So much for AutoGK (GKIF4U)

[Maverick]

Well, I thought it was going to have WM9 support from the start, like was stated, but I was wrong.
Came back to doom9 after a while, hopefully seeing some progress on GKIF4U. After all 0.4 was a 'little' buggy :)
I was looking forward to some automation with my Windows Media encoding, I think I even offered help to begin with, but alas no.

I start it up, to be met with no Windows Media Video option. Oh well, No big deal. As long as they have another audio other than the 11 year old MPEG-1 Layer 3.... Oh Crap.

Well guys, I guess it's good work for something, I dont know what your new tool is meant to do apart from compete, and do the same job as an already good tool called Dr. Divx, but it dosent do what I want to do.

Keep... whatever you're doing... up.

[jggimi]

Maverick, have you read DDogg's post about free pies (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7770&highlight=free+pies) that he wrote back in the fall of 2001?

[Doom9]

Well, I thought it was going to have WM9 support from the start, like was stated, but I was wrong.
I'm sure you can point us to such a statement by len0x ;)

AutoGK is a tool meant for standalone output. Can any existing standalones play WMV9? No. How about WMA audio? No (though you'll get the antique DivX audio format eventually).

I doubt that Dr. DivX even gets close and AutoGK started out as an XviD tool for which there is no equivalent.

but it dosent do what I want to do.
May I respectfully suggest that if you don't like existing tools, you start your favorite development environment and write your own program? Rants like this are useless.

[stax76]

but it dosent do what I want to do


it's not possible to make a application to do exactly what you want to do unless you code it yourself. It not a big deal to do so if you know how program. I bought a SkyStar 2 DVB card two weeks ago and noticed the available programs don't fit my needs very well. I coded a entire DVB program with the new wonder language C# in two weeks, most of the time spend inproving my .NET skills and putting general components together that can be reused in other programs. While coding the program I learned a lot about attributes and reflection which is a innovative and very important concept in .NET and in component programming in general, in fact it's used all over the place in the .NET framework. Next VisualStudio and .NET framework versions will introduce even more productivity features with generics being my favorite for fast prototyping and improved performance. Often there are already open source projects that could be modified, contributed to and used to learn, VirtualDubMod or DVX for instance support WM9.

Dolemite

[Sargon]

Originally posted by Doom9
I'm sure you can point us to such a statement by len0x ;)

AutoGK is a tool meant for standalone output. Can any existing standalones play WMV9? No. How about WMA audio? No (though you'll get the antique DivX audio format eventually).

I doubt that Dr. DivX even gets close and AutoGK started out as an XviD tool for which there is no equivalent.

May I respectfully suggest that if you don't like existing tools, you start your favorite development environment and write your own program? Rants like this are useless.


Hey, I'm Newbie in this organization. So far I enjoy almost day by day the work and efforts done by Lenox. I am not a developper and I can't write a single line of a program, but a relative of mine is a developper and I can tell it is big labor; and I have the most profound respect for all developpers. So I enjoy AutoGK and Regular GK above all tools concerning DVD backup. Some bugs happens ??? Ok, we mention it and it will be corrected quickly. I could experienced this for about 4 months reading threads and articles. By the way I could learn more in 4 months here than on my own for 2 years.... Good job Lenox...I appreciate your "PIES":D

[len0x]

I've been here for a while now and still posts like this amaze me :)
Do ppl still believe that they can get everything from freeware programs ???

[Doom9]

Do ppl still believe that they can get everything from freeware programs ???
Sure looks like it. But we're really spoiling them.. a huge collection of info for free, a great forum for free, great tools for free, etc.

[colordog]

@doom9 & @len0x

While this thread was indeed started by an obvious 'whiner', please do realize that some of us out here are very appreciative of this great freeware, and are very appreciative of the free hosting and forum service that Doom9 provides.

Although, I must agree with len0x - it's sometimes absolutely amazing that people complain about software that

1) is free
2) they don't code themselves
3) is free
4) they don't alpha or beta test
5) is free
6) don't help to develop with time or money, other than to say "it sucks"
7) is free.

Wow!

Oh yeah, welcome to the forums Maverick!

