Hi8+Capture or Digital8?

[r6d2]

Hi guys,

New to the DV arena. I have a bunch of Video8 family tapes I need to convert to DVD. Some Sony Digital8 cameras allow you to read analog 8/Hi8 tapes and send them to the PC by USB/FW.

I need to buy a camera and I wonder if I should go with a regular Hi8+capture card or straight to Digital8. The price tag difference between Hi8 and Digital8 is by far higher than the price of a good capture card.

Why would you recommend going to Digital8 in this scenario?

Are there any noticeable quality differences in Digital8 over Hi8 for new material? Resolution? Color quality?

I wonder if I just would be better with the Hi8+Capture for a couple of years and then but a straight MiniDV camera.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Kika]

The advantage of D8 over Hi8:

The Bandwith (and as a result, the Resolution) of D8 is a bit higher.
The D8-Picture is more stable.
D8 has less Noise because of the integrated TBC.


Oh, and by the way: I'm still using my Hi8-Camcorder. I'm waiting for a good 3-Chip-DV-Camcorder for a good(!) price.

[r6d2]

Thanks for the info, Kika.
Originally posted by Kika
The Bandwith (and as a result, the Resolution) of D8 is a bit higher.
I figured. But when output is DVD, those extra lines don't really count much, do they? I'm constrained to 480 lines (less 10% total horizontal overscan).
Oh, and by the way: I'm still using my Hi8-Camcorder. I'm waiting for a good 3-Chip-DV-Camcorder for a good(!) price.
A friend of mine offered to lend me his Hi8 to do the encoding of old material and he suggests me to go digital right now.

The suggests the JVC GR-DV33, but I cannot even find the specs in JVC's site! Cnet does not even review current JVC cameras. Should I just go for a Sony or Canon MiniDV?

What are those 3 chip things? Not available yet or too expensive? Do they make a difference?

[mustardman]

@r6d2

My personal advise is to go for a capture card + Hi8 (camera or deck - which I assume you already have) for getting your stuff to digital. I suggest that because then you can capture any analog source you desire in the future, you are not constrained to Hi8 only (although some cameras can take analog in and convert to DV directly).

As far as D8 and MiniDV goes, Sony originally only sold D8 (on a consumer level) and now (about time) they have also started selling MiniDV cameras as well.

Quite some time ago, they tried the same thing : remember VHS versus BetaMax? JVC 'invented' VHS, sony 'invented' Beta. Sony wouldn't allow anyone else rights to make equipment. JVC would. Guess who lost?

And again with MiniDisc - a good format, but only available through sony. I am surprised (and disappointed) that it never took off.

Will the same thing happen with D8? I don't know. But personally, I would go for MiniDV - it seems way more popular.


On the camera side, I would NOT purchase a JVC! Their customer support sux, and the camera (for an expensive model) was very disappointing.

Make a list of what you need, what you want, and what you would like, and then buy. The 3 CCD cameras are superior, but so it their price tag!

[r6d2]

Originally posted by mustardman
My personal advise is to go for a capture card + Hi8 (camera or deck - which I assume you already have) for getting your stuff to digital.
I'm quite convinced already. ;) I understand there is a quantum leap to MiniDV, but the price tag is still too high for my reduced budget.
remember VHS versus BetaMax? [...] Guess who lost?
Yes, I remember that story. Too bad, since Beta was (AFAIK) higher quality and smaller size.
Will the same thing happen with D8? I don't know. But personally, I would go for MiniDV - it seems way more popular.
The wise thing to do seems to go Hi8 now and wait for the 3 CCD stuff to get reasonable prices, like Kika and you point out.

I'll try to get a good capture card, perhaps with CATV input too.
On the camera side, I would NOT purchase a JVC! Their customer support sux, and the camera (for an expensive model) was very disappointing.
Well, Sony is Sony. My first (and only) camcorder was a CCD-TR45. I got it in 1991. If it wouldn't have been robbed, it would still be with me. My living room TV is a Sony Trinitron built in 1978. Would you believe that? Image is still crisp and bright.

Thanks a lot for your help.

