created, so I am not sure where this feature lives or exactly how it is triggered.
I have noticed that too, so I'm not sure what or if anything I need to do in the plugin to have it backup/archive instead of overwriting.

Edit: Almost forgot the link mkvwriter-v0.0.3 (http://corecodec.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=15&release_id=124)

[karl_lillevold]

@gabest : great news re dshow vs realmedia options. I have explained it so many times by now.. I am sure you have too :)

@satori : This 'wfm' = works for me. First I made sure audio only to mka worked on the command line, then I set up the CLI encoder in foobar2000 like this (mkvwriter may not support any of the clipinfo fields you could have placed metadata tags in):

http://www.lillevold.com/files/png/fb2000.png

with my audio.rpad like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">128000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">128000</maxBitrate>
<streams>
<audioStream>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-realaudio</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">raac</codecName>
<codecFlavor type="uint">2</codecFlavor>
<streamContext type="bag">
<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
</streamContext>
</audioStream>
</streams>
</audience>

Did you set the extension in the ext field? Are you sure you are calling Producer 10?

[satori]

karl_lillevold:

Thank you very much for your tutorial.Now I replaced every tools are latest.It is work now.
But another problem is mka input plugin of foobar2000 does not play this .mka files.It can play mpc or another directshow players.

[hellfred]

@jcsston: I am just curiouse. Will you add vorbis as possible audio codec for your Matroska output plugin. (mkv and mka?)
I do am content with having HE AAC as audio codec (:D), but up to now i was little bit sad that, though producer supports the nice and open audio codec vorbis, it can only be used for audio-only encodes. :(
I thought that might be a problem with the container rm because of unsolved problems muxing rv40 video and vorbis audio.
So i hoped to avoid this trouble by using your output-plugin.
But it does not work.
Do you planed to add vorbis, is there a limitation in producer that prefents the use of vorbis together with video or did i just make a mistake?

VideoVorbis.rpjf:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<job xmlns="http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0"
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:schemaLocation="http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0 http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0.xsd">
<disableLoadManagement type="bool">false</disableLoadManagement>
<enableTwoPass type="bool">true</enableTwoPass>
<clipInfo>
<entry>
<name>Allow Recording</name>
<value type="bool">true</value>
</entry>
<entry>
<name>Generated By</name>
<value type="string">Helix DNA(TM) Producer 10.0 for Windows, Build 10.0.0.74</value>
</entry>
</clipInfo>
<input xsi:type="avFileInput">
<filename type="string">RahXephon.avi</filename>
<name type="string">home_video_test</name>
</input>
<parOutputs>
<output>
<destinations>
<destination xsi:type="fileDestination">
<filename type="string">RahXephon_vorbis.mkv</filename>
<name type="string">home_video_test</name>
<pluginName type="string">rn-file-mkv</pluginName>
</destination>
</destinations>
<mediaProfile>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<disableAudio type="bool">false</disableAudio>
<disableVideo type="bool">false</disableVideo>
<outputHeight type="uint">0</outputHeight>
<outputWidth type="uint">0</outputWidth>
<resizeQuality type="string">high</resizeQuality>
<videoMode type="string">normal</videoMode>
<audienceRefs>
<audienceRef>VorbisTest</audienceRef>
</audienceRefs>
</mediaProfile>
</output>
</parOutputs>
<audiences>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">450000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">1500000</maxBitrate>
<name type="string">VorbisTest</name>
<streams>
<stream xsi:type="videoStream">
<codecName type="string">rv10</codecName>
<enableLossProtection type="bool">false</enableLossProtection>
<encodingComplexity type="string">high</encodingComplexity>
<encodingType type="string">vbrBitrate</encodingType>
<maxFrameRate type="double">30.000000</maxFrameRate>
<maxKeyFrameInterval type="double">10.000000</maxKeyFrameInterval>
<maxStartupLatency type="double">60.000000</maxStartupLatency>
<pluginName type="string">rn-videocodec-realvideo</pluginName>
<quality type="uint">30</quality>
</stream>
<stream xsi:type="audioStream">
<codecFlavor type="uint">7</codecFlavor>
<codecName type="string">vorbis</codecName>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-vorbis</pluginName>
<streamContext type="bag">
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<presentationType type="string">audio-video</presentationType>
</streamContext>
</stream>
<stream xsi:type="audioStream">
<codecFlavor type="uint">7</codecFlavor>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-vorbis</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">vorbis</codecName>
<streamContext type="bag">
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>
</streamContext>
</stream>
</streams>
</audience>
</audiences>
</job>

producer.exe -j VideoVorbis.rpjf -lc "e,i,w,d" >out.txt

...

Diagnostic: Using VorbisTest Audience
Diagnostic: Using video codec: rv10 (322000 bps)
Warning: Unrecognized property analysisFile provided to the Vorbis Codec.
Diagnostic: Using audio codec: vorbis (128000 bps)
Info: Starting encoding pass
Diagnostic: Setting video packet size to 1352
Error: Invalid codec specified for the mkv file writer.
Info: Total | Audio | Video | Avg | Min | Avg |
Min | Pre- |Audience Name
Info: kbps | kbps | kbps | FPS | FPS | QI |
QI | roll |
Info: Total Bitrate = 0 kbps
Error: Encoding failed!
Done Errors: 2 Warnings: 2

[karl_lillevold]

Using Producer to rip to iPod compatible M4A

Using Producer like satori first suggested in foobar, reminded me how I set up EAC to rip to AAC encoded with Nero... So with the latest mkvtoolnix and mp4creator60, it is now possible to set up foobar or EAC to rip to iPod compatible M4A using RealProducer 10 with RA10-AAC (Coding Technologies AAC). All you have to do is to set the CLI encoder up like this:

encoder: c:\windows\system32\cmd.exe
extension: m4a
parameters: /c d:\misc\producer_10\producer.exe -i %s -o %d.mka -ad c:\audio.rpad -dv && mkvextract tracks %d.mka 1:%d.aac && mp4creator60 -aac-profile=4 -optimize -create=%d.aac %d
(no line-breaks, add/edit full paths for each tool if they are not in your $PATH)

For this to work, you need jcsston's mkvwriter in Producer's tools directory. Without mkvwriter, one additional step from RM to MKA is needed.

