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k2
21st October 2003, 21:49
I want to collect everyones experience with how long a DVDR lasts.
I will post the results for all to use.

Please post a reply - tell me your good as well as your bad.

Brand name:
Mfg:
burn speed:
date recorded:
date last tested good:
date failed to read:

pmc
23rd October 2003, 00:27
Brand name: Fortis DVD-R
Manufacturer: Auvistar
Manufacturer ID = 41 75 76 69 73 74 00 00 FFFFFFA4 FFFFFFFA 12 00
Smart-Burn Speed Limit = Wrt(2.0X),Rd(4.0X)
date recorded: 3/27/2003
date last tested good:
date failed to read: 10/23/2003

This is just one example of the Fortis that have failed on me

---

Brand name: Princo 4xDVD-R
Manufacturer: Princo Corporation
Manufacturer ID = 50 52 49 4E 43 4F 00 00 64 00 00 00
Smart-Burn Speed Limit = Wrt(4.0X),Rd(4.0X)
date recorded: 9/14/2003
date last tested good: Worked fine a couple of weeks after
date failed to read: 23/10/2003 stoped working today, get read error on both burner and Liteon Combo.

k2
24th October 2003, 04:58
Thanks for the info

I have several bad Princo discs my self.
I am checking the dates created.

atreides93
13th November 2003, 23:04
I made this thread a sticky one. It may be interesting/useful to collect some data from everyone.

Its a good thing that when you look at the VOB files on a disk, they have dates on them showing when you created them..so it gives you a good guess as to when you burned that disk.
(in case you didn't write the date on the disk)

Espen
12th February 2004, 21:15
I burnt a coupel of prodisc over a year ago. Most of them have playback errors or don't even work today!

atreides93
17th February 2004, 18:06
Could you use DVDDecryptor or Nero CD SPeed to tell us what the media info is for that disk?

Espen
17th February 2004, 23:08
Originally posted by atreides93
Could you use DVDDecryptor or Nero CD SPeed to tell us what the media info is for that disk?

Well the Media ID Code is PRODISC R01 if that what you ask for?

k2
14th March 2004, 21:53
Well I am closing this short. Simply not enough activity in this forum to get a broad base of information.

I have written a summary report of what I do have.

Report HERE (http://smtguru.com/result.htm)

The charts inside are also worth a quick view.

TDK was not in the data.
Ritek G03 are the best
Princo are the worst

Life can be as short as few weeks or as long a few years.

pmc
23rd March 2004, 02:43
Im not sure anymore if Princo and Fortis are degrading over time as much as I though when I did my first post in this thread. The reason for this is that ive noticed that labels have a big impact on reading quality. Ive done some testings by actually removing labels on older DVDs that I had problems with and in all cases so far I could actually read the discs again after I removed the labels.

Have any of you noticed this ? if not then remove the label on the disc you have read errors on and se if you can actually read it again without the label. I have also done some testings and it seems that different brand of labels causes more problems then others.

zande
27th March 2004, 00:32
Interesting thread!

Though I might share some of my experiences as well.

I burnt 20 "Prico 4X DVD-R (white top)" in the period between June and July 2003.
The recorder is a Pioneer DVR-105, full speed (4x) for all discs, firmware 1.33.

Funny enough, all of them still reads perfect today in my PC. Nero CD/DVD-speed shows a straight curve with no speed downs during read.

Putting these in my Philips DVD-722 give tiny problems. The picture might get small amounts of macroblocks now and then, but it's not a big problem. Happens let's say about 2-3 times for a full-lenght movie, so it isn't that bad.

After I went out of Princo's and been reading this forum (thanks), I bough myself 25 pcs of Ritek G03 (branded as 3T Pro), and burned them at 2x.
All of them read perfect on my PC AND Philips as well.

Next up was 25 pcs of Mitsubishi's (Mediacode: MCC00RG200).
Same thing goes here. I get perfect reads on both PC and set top.

Then I gave Ritek G04 a try. 50 pcs without a single coaster!