[mustardman]

Well, Sony is Sony. My first (and only) camcorder was a CCD-TR45. I got it in 1991. If it wouldn't have been robbed, it would still be with me. My living room TV is a Sony Trinitron built in 1978. Would you believe that? Image is still crisp and bright.
Yeah - Sony do make (really) good stuff. I just wish they would allow a few manufacturers in, then their formats may become more accepted. I think perhaps the "memory stick" is destined for the same.

But on a bright note : a friend and I compared my JVC DV with his Sony Hi8, and we both agree that the Hi8 gave a superior picture. Not that my JVC was much chop - I've now given it the flick. Good move, stick with what you have, I don't think you can really go wrong!

[bb]

You should be aware of the fact that there is no difference between Digital8 and miniDV except for the cassette format. Both types of camcorders record in the standardized DV format; there's absolutely no difference in the DV stream.

Sony introduced D8 as a bridge to the digital world for their Hi8 customers. Digital8 cams can use both, the analogue Hi8, and the DV format Digital8. They can convert Hi8 to DV internally, which means that you simply insert a Hi8 cassette and capture the DV stream through firewire (i-Link :rolleyes: because Sony always need a name of their own). This is of course very convenient, and my video I converted this way resulted in good quality.

So I'd rather say the easiest way to convert Hi8 to a digital format is through a Digital8 camcorder. If you want to convert it by analogue capture, you might have to struggle with more problems.

bb

[r6d2]

Originally posted by bb
Both types of camcorders record in the standardized DV format; there's absolutely no difference in the DV stream.
Thanks. I was not aware of that.
Digital8 cams can use both, the analogue Hi8, and the DV format Digital8.
I also though that, but unfortunately, not all D8 camcorders read 8mm analog tapes. The TRV-250, for instance, does not. The TRV-351 does, but is quite more expensive.
If you want to convert it by analogue capture, you might have to struggle with more problems.
I know, but with the help of this forum I expect to be able to deal with them. ;)

[Kika]

I have tried the Hi8-Conversion by a D8-Camcorder a couple of Months ago. What you will get is nearly the same Quality a D8-Camcorder provides. On Video8 (8mm) Source, the Picture was a kind of "smeared".
I have also tried to get the same Quality by using my Capture-Card instead of the D8-Camcorder (was a borowed one). It is possible to do that, but you need a lot of Filtering and a lot of trails to find the best Filters and Settings (i use a Combination of DNR and Convolution3D).

Like bb wrote: "If you want to convert it by analogue capture, you might have to struggle with more problems."

The Reason, why i'm still using my Hi8 and my Capture-Card..., i wrote it in my fist answer here: I'm saving my Monney for a real, REAL good Camcorder. ;)

[baz00ie]

Here's what you do.....

Rent or borrow a Digital-8 camcorder/deck. Convert, thru Firewire, all your 8mm/Hi8 tapes to DV codec and rip to DVD.

Next sell your old 8mm/Hi8 camera and then buy a brand new MiniDV camcorder.

be happy... :)

ps. once you have the video in DV format, you can also re-master it back to MiniDV tape - you'll have many more options to delight and confuse you. :)

Take care
baz

[r6d2]

I'm about to make my mind. There's a new Samsung model, the SCD24 (http://www.samsung.com/Products/Camcorder/Mini_DV/Camcorder_Mini_DV_SCD24_sp.htm).

Price is good too.

[mustardman]

there is no difference between Digital8 and miniDV except for the cassette formatGood point bb, I didn't know that - but when you think about it, it's pretty obvious!

As we are talking of converting to DV (whether it be MiniDV or Digital8) and recording the result to tape, I must question the quality of MiniDV tapes themselves.

I have tried many different brands, expensive and cheap, and they all seem to have occasional dropouts (where the picture staggers or becomes "striped" briefly).

I am not talking dramatic things here, only about once or twice per 60 minutes of tape (SP mode ONLY thank you!) for less than a second. But, I don't think that is good enough.

Analog tapes have dropouts too - but their effects are (usually) much less disturbing.

What is other peoples' experiences?

[r6d2]

Guys, I'm embarrased. :o

I bought the Samsung SCD24.