[jggimi]

Maverick has been a member for two years, Colordog. Maverick's only other post was in February 2002, and it was a "thank you" to Doom9. So while there may have been whining in this thread, it may just have been an off day. But based upon Maverick's level of contribution to the forum ... it was certainly an unprovoked diatribe.

[colordog]

Fair enough.

Sorry, I just love free pies - almost as good as free beer. Mmmm....

I really am a fan of Doom9 and GKnot. I'd actually pay for GKnot, if Doom9 and len0x would take money for it! I don't mind paying for great software that I use often.

[bilu]

Originally posted by len0x
I've been here for a while now and still posts like this amaze me :)
Do ppl still believe that they can get everything from freeware programs ??? Every new day I believe it harder... :D

Bilu

[bilu]

Originally posted by Doom9
Sure looks like it. But we're really spoiling them.. a huge collection of info for free, a great forum for free, great tools for free, etc. You're asking for a "Thank you" Denial of Service? :D

Bilu

[BiaTch 5.0]

Can any existing standalones play WMV9? No. How about WMA audio? No
I have seen quite a few DVD players that support WMA if you had said WMA Pro, no I have not seen any support for it yet.

I've been here for a while now and still posts like this amaze me
Do ppl still believe that they can get everything from freeware programs ???
Most of the time I have found freeware to better than shareware programs in most cases, maybe because it's not done for financial gain, user + developer communication is better, development time is unlimited, the developers enjoy developing the soft more & most of the time projects are only created if there is need for the program.

To be honest I would like to see WMV9 support but with XviD very close to 1.0 I don't see any need for the very slow encoder commercial encoder.

All the work done is appreciated by me & I'm sure many others are very happy using AutoGK & GKnot.

[Maverick]

Alright alright, It was unprovoked, and it was a spur of the moment thread.
However, I do remember very early discussions about AutoGK about how it was going to support a number of different formats, and that did excite me. Thusly such a great letdown that it was to find the program in the state I found it.
And anyway, I have a hate for MP3. I know you'll complain about my continuing to complain, but I don't know what the big deal is about implementing support for another audio codec. Ogg, AAC, and my favorite of course, WMA9.

And as I said, it's good for what it does, but I'm sure you're all aware of heaps of other programs that encode into xvid/divx and MP3, it's just nothing new. It's fairly early in developement, and if the infrastructure is in place to expand to at least one other audio codec, please do.

I am greatly thankful for all of doom9's other resources, and Gordian Knot original, whilst a knot, is a great program.
If it were an earlier beta I might have been less critical.

[colordog]

*blink*

[colordog]

Well, I was writing a really big and involved several page essay, but I accidentally hit the 'back' button on my mouse, and zapped it. It's probably for the best, as I tend to ramble on and on about boring stuff.

In short:

If you were "letdown", you had expectations.

If you had expectations, you were silly to have had them.

You were silly because why should you have expectations for something that is free? Why should you be "disappointed" about something that you haven't given intelligence, time, or money to? Right? (Some would say, don't be critical at all, regardless of the release version of GKnot, or of the free pies in question).

On a more constructive note, there are a LOT of threads that discuss implementing OGG and AC3 into GKnot. It would probably help you to understand "what the big deal is" if you checked them out. Seriously - while I doubt it - it could be a case that the current developers are working on other issues more interesting to them, and YOU could even be the first person to make it happen! At least, if you read the relevant threads, you could contribute ideas and feedback after you understand the issues.

Just plain complaining will get you skewered 'round these parts. :sly:

Long live free pies! :cool:

[len0x]

Originally posted by Maverick
but I don't know what the big deal is about implementing support for another...

I'm gonna say last one thing here: don't you dare tell me about "big deal". While you're going out with friends, seeing movies or spending time with your girlfriend I have to sit and write support for OGG, WMA etc just to please you? You better rethink that... I have limited amount of time and only I decide how I should spend it. So for now I decided I'm gonna quitely ignore requests from ppl like you...