You may also want to tag on at the end of the long line above:
&& tg.exe %d --artist "%a" --album "%g" --track "%n" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year %y
if you would like tags in your M4A file..


for 192 kbps AAC, use audio.rpad like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">192000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">192000</maxBitrate>
<streams>
<audioStream>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-realaudio</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">raac</codecName>
<codecFlavor type="uint">4</codecFlavor>
<streamContext type="bag">
<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
</streamContext>
</audioStream>
</streams>
</audience>

[satori]

@karl_lillevold
In this process.It made .mka .aac and.m4a files.
aac file shows AAC+SBR in foobar2000.But .m4a shows only AAC.
(I never checked by iTunes since I just uninstalled)
When AAC wrapped in mpeg4 container was SBR header losted?

[karl_lillevold]

re SBR info lost: Yes, the raw ADTS .AAC format does not have a flag to store whether or not there is SBR information in a stream. This is a well known problem, and most AAC decoders (CT, Core, 3ivx) handle this by decoding the first frame to figure it out. In some cases the wrong information will be shown (Core), but still decoded correctly. 3ivx on the other hand displays HE-AAC in any case.

[bond]

well sbr/he-aac in .aac should be whereever possible avoided

only because some (not all) decoders support a workaround for these crappy files, some people might already call mka/mp4/m4a files with he-aac/sbr but without the needed flag borked...


but i guess it would solve the problem if jcsston could add support for adding this flag to .mka already via commandline (as for example mkvmerge and avi-mux gui already offer)!

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by bond
but i guess it would solve the problem if jcsston could add support for adding this flag to .mka already via commandline (as for example mkvmerge and avi-mux gui already offer)!
That flag already exists. The problem is the process above goes via aac to get to mp4. If there was a way to get directly from mka to mp4, without stopping by .aac, there would not be a problem. Perhaps such a method exists.?

[bond]

ah ic (stupid me :D )

but no, afaik no mp4 muxer supports flagging he-aac when muxing to mp4 :angry:

[S_O]

That flag already exists. The problem is the process above goes via aac to get to mp4. If there was a way to get directly from mka to mp4, without stopping by .aac, there would not be a problem. Perhaps such a method exists.?
What about GraphEdit?
he_aac_file.mka -> Matroska Splitter -> 3ivx Muxer -> he_aac_file.mp4
If the flag is set in the mka, it should be set in the mp4, too.

[karl_lillevold]

Re Graphedit w 3ivx MP4 muxer: In theory, yes. In practice, no, at least not on my system (latest versions of all filters). Resulting file plays twice the speed, and is full of noise. Also, for the command chain above, everything needed to be on the command line, to be able to run in CLI encoders (EAC, foobar2000).

[S_O]

In theory, yes. In practice, no, at least not on my system (latest versions of all filters). Resulting file plays twice the speed, and is full of noise. Also, for the command chain above, everything needed to be on the command line, to be able to run in CLI encoders (EAC, foobar2000).Unfortunately you´re right :( I have exactly the same problem. But since he_aac.rm -> RealMedia Splitter -> 3ivx Muxer -> he_aac.mp4 works fine, the problem is most likely in matroska splitter.

[hartiberlin]

Where can I download a well done RV10 encoded
HDTV movie clip ?

I want to compare there against some WMV9 clips.
Thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

[bond]

hartiberlin,
didnt we already discuss how to correctly compare rv9/10 vs wmv9 vs mpeg-4 hdtv clips?
or was this with somone else?

[kamiller42]

This is probably a dumb list of questions, but I am not knowledgable of the all specs between the compression technologies.

Is AAC better than RA8 for saving CD tracks? I get the impression it is. If so, what AAC compression level in RealPlayer 10 should I use to save CD tracks?

How does RV10 compare to DivX 5.1.1? Given the same source video file, do they compress to comparable size files? Does one format have advantage over another in regards to editing or streaming?

[Sirber]

Hi

AAC range is from 64 to 320kbps, RA8 (cook) is from 16 to 96kbps. AAC is surely better than cook for CD ripping, since you can choose 192kbps.

About RV10 vs DivX, it's all about taste. I encode mostly animes, and with RV10 I can get 60% smaller files without big quality loss.

[bond]

Originally posted by Sirber
AAC range is from 64 to 320kbps, RA8 (cook) is from 16 to 96kbps.he-aac is also great for bitrates lower than 64kbps, in fact it was voted to bring much better quality on 64kbps than ra and wma

AAC is surely better than cook for CD ripping, since you can choose 192kbps.good aac codecs (like apples or nero) already bring as good as transparent quality at 128kbps
dunno about the quality real's aac codec brings...

[SeeMoreDigital]

'Tiss true

Hey Sirber if you want to hear some comparisons of 2Ch HE and LC AAC encodes at low bitrates please check out Area 51 of my web site!

I will be adding Mp3pro, WMV9 and maybe some RA9/10 audio soon.

Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by bond
good aac codecs (like apples or nero) already bring as good as transparent quality at 128kbps. dunno about the quality real's aac codec brings...
We did not write our own AAC encoder. It is licensed from Coding Technologies (CT). Quality wise, it should be in the best company. I do not know the details of the various implementations, but it is my understanding Dolby, FhG, Apple, and CT share a large part of the LC AAC baseline implementations, but have each done their own individual listening based tuning.

CT invented "Plus" (HE), and the HE part of the AAC codec we license was implemented exclusively by CT, and should be the highest possible quality. CT's extensive audio experience is highly regarded. It would be interesting to have a listening test compare the LC AAC part of these codecs though, to see if the individual tuning has made a difference. It would also be nice to have the HE part compared, I think only CT and Nero have so far implemented HE...