Conclusion: I'm a very lucky guy! :)
120 DVD-R's burnt since i got my Pioneer 9 month's ago. Not a single coaster with the 4 different brands of media I've tried.
No corrupted discs or read problems (exept for some tiny macroblocks on the Princos on the set top).
Keep in mind that my Philips is not a "miracle" player. It have spitted out a few discs my friends have burned on cheap media.

Oh, don't know if it plays an important role, but I keep ALL my DVD-R's in those real DVD covers (black plastic thingys), away from sunlight, and a temperature of 25 Celcius.
No labels and no writing with pens on the top side!

Kind Regards / Zande

Hells Delight
26th April 2004, 01:08
Hello!

What's your suggestions about Platinum DVD+-R Medias?
Anyone tried?

Is there any Quality Difference between DVD+R and DVD-R, except the DVD-Player compatibility? Maybe DVD+R are better for Data Backups?

k2
28th April 2004, 00:07
DVD+R may take over in the long run but DVD-R have the largest installed base and usage today. Your choice is more academic than anything. As long as you can play it on your stand alone DVD player, does it matter. Future DVD players will read both formats.

It's hard to say if DVD+R or DVD-R is more long term reliable. I will have to stay with my assumptions. As the products improve over time so will the reliability, unless it is Obsoleted, then jump quickly. The actual manufacturer process control is a greater factor than the technology.

On technology alone, DVD+R is better.

I have not tried the Platinum DVDR's.

Zavo
2nd May 2004, 15:54
Could you suggest a program for testing DVD's? Just if they are still completely readeable or not, for the purpose of your data collection.
I've got TEAC as dvd writer, so forget about kprobe...
Stomp RecordNowMax has got in the "Disc Explorere And Drive Properties" the feature "Data Extraction Speed Test"...maybe enough for the verifing purpose?

Tnx

atreides93
19th August 2004, 08:54
A common approach if you can't use kprobe is to use cd speed. it has a nice data transfer test, that can give you an idea of how good your dvd is doing.

Anyway, I recently came across a bad dvd-r. Its a double sided Ritek G03 that I burned august 31, 2002 so its nearly 2 years old. Only one side can even start playing on my dvd players. The other side is not readable anymore. On top of that, the readable side doesn't play beyond 2 or 3 gigs...

so basicaly its ruined.
I had it stored in a cd-wallet type case...I rarely used that wallet, it holds up to 96 cd's. I recently watched some single sided dvd-r's from that same case, and they were fine.

That really scares me...I'm not going to be using any more double sides disks if they don't last 2 years.

mordant
8th February 2005, 06:32
I have started noticing DVD-R's I burnt awhile back can not be re-ripped as I get CIRC Unrecoverd Errors.

What software will tell me the brand info on burned dvd-r's? I've got DVDdecrypter and can find the info on a blank DVD-R, but I don't see it on one already burned. I'd like to go through my discs and record which still work and which no longer do, so I can avoid buying that media in future. In general I buy DVD-Rs that are blank on top so there is no printed info on the disc itself.

Thanks.

Eron
31st July 2005, 08:26
It would be wise to be able to indicate if at the time you used data verification.

Because with cheap media, if you are not using verification then it could be bad right from the get go..

BassPig
2nd October 2006, 08:57
I have noticed a sudden burst of messages on a private mailing list for VX2000 video camera users about disc failures this month. It seems that a variety of DVD media are being discovered unreadable. Users are posting that several discs have become unreadable--even on the burners that wrote them.
Maxell was mentioned as one of the major brands that had some discs fail to read, but there were a bunch of 'economy' brands that subsequent posters listed.
The problem seems somewhat widespread and has a few people concerned. And all of these discs were readable when first burned.
One user brought up possible legal repercussions that might result from customers' wedding DVDs going bad after 3 years. And that seems to be a frequently-mentioned number.
Needless to say, I think this study is a good idea and may help to determine whether this problem is confined to certain brands and manufacture runs, or whether the entire DVD recordable world is about to be rocked with a flood of unreadable discs..