[bilu]

Originally posted by len0x
I'm gonna say last one thing here: don't you dare tell me about "big deal". While you're going out with friends, seeing movies or spending time with your girlfriend I have to sit and write support for OGG, WMA etc just to please you? You better rethink that... I have limited amount of time and only I decide how I should spend it. So for now I decided I'm gonna quitely ignore requests from ppl like you... From what I've seen so far that happens all the time when someone develops an automatic tool. I remember all the shouting on Vidomi's forums. You've been doing a great job so far, and have a lot yet to ignore ... :rolleyes:


Bilu

[colordog]

Originally posted by bilu
You've been doing a great job so far, and have a lot yet to ignore ...
I have to disagree with that attitude. While you're right, and people will tend to drift to "gimme what I want for free", len0x shouldn't have to be subjected to that mentality in his own development forum. If I was len0x, and had spent so much time upgrading and bringing new functionality to GKnot, I'd be really ticked off (to put it lightly) to read about some guy's disappointment about how much work and progress I've put into GKnot. That concept is simply asinine.

It's obvious from Maverick's postings that he doesn't understand why this is asinine. Using phrases like:

"... it was such a great letdown to find the program in the state [Maverick] found it..."
"... I don't know what the big deal is for implementing support for another audio codec"
"... if it were an earlier beta, I might be less critical..."
" keep ... whatever you're doing ... up"
Titling his thread "So much for AutoGK"

I would strongly suggest again for Maverick to read the "free pies" (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7770&highlight=free+pies) link that jggimi provided. Bluntly put, he has no basis to (1) "continue to complain", (2) be disappointed, (3) be critical (4) have any sort of expectations. It's ridiculous.

The only real function that these kinds of postings serve is to tick off the developers (see len0x's post above). One of the very, very few things the developers get in return for their massive amount of effort is simply our thanks. No money, stock options, or good parking spaces are given out. There's little recognition, no awards, and no glamour really either. There's self-satisifaction, and gratitude, both of which are tainted and downplayed from postings like those of Maverick. Len0x may ask himself, "why the hell am I putting in so much damn work only to have people complain about me not doing what they want? Screw this." If he did - would there be a future version of Gordian Knot? And let's be honest - I don't want to lose access to the free pies that I've been eating from the Len0x bakery, either.

We do not deserve answers from len0x and Doom about "where's my codec support?". When people like them give us so much effort and time, it is they that deserve our gratitude.

If you are disappointed, or letdown? You have many constructive options. (Stating your disappointment over a free product is not constructive. We call that whining.) You can:

1) Shut up and keep that disappointment to yourself
2) Use another program
3) Read about all the messages and threads concerning your specific item of disappointment, so you'll understand why 'your bidding' has not been done yet
4) Take #3 a step further, invest some of your own time and become a developer and help make it happen

Take #2 for instance: after all, Maverick states that he likes Dr. DivX - he could pay for it, and then he could go to the DivX forums and complain and complain and complain about its lack of codec support. That's a much more fair situation, as he would have entered the capitalistic mode of exchanging money for a product and the "right" to bitch at the company he bought it from. It might be viewed as annoying, but certainly wouldn't be unexpected in a commerical setting.

Here, it's unexpected.

In the future, I hope everyone would please consider how their statements might be viewed by other people in this forum community, especially those that provide you with GKnot and AutoGK F R E E of charge. You never pay anything to run the program, nor pay costs to host it so it's available for download.

DDog really did say it best:
Originally posted by DDog
The moral of this story is: if you like free pie, but not this weeks flavor, keep your pie hole shut about it, or you may not get the chance to try next weeks flavor. Or you can go bake your own, of course.
Because if you don't realize it, the danger here is that such complaints will turn len0x off to making GKnot, and then there won't be one. Such a scenario falls under "not cool", and I'd imagine that offenders would have to remain hidden in the underground for the rest of their life as video encoders hunt them down for sport and/or profit.

Read free pies (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7770&highlight=free+pies).

[bilu]

@colordog
I wasn't referring to GordianKnot but to AutoGK.
The more streamlined (less options) a tool is, the more you'll see users whining about this or that feature support.

With less automated tools, users are more willing to do their stuff outside the main process. Of course they will be glad if blessed with that feature, but they're not afraid of doing stuff manually.

Whiners are guys who are afraid / not in the mood to do things themselves, not necessarily programming but e.g. audio/ subtitle muxing, etc.


Bilu

[Maverick]

Ah free speech, what all americans hold in such high regard in their First Ammendment.
It still exists here in a *Public* forum, and the forum rules do not state 'No Criticism Allowed'.
For support of a program to exist, there must be criticism.
Thus there are my posts.