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
It would be interesting to have a listening test compare the LC AAC part of these codecs though, to see if the individual tuning has made a difference.yep there are differences
check out rjamorims public listening tests:
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/aac128test/results.html

especially sorenson (fhg) vs. apple (dolby), nero is completely self made afaik

It would also be nice to have the HE part compared, I think only CT and Nero have so far implemented HE...Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Hey Sirber if you want to hear some comparisons of 2Ch HE and LC AAC encodes at low bitrates please check out Area 51 of my web site!
I will be adding Mp3pro, WMV9 and maybe some RA9/10 audio soon.low bitrate compares are also availble on rjamorims site:
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html

btw there is now a listening test about mp3 at 128kbps running, would be great if you guys join it :)
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/mp3-128/presentation.html

the more people participate the better the results!

[karl_lillevold]

Re: rjamorims public listening tests: I know about those, and have taken part in most of them (well, at least one clip each). The Coding Technologies AAC codec has not been included in any of them yet, and the 64 kbps test includes only Nero-HE, even though HE was invented by CT. Perhaps as more "HE" implementations become available, there will be a separate HE test.

[bond]

rjamorim already has plans for a new aac test

but now the important test is mp3 at 128kbps ;)

[kamiller42]

Originally posted by Sirber
AAC range is from 64 to 320kbps, RA8 (cook) is from 16 to 96kbps. AAC is surely better than cook for CD ripping, since you can choose 192kbps.

This was what I thought based on a previously published table showing the different levels of quality. However, it's confusing given the following quotes:

"RealAudio 10 incorporates the standards-based and widely used MPEG-4 AAC codec at bitrates over 128 kbps."

"RealAudio 10 incorporates the RealAudio codec for bitrates less than 128 kbps and is renowned for delivering near CD audio quality at 64 kbps."

Source: https://www.helixcommunity.org/realcodecs/

"For low to mid bit rate files (< 128 Kbps), RealAudio 10 deploys the advanced audio compression techniques that have made Real the worldwide leader in streaming media technologies and content delivery. "

"At higher bit rates (> 128 Kbps - typically suited for download or high bandwidth networks), RealAudio 10 incorporates the MPEG-4 AAC codec."

"AAC codec support at bitrates over 128 kbs means that music encoded can reach the many devices that support AAC..."

Source: http://www.realnetworks.com/products/codecs/realaudio.html

All of these quotes seem to imply AAC doesn't come into play until rates over 128. At 128 or lower, it's Cook. What gives?

Given the overlap (64 to 96), what am I using when I select 96kps in RealPlayer as the CD rip quality? Cook or AAC? I would love if the documentation discussed some of these issues. :rolleyes:


About RV10 vs DivX, it's all about taste. I encode mostly animes, and with RV10 I can get 60% smaller files without big quality loss.

Hmmm, interesting... I've been using Dr. DivX to encode my Simpsons DVD sets to HD. Can you recommend a good HOWTO for ripping DVDs to RealVideo? I am assuming you can't give Real Producer as VOB file as a source.

[Sirber]

You can't give VOB to any apps, it all go through AVISynth.

Cook: 5kbps - 96kbps
AAC: 64kbps - 320kbps
HE-AAC: 64kbps - 128kbps

Youcan use whatever codec you want.

[kamiller42]

Originally posted by Sirber
You can't give VOB to any apps, it all go through AVISynth.

Dr. DivX can process unencrypted VOB files. I thought Real Producer or another RealVideo tool might be able too.


Cook: 5kbps - 96kbps
AAC: 64kbps - 320kbps
HE-AAC: 64kbps - 128kbps

Youcan use whatever codec you want.

In RealPlayer 10, there are no distinctions. There are bitrates under "RealAudio" format and _one_ of the options is 96 Kbps. Given your chart above, how do I know which CODEC is being used? Cook, AAC, HE-AAC? They all support 96 Kbps. This is probably more obvious if using the CLI encoder, but not so obvious with RealPlayer 10.

Thanks for your help!

[Sirber]

I don,t know about Dr DIVX, but if your VOB is playable by DirectShow, procuder can handle them. About "Real Producer GUI", not RealPlayer, I can't tell since I only use my own encoding tools :D

[karl_lillevold]

hello kamiller42, thanks for your interest.

Your question about MPEG-2 as input to Producer is answered in the main sticky RV9 Info thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40392), section "Supported input formats to producer"

I understand you are confused about which codecs are used in RealPlayer 10 when ripping to "RealAudio 10". It is not easy to know. Unfortunately for advanced users of RealPlayer 10, design decisions are made mainly for the main intended target audience for RealPlayer 10, who are perhaps not that advanced, and one is worried they would be more confused by "complicated codec choices" ... Uuhm. Also see the FAQ in this thread, section "Why is not HE-AAC encoding supported in RealProducer, or why does not RealPlayer 10 rip music to HE-AAC at 96 kbps and below?" and "Which file format is AAC wrapped in when encoded in Producer or ripped in RealPlayer 10?"

[bond]

Originally posted by kamiller42
"RealAudio 10 incorporates the RealAudio codec for bitrates less than 128 kbps and is renowned for delivering near CD audio quality at 64 kbps."well thats simply marketing! you will surely not get cd quality at 64kbps!
do you believe everything the ads tell you? ;)

once again he-aac (and vorbis) beats the hell out of ra8 (or wma9) if it comes to 64kbps as proven independantly here (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html)

"For low to mid bit rate files (< 128 Kbps), RealAudio 10 deploys the advanced audio compression techniques that have made Real the worldwide leader in streaming media technologies and content delivery. "
"At higher bit rates (> 128 Kbps - typically suited for download or high bandwidth networks), RealAudio 10 incorporates the MPEG-4 AAC codec."well i guess this already answers your question about: "what am I using when I select 96kps in RealPlayer as the CD rip quality"?
you will use cook (ra8)

if you want to use 96kbps and realplayer isnt able to output aac at that bitrate, simply use another aac encoder (ie quicktime or nero), which are more compliant to exisiting hardware players anyways as they output .mp4 files (whereas realplayer outputs .ra which i doubt is supported by ipod for example)

I've been using Dr. DivX to encode my Simpsons DVD sets to HD. Can you recommend a good HOWTO for ripping DVDs to RealVideo? I am assuming you can't give Real Producer as VOB file as a source:search:

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well I'm a bit confused now (which isn't difficult)!

