Multi Angle Problem with Nero Recode 2

[djan]

Hi everybody,

I don't really know if it's a multi angle problem but I have a solid problem with it with the movie XMEN1 in Recode 2. I have 3 times the same movie in one selection, I can't keep the one I need and disable the two others.

How can I resolve my problem ?

Thx in advance.

[writersblock29]

What are you trying to do with Recode? Are you trying to keep the menus and have only one angle present? If so, you'll have scores of trouble since that will inherantly involve changing the DVD's file structure; multi-angle movies tend to have different areas of each angle shuffled within the same VOB files, residing within certain VOB ID chains. When you select a given angle for playback (say, only angle one), only the VOB IDs needed for the selected angle will play in sequence. A good example of seeing this in use is with the STAR WARS movies: When the introductory titles scroll up the screen, you'll see them do so in *I beleive* three different languages -- if the movie has been stripped in such a way as to utilize all the angles, without specifying which angle to watch during playback. Stripping out any of the angles involves removing the VOB IDs that the unwanted angles reside on.

If you are using the "movie-only" function of Recode, then you should have the option of which angle you want to keep -- at the expense of being able to keep your menus and extras. Since the IFO will contain playback information for only one titleset, Recode can allow this seperation to take place. On the other hand -- if you're keeping your menus and whatnot -- since there's links to each angle in the IFO file (which Recode won't change the properties of on a full disk copy), your only real option is to first process the movie with IFOedit in order to eliminate the other angles before using Recode to re-encode the streams. There's a lot that can go wrong while doing this... so the question becomes one of how important those menus are to you if you don't want the trial and error of changing the file structures.

Now... if you're using the "movie only" functioning of Recode and still running into this problem, that's a whole different ballgame. You *should* be able to simply open the title which has the angle you want to keep, and go for glory.

Any of that help out at all?

[The Zulu]

Disabling angles in Recode 2 shouldn't pose a problem with the dvd file structure since all Recode does upon disabling is "fill-in" for those disabled features. It gives you the option of playing a frame, color, or slide show for the length of the title. I'm not sure why you can't disable the angles though. I know I've been able to disable titles in Recode 2 just fine.

Maybe some more info on what is going on when you try to disable. Is the disable button, for lack of better word, disabled? Or do you get an error? What happens?

[djan]

@ writersblock29 :

Thx a lot, you well explained the situation. It's impossible to choose the angle we want to encode with recode when we want to keep all the DVD structure with menus and all. What I had to do was to encode Movie Only. So I can choose the angle I want to encode but I lose all the menus.

@ The Zulu :

I think you never had the problem of disabling an angle. Disabling a title is easy but the problem is that all the angles are shown in like one package like per example "Title 1-3" means all the 3 angles are in this package. So when you want to disable, you have to disable all the 3. That's really annoying if you see what I mean :)

Thx you two.

[writersblock29]

@djan

You're welcome! Glad I could help!
:)

[writersblock29]

@The Zulu

So long as the title you're stripping out resides on its own VOB files, Recode can easily remove the video on these. The trouble with multiangle movies is that you may well have three different versions of the film which are all on one set of VOBs.

Let's say you have a collection of main-movie VOBs:

VTS_01_0.IFO, VOB, and BUP (menus)
VTS_01_1.VOB -- let's say... VTS_01_7.VOB (main movie)

Each of the main movie VOBs contain a chain of VOB IDs -- each with a different piece of a different puzzle. Angle One may reside on IDs 1,2,3,4, and 7. Angle Two may reside on 1,2,5,6,7. Angle Three may be on 1,2,3,4,6, and 8. This is all hypothetical for the sake of this example, but the point is that many angles share the same VOB IDs. Since Recode only replaces the video of unwanted titles, it would be forced to replace the streams of IDs used in DESIRED angles in order to disable UNDESIRED ones. While in therory it's possible to simply disable the menu buttons that activate a given angle (and, thereby, preserve menu function)... they're still there, taking up space -- just not accessable.

However, when you do a movie-only project, and select *let's say* Angle One, then ONLY the IDs needed are copied and processed. While it IS possible to strip away unwanted angles by removing their VOB IDs (through IFOedit or other programs), then patch them back to the original menus and disable a few buttons to make it all work right... it's a lot of work, and beyond the scope of a one-clicker like Recode.