Ghitulescu
9th June 2009, 09:08
I have noticed a sudden burst of messages on a private mailing list for VX2000 video camera users about disc failures this month. It seems that a variety of DVD media are being discovered unreadable. Users are posting that several discs have become unreadable--even on the burners that wrote them.
Maxell was mentioned as one of the major brands that had some discs fail to read, but there were a bunch of 'economy' brands that subsequent posters listed.
The problem seems somewhat widespread and has a few people concerned. And all of these discs were readable when first burned.
One user brought up possible legal repercussions that might result from customers' wedding DVDs going bad after 3 years. And that seems to be a frequently-mentioned number.
Needless to say, I think this study is a good idea and may help to determine whether this problem is confined to certain brands and manufacture runs, or whether the entire DVD recordable world is about to be rocked with a flood of unreadable discs..

I don't even remember the times when Maxell manufactured its own DVDs. For about 5 years Maxell relabels Riteks. At least here in Germany.

gizzin
10th June 2009, 09:14
Ya, I don't remember exactly when I burned them (Probably like 5 - 7 years ago). I burned them with a pioneer 104d. I've hadn't have any fail entirely, but some ritek g03,g04 have problems with freezing, and playback problems towards the end. Also some yudens have been freezing...

BassPig
26th February 2010, 09:11
I got burned this week on the DVD-R goes bad arena.

This was a pair of silver inkjet printable DVD-R from Meritline that I must have bought about 4 years ago. It was their generic brand, which have a slight purple color to the dye.

I burned UDF format, probably at 2 or 4X burn speed. Each disc was filled to capacity with audio files and verified readable after the burn then stored in jewel cases on the shelf in a climate-controlled studio.

Today, I tried to read two of these discs and the drive would not read them. I tried four different PCs and drives, including the one that wrote these two discs. Not one of them could read it. I just get a blank Explorer window in XP.

This has seriously shaken my trust in optical media now. Thankfully the data was not crucial to my business-it was personal files only.

I am currently trying to recover data with DVDisaster 0.72. It's reporting media ID of BeAll G40001.

Ghitulescu
26th February 2010, 09:58
Today, I tried to read two of these discs and the drive would not read them. I tried four different PCs and drives, including the one that wrote these two discs. Not one of them could read it. I just get a blank Explorer window in XP.

Get yourself an LG DVD Burner, the older the better (say 4040, or 4080, or 4120), then use Isobuster or isopuzzle and go on ... you'd probably get the most out of them.

BassPig
8th March 2010, 20:17
I tried three burners--including the burner that wrote the discs.

I finally ended up using a program "DVD Disaster" to attempt recovery. It took 49 hours and over half the disc was bad sectors. It created in ISO file, which I burned to a new DVD. That DVD contained now files, but only opened a blank Explorer window. So I guess there's no point in trying to extract data.

I am noticing that a whole batch of Verbatim and TDK DVD-R that I have are about a year old, sitting on the shelf, and burn speeds have deteriorated. These discs used to burn close to 16X actual speed in Nero. Now they are down to anywhere from 3.7X to 6.8X writing fresh data. So it appears that media is going back sitting in its original cakeboxes on the shelf.


All of this had me going to bed thinking about a more permanent solution to this... after pondering hard drives and tape backup, I got an idea about a new DVD burner design..

My concept would eliminate the dye entirely. If blank discs contained just an aluminum layer, perhaps with a coating on it that enables it to dissolve under intense writing power, a more powerful laser could burn real pits into the aluminum layer, thereby making a disc as good as a glass mastered disc.
Of course the challenge would be in cooling a laser of that power level, but I can conceive of this technology being viable in five years.

mariush
8th March 2010, 22:38
Why bother? It's like trying to invent a floppy disc or a better CD-ROM drive.

In a couple of years maximum, flash memory will be so cheap, you'd be able to get 16 GB memory cards for the price of a few DVDs. Then just copy the content of a dvd twice, make some PAR2 recovery volumes and you're all set. And maybe copy to system once every 6 months and write data again to card to refresh it in case it bitrots.

I can already buy 2 GB micro-sd cards at around 7$, or the price of 8 DVDs, and a 4GB card at 10$.