I followed your link and found this: -

Supported input formats to producer
Producer's native input format is I420, but it accepts YV12 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56972) and most uncompressed YUV formats with minimal color conversions. Also, since Producer reads files via DirectShow in Windows, it can transcode any format you can play back with a DirectShow player. This means you can directly encode .MPG, .WMV, .ASF, .MKV, .D2V, .AC3, .AVI (uncompressed, compressed, XviD, DivX), .AVS (of course), and even .VOB files, as long as you have the DirectShow filters installed such that the files are playable in your DS media player of choice. You can even transcode RM files, if you have the RealMediaSplitter (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56940) installed.

Previously with Helix Producer 9, I used to have to install Elecards Mpeg2 player (as well as AC3 filter) in order for Producer to 'see' .vob files in all their glory!

Has this really been superseded by simply installing the RealMediaSplitter 1.0.0.9?

Cheers

[Sirber]

nope, a splitter isn't a codec :)

[karl_lillevold]

Has this really been superseded by simply installing the RealMediaSplitter 1.0.0.9?

You can even transcode RM files, if you have the RealMediaSplitter installed.

RealMediaSplitter adds the ability to have Producer read RM files. It does not assist in reading MPEG-2.

[kamiller42]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
hello kamiller42, thanks for your interest.

Your question about MPEG-2 as input to Producer is answered in the main sticky RV9 Info thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40392), section "Supported input formats to producer"

Good to see I can feed VOB files to Real Producer. I didn't have much luck in the past. I will have to give the new version a spin.

I understand you are confused about which codecs are used in RealPlayer 10 when ripping to "RealAudio 10". It is not easy to know. Unfortunately for advanced users, design decisions are made mainly for the main intended target audience for RealPlayer 10, who are perhaps not that advanced, and one is worried they would be more confused by "complicated codec choices" ... Uuhm.
I guess I am one of those not so advanced. That's ok. I can eat a piece of humble pie with the best of them.

Let me see if I can summarize what the FAQ and thread says about RealPlayer.

1. HE-AAC is a higher quality format than AAC.
2. AAC is a higher quality format than RA8, otherwise known as Cook.
3. Real Network nor Helix wrote the AAC or HE-AAC codec. It's good nonetheless. :)
4. You cannot rip to HE-AAC at any rate now or when it's gold.
5. You can rip to AAC at bitrates 128kbps and above.
6. AAC files are ripped as .ra files.
7. On Gold release, AAC files will rip to .aac files. (What does this mean for AAC files ripped .ra in the beta?)

Did I get it right? Please correct or expand on these points.

[karl_lillevold]

@kamiller42: I apologize for any un-intended categorization. I only meant to speak of how the RealPlayer 10 UI is in some cases simplified so much that it is hard to use when one wants to fine-tune settings and make codec choices. Since you want to know exactly which codec and format to use, you are clearly one of the advanced users of RealPlayer 10 :) Then the simple menu is hard to understand, since it lists only RealAudio 10. Coming up with a UI that's user-friendly and understandable for everyone is pretty hard. Perhaps a check-box for "advanced" should be added, opening up all sorts of options, like detailed codec choices, encoder complexity, Volume Control preference, etc.

1) HE-AAC is just an addition to AAC, increasing the quality at 96 kbps and below, by adding so called SBR information. It is like MP3Pro, also invented by Coding Technologies, who later came up with AACPlus, now called HE-AAC.
2) cook does not scale above 96 kbps. AAC first starts to behave really well at 128 kbps. Which is better at 96 kbps and below probably depends on the listener. This listening test (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html) shows that AAC and cook got almost the same overall score at 64 kbps, while HE-AAC got the best score by far. Of course, your own ears should be the final judge.
3) absolutely
4) nope not now, but I can not speak for Gold.
5) yes
6) yes
7) Could be .m4a, could be .aac, most likely not .ra. Time will tell.

Thanks!

[kamiller42]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
@kamiller42: I only meant to speak of how the RealPlayer 10 UI is in some cases simplified so much that it is hard to use when one wants to fine-tune settings and make codec choices.
Now there's a statement which hits the nail right on the head.

Since you want to know exactly which codec and format to use, you are clearly one of the advanced users of RealPlayer 10 :) Then the simple menu is hard to understand, since it lists only RealAudio 10.
Since you raised the issue of the user interface, what happened to the handy hypertext navigating RealOne Player had? I loved that thing. When you keep navigating down into your library, like all the way down to a song, you could click one of the "bread crumb" hyperlinks just above the list view to get yourself back to whatever upper level you like. Maybe something else replaced it, and I don't see it. :(

Coming up with a UI that's user-friendly and understandable for everyone is pretty hard. Perhaps a check-box for "advanced" should be added, opening up all sorts of options, like detailed codec choices, encoder complexity, Volume Control preference, etc.
That sounds like a great idea. :)

1) HE-AAC is just an addition to AAC, increasing the quality at 96 kbps and below, by adding so called SBR information. It is like MP3Pro, also invented by Coding Technologies, who later came up with AACPlus, now called HE-AAC.
So HE-AAC excels at 96kbps and below, whereas AAC is best above 96. Hmm, so if HE-AAC is used by the RealPlayer 10 Gold for bitrates below 128, that doesn't leave much room for Cook. I guess Real Networks has an invested interest in keeping Cook around, and therefore, will probably not use HE-AAC to cut into Cook's turf. We'll see when Gold comes out.