Now, since special features don't tend to be multiangled (some are, though -- there's a new trick to every DVD these days, it seems), it's simple enough for Recode to replace them with the "video has been removed" still image; Recode isn't messing up anything that you want to keep by doing so.

...Any of that make sense? After reading over it again, MY head's spinning!
;)

[The Zulu]

It all makes sense. I suppose I was either assuming I had successly done a multi-angle movie on Recode 2 or inferring that it was similar to IFOEdit stripping. Not what I was thinking. I guess that's fair though, Recode isn't a program trying to suit the purpose of commercial DVD archiving. If it handled VOB-IDs like IFOEdit, it would be a nice improvement.

On another note, I wasn't aware the Recode wrote new IFO files in movie-only mode the way IFOEdit does, so I guess I won't have to strip movies out of VOBs on that before going to Recode.

Thanks.

[writersblock29]

@The Zulu

I was having to use IFOedit to create movie-only projects before running them through Recode, too. I wanted to remove the layer break. The nice thing about the newest Recode is that it will remove the layer break for you! I've still found many uses for IFOedit, though: When you're joining titles in Recode's reauthoring mode, it'll save the second title as Title Two -- even if you merge the titles together -- and there's a funny little pause during playback. I've found that I can process the Recode files through IFOedit and make them one continuous title. This won't work, however, if each title has been put into seperate VOB chains (VTS_01 and VTS_02): They have to be from merged titles. Also, if you remove the default audio track in full-copy mode with Recode, you'll have a silent movie. IFOedit will allow you to set a different stream as your default (I had to use this while backing up ROBIN WILLIAMS LIVE, since the default's a giant PCM track, and I only wanted the Dolby Stereo track).

Still -- after all this time -- a great tool in the toolbox! Derrow's da man!

[windtrader]

writer,

What you describe is what I am encountering but in a DVD that has combined two versions of the movie in a single VTS. It does not use proper angles as the movies only show one angle but under the covers, it sure sounds like it is handling the different scenes between the two versions using the same mechanics used to built multiangle movies. As far as the tools are concerned, it seems that a multiangle movie is the same as movie title that contains a theatrical and director cut versions.

Functionally, you have to handle these differently. In the case of multi-angle, you just specify which angle(version) you would like to copy and away you go. In the case of two versions, each defined as a separate PGC in the single VTS, you need to select the proper one.

On other thing I have encountered is, when the single title is selected to be reauthored, Shrink will create quite a few extra titles to be copied. I looked at these extra titles and each one contained different versions of certain scenes, those that differed between the different versions of the movie.

I've been doing this for awhile and for some reason this type of authored disc has created the greatest difficulty to deal with.

[writersblock29]

@windtrader

I haven't experienced one of those before... but I think I can see how that could logically be done. Have you ever used DVD Maestro? In that program, you can specify playback actions for everything you can think of -- If you really wanted to, you could lay a command within your IFO files to play, say, chapter 8 after chapter 2, or to even play some part of an entirely different stream which will reside on a different set of VOBs (Movie 2, Chapter X). I'd think it only a matter of time before studios began using saddle tricks like this to make copying tougher to achieve. Wouldn't surprise me, anyway!

Either way, to play correctly, each program chain will need a command to execute properly -- and that's really all you're calling up when you access an IFO file. Sure, all the various VTS files will have to be there in order to be accessed, but I really can't see where a copying program which relies on pulling program chains would have much trouble doing a movie-only version of whatever you're looking for. The tricky part is in knowing exactly which version of the film you'd like to keep. Director's cuts are normally longer than the theatrical version, so most of the time you're safe just selecting the title with the longest running time. But let's say that you're trying to copy just one version of TERMINATOR 2 off the Ultimate Edition. You'll have three of them puppies to choose from. If you're intimately familiar with the films, then it's not much of a problem to know what's what. Sure, DVD Shrink and Recode both allow you to watch whatever you've selected... but it gets a bit boring watching a two and a half hour long movie through a three-inch preview window!