Originally posted by len0x
I'm gonna say last one thing here: don't you dare tell me about "big deal". While you're going out with friends, seeing movies or spending time with your girlfriend I have to sit and write support for OGG, WMA etc just to please you? You better rethink that... I have limited amount of time and only I decide how I should spend it. So for now I decided I'm gonna quitely ignore requests from ppl like you...

Yes my comments arent constructive, but I have however backpedaled in my opinion.
You are creating a great program.
Perhaps you have not realised however how much I hate MP3, or how much I love Vanilla GK.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63035&highlight=windows+media
You obviously do not take even lighter criticism than what I have stated easily. It's not my place to say, but I say it anyway, throughout releasing products for *Public* consumption you will recieve criticism. I am just suprised you have not recieved more.
In any case my first post was much too harsh, it still puts across what I believe.
As a side note, whilst I am apologetic for what I have said, and the emotions it has stirred up, it is still what I feel.

[DevilsChild]

AutoGK allows the user to quickly create XviD/DivX content for easy playback. It's perfect for high-bitrate (2CD) encodes, where you don't really need to play around with the settings too much to get good quality.

Most people have never heard of AAC or Vorbis, nor do they want to go through the hassle of installing OggDS or AAC filters on their system. Many people don't even have AC3 filters installed on their computer. MP3 is by far the most well known and universally supported of all audio formats. In any case, I don't think VDubMod supports AAC or WMA, so it would probably be pretty hard to implement those formats.

Dr. DivX may have many of the same features, but I doubt it produces output of the same quality as AutoGK. It's also surprisingly expensive.

[KpeX]

Originally posted by Maverick
Ah free speech, what all americans hold in such high regard in their First Ammendment.
It is true that you are free to post what you want here. However your postings can have consequences. If you started spamming the forum with warez links or blatant advertising you would expect to be banned very soon. Similarly unconstructive posts disrespecting developers' work are not without consequence. Your post was not censored or deleted was it? In this case the consequences are friendly people like jggimi, colordog, and bilu showing you the ways of this forum.

Originally posted by Maverick
It still exists here in a *Public* forum, and the forum rules do not state 'No Criticism Allowed'.Although this forum is public, it is privately owned and operated. Last time I looked, the title was Doom9's forum. Doom9 is an individual, and he runs this site and forum himself, and if you noticed his site and forum is completely ad-free; this is another form of a free pie that we are all very grateful for. Therefore you are subject to the forum rules when posting here. And the forum rules do not say no critcism, but rule two does say that one should get to know the netiquette. The 'free pies' theorem and the respect of free software authors is a very integral part of the netiquette here at Doom9.

Originally posted by Maverick
For support of a program to exist, there must be criticism.
I have to disagree. Your logic is flawed. Especially in the early development stages of a program, an expert in the area such as len0x knows what AutoGK needs to be more complete. It is true that user feedback helps a program to mature but it can be much better phrased than your early posts in this thread.

Regarding MP3, Mp3 is one of the most dominant audio formats in the AV world, is the easiest to support, and provides excellent quality when encoded as it is in AutoGK (besweet/lame) therefore one user's dislike of a format is not going to be enough to change its wide usage and support.

[colordog]

Originally posted by Maverick
For support of a program to exist, there must be criticism.

1) You are not asking for support. You are asking for new functionality to be implemented while expressing your disappointment of the current state of the program.
2) Support for a program doesn't have to exist. It really doesn't! You're lucky that it does for GKnot and AutoGK.
3) Support for GKnot and AutoGK has existed thus far without your criticism. We are able, in this forum community, to help further the development of the programs by learning, and offering critiques and suggestions. There is a fundamentally huge difference between the following statements:

Sucky statement: "I'm dissapointed in the progress of AutoGK. You don't understand how much I hate MP3, and I'd thought you have put in OGG support by now, it's been long enough!!!"