2) cook does not scale above 96 kbps. AAC first starts to behave really well at 128 kbps. Which is better at 96 kbps and below probably depends on the listener. This listening test (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html) shows that AAC and cook got almost the same overall score at 64 kbps, while HE-AAC got the best score by far. Of course, your own ears should be the final judge.
If I'm reading the test correctly, the scores are based on an average of votes from contributing listeners. It seems tht would be susceptible to bias by fanboys. There are people who will say mp3 is superior to all no matter what. Ditto for RealAudio, etc., but I think the population of MP3 users heavily weighs bias to MP3's side.

4) nope not now, but I can not speak for Gold.
Now I hope it will. :)
7) Could be .m4a, could be .aac, most likely not .ra. Time will tell.
Speaking of time, what's the target date for gold? :)

The reason why all of this is important to me is because I've been using Real for music and recently video management since RealJukebox 1.0. I've purchased every version since. I've maintained my CD collection as a digital archive. I'm ready to refresh my digital audio library and am trying to determine which format should be my next high quality, compressed format. I would do lossless, but it takes too space.

I was going to start using RealAudio @ 192kbs, which gives me AAC. Should I wait to see if HE-AAC comes out with Gold? It would seem better to use HE-AAC @ 96kbps than AAC @ 192kbps if the quality is comparable. Am I oversimplying?

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by kamiller42

If I'm reading the test correctly, the scores are based on an average of votes from contributing listeners. It seems tht would be susceptible to bias by fanboys. There are people who will say mp3 is superior to all no matter what. Ditto for RealAudio, etc., but I think the population of MP3 users heavily weighs bias to MP3's side.
If you had also read
this (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/presentation.html), you had noticed that the listening test was done using a program called abc/hr (http://ff123.net/abchr/abchr.html) using which the users don't know which sample they are rating. I know this stuff. I was one of the participants.

I was going to start using RealAudio @ 192kbs, which gives me AAC. Should I wait to see if HE-AAC comes out with Gold? It would seem better to use HE-AAC @ 96kbps than AAC @ 192kbps if the quality is comparable. Am I oversimplying?
The quality isn't comparable. It is possible to distinguish the 96 kbps HE-AAC sample from original by most people. The 192 kbps version is better. If you don't believe me, test it yourself using abx-method.

Ps. If you want to test your own hearing, take part in the MP3 at 128 kbps test (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=17563&)

[bond]

Originally posted by kamiller42
If I'm reading the test correctly, the scores are based on an average of votes from contributing listeners. It seems tht would be susceptible to bias by fanboys. There are people who will say mp3 is superior to all no matter what. Ditto for RealAudio, etc., but I think the population of MP3 users heavily weighs bias to MP3's side.before claiming that the test could be biased better read how it was done

it is a so called double blind listening test meaning the listener doesnt know which codec he listens to atm, he only has uncompressed .wavs on his hd not knowing which codec was used to create each file
the next thing is he doesnt know which sample is the encoded one and which one is the original source wav

all in all i dont see how you can bias this test

[karl_lillevold]

kamiller42:

Since you raised the issue of the user interface, what happened to the handy hypertext navigating RealOne Player had? When you keep navigating down into your library, like all the way down to a song, you could click one of the "bread crumb" hyperlinks just above the list view to get yourself back to whatever upper level you like.
I don't have a system with RealOne V2, so I am not 100% sure I remember this feature. However, it seems in RealPlayer 10, you have both hyperlinks and pulldown-menus to navigate back up the library tree. See this snapshot:

http://www.lillevold.com/files/png/rp10_library.png

So HE-AAC excels at 96kbps and below, whereas AAC is best above 96. Hmm, so if HE-AAC is used by the RealPlayer 10 Gold for bitrates below 128, that doesn't leave much room for Cook. I guess Real Networks has an invested interest in keeping Cook around, and therefore, will probably not use HE-AAC to cut into Cook's turf. We'll see when Gold comes out.
We support RealAudio on many devices now, especially in the mobile space, where Cooke himself and his colleague have optimized the cook decoder to run faster and with a smaller memory footprint than their fixed point MP3 decoder, which is already the world's fastest ARM implementation. AAC on the other hand is a more complex decoder, especially if you include all its advanced features. Add HE- on top of that, and you have something that is very hard to get to run on small devices. Besides of course, the cost associated with obtaining fixed point implementations and licensing the IP for HE-AAC. This is why HE-AAC has its drawbacks even though it sounds great at low bitrates.

I was going to start using RealAudio @ 192kbs, which gives me AAC. Should I wait to see if HE-AAC comes out with Gold? It would seem better to use HE-AAC @ 96kbps than AAC @ 192kbps if the quality is comparable.
I would recommend AAC at 192 kbps, which I think there is wide agreement is very close to transparancy, and sounds better than HE-AAC at 96 kbps. This will play fine on devices that support AAC. I know of the iPod right now, others are probably soon arriving. Since RealPlayer 10 currently rips to .ra, you will have to go through some trans-muxing steps to convert to a device friendly format, until RealPlayer 10 Gold ships. See my FAQ in the first post.

Personally I ripped all my CDs to an early version of MP3 at 128 kbps many years ago, and have been happy with that for general computer playback. However, with practice from listening tests, for instance on hydrogenaudio, but mostly the use good headphones and a high quality DAC, I felt as if I learned a whole new world [yes, I am a video codec engineer, not audio]. I can now hear how many artifacts MP3 at 128 kbps has, and have started re-ripping all my old CDs to AAC at 192 kbps, assuming there will be widespread support for AAC in devices. Due to the reasons listed above, it will take more time until we see HE-AAC in devices.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Amazing!

I still can't get over the idea of having AAC audio in an RM (or RMVB) container.

I wonder what other streams could be put in the container... Mpeg4 video perhaps? :D

Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
AAC on the other hand is a more complex decoder, especially if you include all its advanced features. Add HE- on top of that, and you have something that is very hard to get to run on small devices.well what i read aac was developed also having "small devices" in mind, ie nokia and siemens also had their hands in the development of aac if i am informed right
and there exist nokia mobile phones which support aac decoding already

and the 3gpp standard, which was designed especially for mobile phone use, has aac defined as its audio format...