Those full-disk backups will kill you, too: You could use Recode or Shrink, and the disk will behave perfectly... but you just may sacrifice quality. To use IFOedit and TMPGE, you have to cross your fingers and HOPE that IFOedit will properly re-create the original's structure for TMPGE to use during encoding -- otherwise, it won't remux properly. CCE? Forget it! Even for the breathtaking quality.

What's life without challenges, though, eh?

--Cheers!

[windtrader]

Writer,

I do use Maestro a lot more recently since DVD2DVD keeps crapping out in the Scenarist step. I pull in the pulldown video, audio, subs and mux it up myself. I could do as you suggest but, at least for me, it would be a long, tedious, and error-prone approach to just make backup. As it is, using D2SRoba, DVD2DVD, CCE, Scenarist, and the other host of utilities, plus Maestro now, is too complicated already. :-) The results are superior though, so worth the effort.

I'd think it only a matter of time before studios began using saddle tricks like this to make copying tougher to achieve. Wouldn't surprise me, anyway! When the Alien disc is installed, the first menu requires you select the version of the movie. It then brings up the main menu for that version of the movie. What happens along the way is GPreg are being set all over the place and they the movie navigates using these settings. The pre-commands in the PCGITI are quite complex; doing calls, jumps, links, etc. Frankly, I could not figure out where the hell the movie was supposed to go next. It seems to be as well that it would be quite simple for the studios to make a lot of DVD nearly impossible to play properly after being copied.

Real quick - the original task I was trying to accomplish on this disc is to copy the main single vob that included both versions, put it through a compress using DVD2DVD/CCE, and have a disc with IFOS that would support the proper navigation to both versions. I went through all the tools in my kit and could never get it worked out.

What I am trying to do is very much like trying to copy both angles of a movie in one go and retain the ability to play both "versions".

[writersblock29]

@windtrader

Oof! Well, you've got your work cut out for ya! I really wouldn't know where to begin, either! Sounds like you're familiar with all the same tools that I am... so I'm at a loss! I could suggest some things, but those would all really be far more work than they're probably worth -- I'd betcha that I'd just (if it were me) create two backups; one with one angle on it, another with the second. They'd HAVE to each be on their own command chain to be playable, so I'd think that you could just use the reauthor function of Shrink to extract them, but specify no compression so that you could process them down with CCE for quality's sake. Maybe even squeeze 'em both on the same DVD by making a simple menu in Maestro (I've done that with both MEN IN BLACK movies -- which are both admittedly short films to begin with -- and they look sweet, on one DVD+R) so that you can select which one you want to watch. Naturally, though, you'd have some of the same movie information on each version -- only encoded twice, therefore taking up more space.

Maybe someone like Doom9 (who's, I'm sure, forgotten more than I'll ever know about dealing with multiangle movies) could provide some input. There's gotta be someone out there who can give you some information!

[windtrader]

writer,
I'd betcha that I'd just (if it were me) create two backups; one with one angle on it, another with the second. They'd HAVE to each be on their own command chain to be playable, so I'd think that you could just use the reauthor function of Shrink to extract them, but specify no compression so that you could process them down with CCE for quality's sake. Hey, great minds think alike. :-) That is exactly what I did - used Shrink reauthor, selecting the main movie which created multiple titles in the reauthored window, thus separate PGC for each version. Ran DVD2DVD/CCE on each title to shrink to fit on one CD. There is still weird internal conflicts in the ripped movie because Scenarist still fails due to these errors. A manual run through Maestro wraps up the final authoring steps,

Naturally, though, you'd have some of the same movie information on each version -- only encoded twice, therefore taking up more space. Well, I'd say NEARLY ALL instead of "some" and that's was why I was trying to retain both PGC but one set of unique cells (no duplicates). The quality would be far better.

Oh well, I just gave in and used two discs. Woopeee! cost me an extra dollar. For the time I spent that probably works out to ten cents an hour. :sly:

EDITED - Just reacquainted myself with DVDSTRIPPER. There is a thread called "What is a linked cell?" in their forum that describes exactly what has been discussed here and it is supposed to process the required cells just as I woukd like. Guess I'll pursue this one next.