The store clerk told me that I'd be able to transfer DV to my PC using the USB port (I told him I don't have Firewire and that I don't want to buy one). However, the camera only support USB 1.1, and it only allows transfer photos or short clips from the Memory Stick card.

USB 2.0 is able to outspeed Firewire, but this camera does not support it!

Is there any solution to this or should I just return the unit?

[b00zed]

While USB2.0 supports isochronous (http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=isochronous) transfer, ie that which firewire uses when transferring DV directly from the camera, the support isn't brilliant, and despite the requirement of isochronous transfer in time critical applications, USB2.0 can't handle it properly ("At its highest speed USB competes directly with FireWire (except in the areas of digital camcorders, USB has techonological limitations that prevent it from being viable in this area)." (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus))

Unfortunately you're not going to find a DV camera that uses USB for capture purposes.

Nice work on the store clerk's part. Time to go and whip them :D

[bb]

Originally posted by r6d2
I bought the Samsung SCD24.
Congratulations :)

The store clerk told me that I'd be able to transfer DV to my PC using the USB port (I told him I don't have Firewire and that I don't want to buy one). However, the camera only support USB 1.1, and it only allows transfer photos or short clips from the Memory Stick card.
This is true for every camcorder I know of. The clerk lied (or let's assume he just didn't know it, but the he shouldn't do this job).

USB 2.0 is able to outspeed Firewire, but this camera does not support it!
Forget about USB for video. Go and get a cheap firewire card.

Is there any solution to this or should I just return the unit?
You'll have the same problem with other camcorders, too. You need firewire.

bb

[mustardman]

Yes - you will need firewire (IEE1394). USB just won't cut it, I didn't know the technical reason (now I do thanks to b00zed :))

If you can afford a camera, you can afford an IEE1394 card. A cheap one in Australia is about $40 or less, so I would imagine in the US they would be considerably better priced!

Take the camera back, and let that clerk have a piece of your mind ... that's just blatent crap, even a dumb clerk should know (or have been told) better!

[r6d2]

Originally posted by bb
The clerk lied (or let's assume he just didn't know it, but the he shouldn't do this job).
I've learnt in the course of my life that even the most bizarre human actions and attitudes can be far better justified by ignorance, incompetence or stupidity, rather than bad intentions or malice.

This seems to be a clear case of that.

The funny thing is I first asked for a cheaper (and slightly older) model, the SCD67, and he suggested the SCD24 instead (don't be mislead by smaller product numbering). In fact, the SCD24 is so new that the datasheets are dated Dec.2003.

He said, literally, that with the SCD24 I'd not need to buy a Firewire adapter, because it included USB. I asked what the difference was between the two with regards to video, and he remarked "only speed, USB is a little slower".

But the most funny thing is that the camera is so good that I don't want to return it! I taped my kid's graduation yesterday, watched it on the TV later and it look so, so cool! The image stabilizator really works! Also, image is much crisper and brighter than my old 8mm camcorder...

It even has a remote control and infrared light for recording at 0 lux. I just cannot believe what I saw. Maybe I should just buy the firewire, like some of you say.

The alternative is to return it and buy a Hi8.

Thanks for all your help, guys, I really appreciate it.

[Kika]

In fact, you can use USB 2 for transfering the Videos to your PC - but only with quarter Resolution (360x240 in NTSC).

Actually there is absolutly no DV- or D8-Camcorder with USB for transfering the Videos at full Resolution.

[bb]

Originally posted by r6d2
The alternative is to return it and buy a Hi8.
That's not an alternative, believe me ;)

bb

[Kalicrys]

Originally posted by r6d2
But the most funny thing is that the camera is so good that I don't want to return it! I taped my kid's graduation yesterday, watched it on the TV later and it look so, so cool! The image stabilizator really works! Also, image is much crisper and brighter than my old 8mm camcorder...

Yup, I felt the same way when I got my DV cam. But you really want to get a model that supports firewire. Even an analogue TV signal looks good if it goes directly to DV, esp. compared to an analogue capture of something that has gone through VHS or Hi8. Oh, and aren't those tiny 6mm MiniDV cassettes so cute? If only you could tape two hours on it.