[karl_lillevold]

bond: true, but it is still a more complex decoder than MP3, by how much I do not know, perhaps not by much for baseline AAC. HE- though, is still very complex, I have been told.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I wonder what other streams could be put in the container... Mpeg4 video perhaps? :D
Yes, MPEG-4 video would work fine. RealMedia is just another flexible container format, like MP4 or Matroska.

[bond]

it can definitely be that aac is more complex than mp3
the aac guys again claim that vorbis is even more complex than aac etc...
hm i am surely not the right one to ask, what format needs what processor power on what devices aso :D

hm about he-aac i also guess that compared to aac its harder to decode, but he-aac is also used by the digital radio mondial system, which maybe also had "small devices" as recievers in mind...

well whatever, as long as it decodes on my poor p3 866mhz :D

[kamiller42]

Originally posted by bond
before claiming that the test could be biased better read how it was done
Thanks for the information. I barely have time to keep up with this thread much less keep up with every detail of the latest in music compression formats and tests. Your direction helps.

A blind test does help eliminate bias a lot, but I am not sure it can eliminate all bias. If I listen to mp3's all the time, I can probably better pick out an mp3 in a line up than another format because my ears are tuned to listening to mp3s. This "picking out" may not be intentional either. It may be simply subliminal preference.

Despite all of Pepsi's intentions, I still don't think Pepsi tastes better than Coke despite their blind taste tests. I can find the Coke in a Pepsi challenge. :)

I guess I was looking for something a little more precise than a blind listening test. I mean, we can take an image, copy it, and then pass both images through an analysis program and see how they differ. It would seem the copy with the lowest delta would be best.

[kamiller42]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
kamiller42:

I don't have a system with RealOne V2, so I am not 100% sure I remember this feature. However, it seems in RealPlayer 10, you have both hyperlinks and pulldown-menus to navigate back up the library tree. See this snapshot:

Great!! I am glad to see the feature is still there. The application looks the same in a lot of ways, but I'm still getting used to the subtle differences. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

I would recommend AAC at 192 kbps, which I think there is wide agreement is very close to transparancy, and sounds better than HE-AAC at 96 kbps. This will play fine on devices that support AAC. I know of the iPod right now, others are probably soon arriving. Since RealPlayer 10 currently rips to .ra, you will have to go through some trans-muxing steps to convert to a device friendly format, until RealPlayer 10 Gold ships. See my FAQ in the first post.
That paragraph alone is worth its weight in gold. I've been going back and forth trying to find my "next generation" audio format, and now you've helped me answer that question. :)

You mentioned you're ripping to AAC 192kbps. I assume you're talking about ripping and encoding with the RealPlayer or encoder in .ra format. I'm ready to rip to 192 AAC, but I would like to avoid any rework if things are different when Real 10 Gold releases. Then again, I am not sure how or if things will be radically different when Gold releases. I guess I'll have to wait.

[bond]

Originally posted by kamiller42
A blind test does help eliminate bias a lot, but I am not sure it can eliminate all bias. If I listen to mp3's all the time, I can probably better pick out an mp3 in a line up than another format because my ears are tuned to listening to mp3s. This "picking out" may not be intentional either. It may be simply subliminal preferenceif you have the interest and are fast there is atm such a blind listening test running on mp3 @ 128kbps :)
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/mp3-128/presentation.html

have a look at it but hurry up, today is the last day!

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by kamiller42
You mentioned you're ripping to AAC 192kbps. I assume you're talking about ripping and encoding with the RealPlayer or encoder in.ra format. I'm ready to rip to 192 AAC, but I would like to avoid any rework if things are different when Real 10 Gold releases.
Actually, since RealPlayer 10 is still Beta, and to avoid any extra work converting files later, by finding a complex solution to a automate the procedure now :) I am currently using an alternative solution to encode my CDs: Exact Audio Copy (EAC) with its command line encoder interface to do one of two:
1) EAC calls the RealProducer command line, which outputs AAC in .ra, then automatically and losslessly convert those files to .mkv, then too .aac, finally converting .aac to .m4a, and add tags. I described this earlier in the thread, but as you can see, there are many steps involved. Easier is
2) as discussed on hydrogenaudio, EAC calls command line nencode.exe, an interface to the Nero AAC encoder. The output is .m4a directly, and all that is needed now is to add tags.
Neither is all that easy to get started with, especially 1), but works well enough once up and running.

RealPlayer does include a "Convert Media" function which when Gold ships, can probably be used to convert losslessly from your .RA files to .M4A. However, since RealPlayer 10 Gold functionality in this respect is not yet certain and since it is Beta, I would probably recommend waiting. It should not be too long.

[bond]

thanks for your efforts karl :)

i guess the most easiest way to rip and encode to real mp4/m4a files is using itunes!
it includes one of the best (independantly prooven) aac codecs, is available for free and outputs real mp4/m4a files right away

it should be the best/easiest solution for newbies and people who want quick solutions

for other freaks, which maybe like he-aac too, the two ways you described should work best

[Sirber]

maybe someone could write a MP4 outout plugin for producer, like the MKV one :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi everyone,

I've just generated some RealAudio 10 encodes at different bitrates using RealPlayer 10 beta.

Can you please refresh my memory/confirm which codec and AAC complexity was used at following bitrates: -

32kbps
64kbps
96kbps
128kbps
160kbps
192kbps
256kbps
320kbps

Sorry to be a pain!

Cheers

[iwod]

Few points to made across........

1. Yes it is a fact that vobris is more complex than AAC. It was never designed with that in mind. AAC ( hi, bond? a open standard ^_^ ) has huge backing from the industry which means optimazation is faster.