Non-sucky statment: "So, I've read the previous posts about needing matroska support in order to mux OGG into the movie, and I'd be willing to help beta test a new version that could do that"

The non-sucky statement shows that you have already looked into the problem ahead of time, and are willing to make a minimal investment in order to bring about something you want. The sucky statement is basically just you saying "Waaah!". No one really cares how much you hate MP3, and slinging around your disappointment just makes the people who give soooooooooo much time into making GK want to give up! After spending HOURS AND HOURS of my time making this program free of charge, the last thing I'd want to do is read about some kid's "disappointment" in my progress, to put it lightly. I'm sure you saw len0x post above - you quoted it, without actually addressing it, after all. Anyway, I would sincerely hope that you could fully explain your gratitude, without perhaps at the same time asserting your ability to continue to complain. (It comes across as really diluting your thanks, when that happens - not so much sincereity is apparent for statements like "I really appreciate your program but I hate MP3 and it's been a long time." You know?)

Originally posted by Maverick
Yes my comments arent constructive.

Well, that's easy! Don't make them! As an American, I do indeed hold the 1st Ammendment of our Constitution in highest regard. However, that does not mean that I wish to be constantly bombarded by everyone's opinion on everything. You will find this sentiment held by many others here. One of the reasons I like this forum is that they DON'T censor 'annoying' or 'controversial' people or postings, as long as they abide by the rules they agreed to upon membership. This is why you 'get' to "continue to complain". Regardless, I beg you to stop.

It's just like talking in a relationship. If you have criticism that isn't constructive, then it's not helpful. It does NO good. Keep it to yourself if you're unable to produce constructive comments. Otherwise, it's "I think this, I think that, I hate MP3,", etc. No one wants to know the inane ramblings of Miscellaneous Internet Guy #345,298. No, really.

Originally posted by Maverick
It's not my place to say, but I say it anyway, throughout releasing products for *Public* consumption you will recieve criticism. I am just suprised you have not recieved more.

1) Um... if you really believe that it's not your place to say it.... THEN DON'T SAY IT? Right? Obviously you DO believe it's your place to say, since you do.

2) The fact that you are surprised that it has not received more criticism should be the giant, ringing, strobing alarm that indicates that, just perhaps, initial reasoning was faulty. I'm sure we'd all agree that there's been TONS of suggestions, comments, critiques, bug alerts, etc., regarding GK. I've made many myself! But those are things that can be made in a neutral way.

A criticism is a negative presentation of evaluation. And again, we're back to the free pies (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7770&highlight=free+pies) which I must continue to assume that you have not read. If you read it and understood it, you would understand the danger in your postings.

Danger? Sure. I will be blantently honest now. I will pretend no longer. You see, I am a leech. I have gotten a program from Doom9 and len0x that I have used thousands of times, and never had to pay for either the program or community support. In this world, I have found a free lunch. (This will start to make sense in light of "free pies", when you read it).

Now, people, such as yourself, come along and complain and criticize the massive amount of work that Doom9 and len0x do for free. Remember, they complain and criticize instead of of being helpful and getting into the problem and offering ideas and suggestions and solutions. len0x may log in, and after spending 10 hours over his weekend working on GK see a post from a whiner, who complains about how much he hates MP3 and how long he's waited and how disappointed he is with GK despite the fact that he's never tried to help make it a better program.

Well, just about the only 'nice' thing len0x gets for all his time and effort is our gratitude, and when that is replaced by incessent whining, he may make the decision that his effort is no longer worth the pittance he receives in return. So, because we hate censorship, the forum permits you to whine even though you may kill the benefits the rest of us are receiving with your whining. This is the ultimate price of any system with free communication - that it can damage itself. This is how, as an American, I can talk trash about George Bush. Or you could piss len0x off so much that he's never to be heard of again. You believe that he has to endure criticism because he's released his program to the public? Well, never releasing it again would fix that problem, wouldn't it? That's the danger in your complaining. Again, it's like a relationship. If all you do is complain while never trying to help, or learn, or fix things, the other person will eventually leave. I think there are those on here that would hunt you down for sport if that were to happen! :D

If you don't think it's your place to say? Then don't.
If your criticism isn't constructive? Keep it to yourself.
You can't understand why this doesn't happen more often? Then attempt to learn why, for there is a reason.

I wholly encourage you to enter into discussion. (Complaining isn't discussion. It's juvenille.) I encourage you to turn this into a 'win/win' situation, and actively help get additional audio codec support into GK.