Originally posted by mustardman
I think perhaps the "memory stick" is destined for the same.
Samsung's in on the memory stick idea now. This one might stick. (sorry for the pun)

[r6d2]

Originally posted by bb
That's not an alternative, believe me ;)
I got a FW adapter ;)

[chipvideo]

Go with the sony trv350. I have it an I like the fact that I can convert my 40 hi8 tapes to digital format without losing any frames and more importantly no audio/video synch issues. I had originally purched the AIW8500 video card to do captures and they are horrible compared to using the digital8 camcorder passthrough. SO now my capture card just collects dust. They are worthless in my opinion. Pass through is also avaible on the sony TRV350. You can capture all your favorite programs on tv strait to digital format without a single loss of frames.

[chipvideo]

I also forgot to add that the tapes you record to digital8 can be just the plain old HI8 tapes. Much cheaper than the other digital format of tapes. Paid $14 for a 8 pack of maxell tapes recomended for digital8 camcorders.

[r6d2]

Getting a Sony TRV351, available where I live, would have been ideal. However, Sony equipment is 70% more expensive here than in the US, and I have no plans to go there in the near future.

Samsung, OTOH, has exactly the same price here.

I friend of mine has one of those Sony models. I'll try to borrow it from him to do the convertions.

Thanks for the advice, chipvideo.

[mustardman]

Perhaps you should run some tests... (edit: oops, just read you bought an adapter, but I would still test it!)

If (as we all suspect) that you can't capture full res over USB, and you really want to keep the camera, then you will either
1.Have to put up with analog capture from the composite (or S-video) output. There is a loss of quality, but it is not huge (at least not like copying to VHS!).
2.Borrow a camera (or deck) with firewire capabilities whenever you want to do some high quality editing.

I also recomend keeping all your originals - I know a lot of people who insist on copying their original (to VHS usually) and then re-using the tape "to save money". How shortsighted is that! If you pay $5 for a 4 hour VHS tape, thats quality!!! Even if you pay $20 for a S-VHS tape, there is still going to be loss. DV and HI8 tapes are only about $10-$20. If you can afford a $1000 camera, surely you can afford a few lousy tapes!
(OK, I'll climb down from my soapbox now...)

[b00zed]

Originally posted by mustardman
I also recomend keeping all your originals - I know a lot of people who insist on copying their original (to VHS usually) and then re-using the tape "to save money". How shortsighted is that! If you pay $5 for a 4 hour VHS tape, thats quality!!! Even if you pay $20 for a S-VHS tape, there is still going to be loss. DV and HI8 tapes are only about $10-$20. If you can afford a $1000 camera, surely you can afford a few lousy tapes!
(OK, I'll climb down from my soapbox now...)

Also consider the fact that they're still cheaper per byte than the best value HDDs (around 120-160GB as I write this) have to offer at the moment; ~AU$0.75/GB vs ~AU$1.30/GB... (notwithstanding any compression arguments :D)

[r6d2]

Guys, just needed to share this with you:

Santa left something on my chimney in advance: a Canon LV-S2 projector.

It's amazing. True flat-screen ;), reads PC output, S-Video, autodetects source, etc. My wife and I watched a 007 movie last night and it is absolutely great.

Now looking for a good set of speakers for my birthday. :)

[bb]

Originally posted by r6d2
Santa left something on my chimney in advance: a Canon LV-S2 projector.
Congratulations! I'm afraid I'll get nothing but the rod this year...

bb

[Mug Funky]

the camera i'm aiming for ATM is an old model sony. circa 1998.

sony TRV 900e.

3 chip, progressive mode (some broadcast type people say that's sacrilege, but considering how much broadcast stuff gets dupe-deinterlaced anyway, i can suffer it)

it's DV, and if you're only capturing it's DEFINITELY overkill, but the picture is superb and the price has been dropping for a long time now (it competes with new 1/8" single chip DV cams these days for price, and there's absolutely no contest).

see if you can ifnd one second hand... you'll need 1394 for it, but those cards are cheaper than the cable these days (literally... i lost my cable and a replacement cost more than the card which included it)