2. Even though HE AAC is complex, by the time these tiny devices are widely avalible to play them, there processing power has gone up and decoder would have been better. Not to mention the new Paramatric Stero mode which suppose to increase quality at low bitrate ~ 24kbps.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Further to my previous post, the encodes sound a bit distorted!

Has anybody else reported this?

Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

SeeMoreDigital: 32 and 64 are cook. 96 and above AAC. Note that you can use D-C's useful RM analyzer/shell extension (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55392) and get all the details when right clicking on any RealMedia file (rename to .rm first, D-C did not know about .ra when he wrote his tool).

Re distortion: no, not to my knowledge. I have been playing these files in many different players, and/or after various conversions to other container formats, and not noticed any problem. What kind of distortion, and which of the codec flavors? There are a number of steps you can do to isolate the problem : change player, change decoder, change format (to mkv, then aac).

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've been playing the RealMedia .ra encodes using my Xcard (yep it can play these files too!). I noticed the disortion when comparing the rips ones I made using dbPowerAMP.

I've posted some links to the files here: -

Created_using_RealMedia_AAC@96kbps.ra (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Created_using_RealMedia_AAC@96kbps.ra)
Created_using_dbPowerAmp_AAC@96kbps.mp4 (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Created_using_dbPowerAmp_AAC@96kbps.mp4)

It might well be just an Xcard thing.

Cheers

[karl_lillevold]

Thanks. I think it is the Xcard. Both your samples sound fine here, RA played in RealPlayer and MPC (w 3ivx LC-AAC decoder), MP4 played in RealPlayer, MPC, and foobar2000.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Thanks. I think it is the Xcard. Both your samples sound fine here, RA played in RealPlayer and MPC (w 3ivx LC-AAC decoder), MP4 played in RealPlayer, MPC, and foobar2000. That's good to know.

I'll pass this info on to the guys at JovePlayer. After all, if it was'nt for them, I would not be able to watch all my wonderful .rmvb encodes on my TV via RGB/component video!

Thanks again

[phrentec]

For some reason I'm having problem with playing back a realaudio file. Can someone please give me the various names of the sipr dll. Thanks.

[Shinobu]

try to install my decoding pack, it's in frensh but easy to understand and it can decode lots of vidéo file included all real file, mkv, mp4, mpeg4, vp6 .... it's a pack of filter so it won't distrub your codec install ++

http://satsuki.yatoshi.free.fr/
download =>

Satsuki.Decoder.Pack Version 1.0.1.9 (4.29Mo)
give it a try, i think it's a very usefull pack, i might trad it in english someday ^^

++

[karl_lillevold]

File sharing now works on the new helixcommunity.org, but it will take some time to get all the previous binary releases in place. In the meantime, I have made available the DLLs that fix the problem playing back HE-AAC (racp) in RealPlayer 10 Beta:

HE-AAC (racp) fix for RealPlayer 10 Beta (https://helixcommunity.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=50)

If you have not already signed up, you have sign up to gain access to this. If you have signed up in the past, but not yet accessed the new site, you need to reset your password (https://helixcommunity.org/account/lostpw.php).

I have updated the FAQ in the beginning of this thread.

[DanielSun]

What is the difference between raac-2 and raac-7 ?:confused:

And could somebody kind enough to give a complete list of cook,raac and racp profiles?

like this:

------------------------------------------------------------
64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 0 44.1 kHz
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 1 44.1 kHz
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 2 44.1 kHz
------------------------------------------------------------

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[hellfred]

Originally posted by DanielSun
What is the difference between raac-2 and raac-7 ?:confused:

And could somebody kind enough to give a complete list of cook,raac and racp profiles?

like this:

------------------------------------------------------------
64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 0 44.1 kHz
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 1 44.1 kHz
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 2 44.1 kHz
------------------------------------------------------------

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The full list of codec flavors can be seen in the documentation that e.g.came with Helix Producer. Have a look at producer/docs/docs/AudienceFile.htm#Audio_Codec_Tables.
The documentation is available at Helixcomnuity, too, but i do not have the URL right away. But i am sure one can make its way through that side.

Hellfred

[Shinobu]

Loock at the documention of the audiance in producer, you'll find all the audio descrition you search

++

[DanielSun]

Originally posted by Shinobu
Loock at the documention of the audiance in producer, you'll find all the audio descrition you search

++

I got it !
https://producerapps.helixcommunity.org/cmdproducer/docs/AudienceFile.htm#Audio_Codec_Tables (RealProducer® 10.0 Audience File Reference)

[dckc]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold

64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 0 44.1 kHz
96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 1 44.1 kHz
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 racp 2 44.1 kHz



Hi karl_lillevold,

I have tried encoding anime clips using the latest Helix DNA Producer (10.0.0.545) with the aac addon. The codec flavor that I have tried are racc 0, racc 1, racp 0 and racp 1.

However, when playing the resulting rmvb files in Real Player 10 (6.0.12.872), the "clip source" shows that the sampling rate is 22050 Khz for racp 0 and 1, and 32000Khz for racc 0.

Stream: 1 Audio Stream
MIME type: audio/x-pn-realaudio
Max Stream Bit Rate: 64.0 Kbps
Audio Codec: (RealAudio) 22050 Khz

Is this only a bug in Real Player 10 that a wrong value is shown? Or the audio of rmvb clips are actually at 22050 Hz? Or 22050 Khz?
How can I verify the sampling rate of the clips?


Regards,
Daniel

[Shinobu]

the racp is in 22050 hz upsampled to 44100 while playing (like mp3pro).
i'm not sur realplyer fully support racp.
try to play your clip with mpc + coreaac
++

[dckc]

Originally posted by Shinobu
the racp is in 22050 hz upsampled to 44100 while playing (like mp3pro).
i'm not sur realplyer fully support racp.
try to play your clip with mpc + coreaac
++

Thanks for your reply. I have searched this forum using the keyword "mp3pro" and found much more information on this issue. Thanks a lot.