At the minimum, give len0x the props he deserves (without it being surrounded by more complaints). After all - something for nothing? You can't beat that with a stick.

[colordog]

Of course, when I say "Doom9", I mean "Doom9/TheWEF".
:)

[Joe Fenton]

When you say "I hate MP3," and "your program only supports MP3," you are inferring "I hate your program." This is not the sort of feedback that endears you to developers.

"I prefer OGG or AAC," is much better than "I hate MP3." Positive statements rather than negative ones. Authors will often take positive responses into consideration when deciding on the priority of things on their to-do list. I certainly do. When someone tells me that a certain feature should be added to my program because the current one sucks, I move it to the BOTTOM of the list. It's my way of saying "thank you."
;)

[bilu]

Originally posted by Maverick
Yes my comments arent constructive, but I have however backpedaled in my opinion.You are creating a great program.Perhaps you have not realised however how much I hate MP3, or how much I love Vanilla GK.
You obviously do not take even lighter criticism than what I have stated easily. It's not my place to say, but I say it anyway, throughout releasing products for *Public* consumption you will recieve criticism. I am just suprised you have not recieved more. All the answers can come from your own words. You love Gordian Knot. And you're criticizing AutoGK for not being Gordian Knot.

But you haven't realized it isn't supposed to be the same.
AutoGK is a more automated (meaning less options) version of GKnot, sort of speak. And if you do like the options, then you already have a product you like - Gordian Knot. Stick with it. :)


Bilu

[r6d2]

@Maverick,

You must be happy I guess. You got plenty of criticism and free speech back on you. :D:D:D

On the public/private issue you mention, try going to a free public concert and start yelling to the band you don't like the sound they produce while everybody else is quite happy and enjoying the show.

Chances are you'll get your butt kicked by fans too, not for your personal taste in music, which may be indeed superb, but for bad manners and complete lack of sense of opportunity.

[dragongodz]

"an unprovoked diatribe."
jggimi- diatribe ? isnt that the result of too much curry ? :D

"don't you dare tell me about "big deal"."
len0x - never truer words said. i stopped counting a long time ago the amount of "why dont you add" and "that shouldnt be hard" requests from non programmers. my standard response has become"well theres the source code, you want to add that then go right ahead.". when they reply "but i dont know how, i am not a programmer." all you have to say is "exactly.". if they dont get it after that they are a lost cause. :)

[bilu]

About Windows Media: any of you checked the news in www.doom9.org today?

Yet another new DVD format: FVD, this one just for Taiwan, based on WMV9 and WMA9. Everything gets called a format these days :rolleyes:


Bilu

[Doom9]

that's off topic but maybe we could call XviD with AC3 audio in an AVI XVD, XviD Video Disc. To my eyes, XVD would be superior to EVD and FVD because it uses better codecs. Okay, perhaps we could do more efficient multichannel compression but AC3 is widely supported unlike the audio formats on EVD and FVD and it doesn't sound so bad, now does it? Or perhaps I should call it D9VD, for Doom9 Video Disc.

[len0x]

Originally posted by Doom9
Or perhaps I should call it D9VD, for Doom9 Video Disc.

nice one :)

[bilu]

Originally posted by len0x
nice one :) "nice one", eh ? :devil:
Let me be the first one to nag you about AC3 support in AutoGK! :D
Oh wait... it's done :eek:

Bilu

[Wolfman]

Well for me AutoGK does a damn fine job .. High quality sound, Subtitles ..great! (fast show/jazz club ref.) I was going to go out and try to figure out GK..Now I dont have too. I will just wait for xvid profiles/levels to be fully supported (ARTs1 thru ARTS4) . and two audio streams. I can even add a second audio stream myself with vdub if necessary.
:)

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by Doom9
that's off topic but maybe we could call XviD with AC3 audio in an AVI XVD, XviD Video Disc. To my eyes, XVD would be superior to EVD and FVD because it uses better codecs. Okay, perhaps we could do more efficient multichannel compression but AC3 is widely supported unlike the audio formats on EVD and FVD and it doesn't sound so bad, now does it? Or perhaps I should call it D9VD, for Doom9 Video Disc.

XVD???

too late my dear :D

http://www.bhacorp.com/products/xvdplus/plus.html