I'd say actually the problem is that when designing a medium, engineers should allocate more on recovery error and make the whole write/read error use it in hardware better - it wouldn't have hurt much if a 4.38 GB DVD had only 4 GB of actual data.

CWR03
9th March 2010, 00:48
Hard drives are already so cheap that I'm considering buying a half-dozen 1 or 1.5 TB hard drives and hot-swap drive enclosures to eliminate disks completely for storage. Good disks are about $30 US per 100, a 1 TB drive on sale can be had for $60. Adding $20 for a 5 1/4" bay enclosure with removable tray and the cost per TB of storage is a tad cheaper than with disks, and then instead of over 200 disks you have one small, transferrable unit.

BassPig
10th March 2010, 02:57
The idea is to create truly long-lasting media, to fulfill the promise that optical media manufacturers made, whose claims of 70-200-year lifespan for recordable media convinced some of us to believe in.

I don't like mechanical storage, because a hard drive can fail while in storage, from stiction or expired/dried out capacitors. It can also suffer ESD damage.

The same goes for memory sticks. I can't tell you how many times I lost an entire memory stick of camera photos while transferring it to my SmartMedia reader, only to find the reader and the OS reporting that the media needs formatting and my data was somehow wiped in the process of unplugging it from the camera slot and inserting in the reader slot.

I think it's not unlikely that a DVD burner could be developed that could write by actually melting pits in the aluminum layer. It would be necessarily single-layer, but the discs would never fade away unless they were exposed to intense heat, corrosive chemicals or kinetic forces sufficient to shatter the polycarbonate platter. It should be just as long-lasting as a glass mastered disc.

This really is a growing concern as I shoot 16GB of XDCam footage per day on average and long-term archival is a serious problem right now. Presently, we have a network of about 13 computers, each with a couple terabytes of storage and we distribute at least 3 copies of all new footage across the network while the project is in the editing/production phase. Once completed, we make a backup archive on dual layer DVD-R media and keep one copy on a USB 1TB external drive. But this is an unsustainable solution, as the growth of data exceeds the availability of storage capacity. We keep adding more 1TB drives to these computers, but once there are no more slots and no more controller ports left on any of the PCs, then we're forced to dump older material. Given my experiences with these two DVD-R single layer discs from Samsung/Meritline, my trust in long term storage via optical is severely shaken.

mariush
10th March 2010, 13:52
Did you look into tape drives?

A 400GB HP Ultrium tape writer is 1500$ and cartridges are about 50$ for 800 GB / 1.6 TB compressed (though it looks like you have to buy sets of 20 tapes)....

Now I don't know about the life of the tapes but I assume it's much higher than a DVD's, as they're inside plastic cases... (I guess assuming you'll keep them in a controlled environment)

...

I think such discs as you say don't exist probably because those pitches in the aluminium would cause the disc to vibrate a lot at the speeds inside a unit - a disc is spinned inside at several thousand rotations per minute so even a scratched disc in theory can expand scratches and vibrate itself to pieces...

BassPig
13th March 2010, 11:22
I gave tape drives consideration, but cost, lack of speed, lack of accessibility and dropouts/data loss are concerns, as is the cost.
Presently, we're amassing a large number of 1TB USB ext drives, but it's getting messy fast.

Re: the pits in aluminum, shouldn't be a problem burning these and certainly no worse balance than glass-mastered discs. The burning would not change the mass of the disc at all. It would more likely discolor the portion of aluminum being written with 0's, for instance. Mass of the aluminum would remain constant. Nothing being taken or added to the disc. Polycarbonate is pretty strong stuff. Have seen loads of badly-scratched DVDs play just fine and never shatter. It's not ceramic or quartz. The only applications I know of where scratches can be a fatal issue is on UHP lamps used in projectors because they operate at 200 atmospheres and 1900F and even a small scratch in the quartz will cause a strain that will shatter the bulb. No such problem with polycarbonate DVD discs.

Ghitulescu
14th March 2010, 15:24
The only LTS solution I'm aware of is the "recopy" method, now that one has digital data is easier as it were with analog items. Just COPY/PASTE from a support to another one.
It's the law of the nature that everything rots. Sooner or later.