:)

Edit:
I have tried playing the anime clips using MPC with coreaac and mpc's internal aac decoder. The AAC+SBR and upsampling 22050 -> 44100hz info can be found in the coreaac property sheet. Moreover, the audio quality of racp 0/1 (just by my ears :)) when playback in RP10 is about the same as in MPC. So I think RP10 now fully supports HE-AAC playback. Thanks again for your help.

Another question:
Can I assume that racp is better than raac at 96Kpbs, and racp is not useful at 128Kbps? Is this just a subjective opinion and cannot be compared at a technical point of view?

[Shinobu]

Just test with your ears raac@128 vs racp@128, if the 2 are for you equivalents, use raac (lest cpu usage while encoding & decoding)


++

[Rash]

I think the fact Helix is developing RV10 toghether with this community is very appreciated.

Congrats Karl. ;)

[EDIT] Oh, sorry for posting this so late, hehe. :) I've been quite busy.

[karl_lillevold]

Better late than never :) thank you!

[lunaticmoon]

Could Helix Team take measures against hybrid material more and more ?

At the present time, correspondence is WMV9's interlace maintain mode only.
if RV10 deal with hybrid material, I can recommend RV10 for anime freaks in my community.
but most people of them are using WMV9 now :(

[karl_lillevold]

lunaticmoon: Please see my reply in the other thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78948), where I asked you to explain the problem in other words. Producer's auto de-interlace and IVTC filters are designed to take care of video consisting of both interlaced and telecine'd material mixed together. It can also encode VFR without any problems. This is why the problem is not clear to me, and I need to understand it better, and what hybrid material means. Thanks.

[iradic]

sorry if this has been answered before...

what is difference between 'helixproducer_rmrepair_10_windows.zip' and 'helixproducer_10_windows.zip' at Helix DNA Producer Apps (https://helixcommunity.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=50) ?

thanks

[Rash]

Can I make a stupid off topic question?

Don't you guys at Real have any interest on competing with WM9 for the HD-DVD format? I think it is a lot more mature than WM9 since there has been a massive development on it. ;)

[Sirber]

Originally posted by jcsston
Here the first public release of such a plugin.
helix-mkvwriter-v0.0.2 (http://corecodec.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=15&release_id=122)
I have tested it with AAC audio, RealVideo 10, cook audio, and sipr audio. (I couldn't get producer to encode any HE-AAC)

Of course being able to mux RealVideo and RealAudio into Matroska with this plugin is just a coincidence ;) Seems this don,t exist anymore :(

[jcsston]

Yes, corecodec has been down and the new server has only been online. Hopefully we'll have the old projects back in soon, so the link will work again.
Dunno if I still have a binary of this on my hd. :o

[Sirber]

If you have, can you mail it to me please? thanks :D

[jcsston]

http://mkvwriter.corecodec.org/mkvwriter-v0.0.3.zip

[karl_lillevold]

I edited the post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=447903#post447903) I wrote about mkv-writer in the Containers forum, to reflect the new download location. Thanks again, jcsston!

an old question by iradic (sorry for the delay):
what is difference between 'helixproducer_rmrepair_10_windows.zip' and 'helixproducer_10_windows.zip'
the rmrepair version can read RM files, will either re-code (trans-code) or trans-script (re-package). The RM files can be normal, or broken, that is the result of a crash during the encoding, such that they have not been finalized.

[Sagittaire]

Possible to choose quant interval (I,P,B) for second pass encoding in next version of RV10E ... ?

[karl_lillevold]

Sagittaire: I am afraid I don't quite understand your question.. Could you try to clarify?

EDIT: If what you mean is like set quant 1-3 for I, 2-12 for P, 3-14 for B, then I would have to look into it further, but perhaps that could be added, if someone would find it useful.

[WorBry]

Hi,

Although a longstanding "DivX man", I'd heard so many good reports about RV10 that I thought I'd give it a look. First tried to install the 'freebee' basic RealProcuder but I couldnt open up the program -exe. generated errors. So tried AutoRV10 instead and I'm very impressed with the results. I have several (naive) questions:

1. Are there any standalone DVD-MPEG4 players that can playback RV10 video. If not, is this something that could feasibly be introduced as a firmware upgrade or does it involve a totally different decoding technology (like I said, naive).
2. I'm always on the lookout for alternative ways to play videos on my pocket pc (iPAQ3970). I'd actually removed the Mobile RealOne Player that came with it, mainly because its usefulness seemed to be limited to wireless streaming of the occasional emdedded realmedia clip, which at current GPRS rates in my locality is a very costly luxury. Even so, I thought I would chance my luck and encoded some test clips with AutoRV10 at various resolutions (320x240, 240x180, 320x176) and bitrates (180 - 250) with and without realaudio at 44kbits/s, 48KHz stereo. None would play on the mobile player. Is there any prospect of a RealMedia player for pocketpc that is able to play RV9/10?

Thanks.

[Sagittaire]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
If what you mean is like set quant 1-3 for I, 2-12 for P, 3-14 for B, then I would have to look into it further, but perhaps that could be added, if someone would find it useful.

Yes ... exactly ... but not necessary for each frame type

rcMinQuant and rcMaxQuant for exemple

[Sirber]

If we are about to have it, to specify by each frame type would be the better option. What if I want I to be around 1-2 an P 2-3?

[ganeshpetkar]

Hi all,
i m doing real video decoder10.
in order 2 get license what r the qualities it has 2 satisfy with standard decoder & also snd link for standard input test vectors.
please reply ASAP.

Regards
Ganesh

[karl_lillevold]

The Helix Community (https://helixcommunity.org/) is a much better place to ask questions related to RealVideo decoder porting. You should already be registered there if you have the decoder source code. Here is the link to the RealAudio and RealVideo Technology Compatibility Kit (https://rarvcode-tck.helixcommunity.org/), which includes test vectors.

[CruNcher]

karl anything new ? ;)

[Rash]

Wow! Helix is up and running! That is great! :D It was a long time since I last heard about it.