legality issue

[alibegoa]

forum rules:

6) No warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content! Links to content of a questionable nature, asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated.


Correct me if I am wrong, but does not licence, which comes with every DVD we buy, strictly forbid any unauthorised copying which applies to "backup" copies as well.

So are not we all now "asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process " illigal content?

Unless of course we all are in a possession of written permissions of the publishers to do with their DVDs as we please.

And why do forum members copy DVDs?
Can I get honest answers?

[maa]

And why do forum members copy DVDs?
Well there are several answers to that.
One is to prevent a dissaster through damage.
Another is to remove all the crap that is so irritating when you load a DVD.
Yet another is to put a double disc on one to save changing.
Most countries allow a backup of any electronic data that you own due its frailty unlike books.

[alibegoa]

I do understand what you mean. Especially "the irritating stuff" bit.
And while most licences do allow backup copy of PC games and applications, that is clearly not the case with DVDs.
And if you put contents of two DVDs onto single one just for your convinience, well no licence is so badly written to allow you that.

I personally support DVD copying, but I hate hypocrisy so I do not understand what is forum rule no. 6 doing here.

[PC-GUY]

I think your beaten a dead horse.
Honestly, why do u make copies of DVD's (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46115&highlight=DVD+Copying+Laws)
Teen cleared in landmark DVD case (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42329&highlight=DVD+Copying+Laws)
I think N3m1515 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46115&perpage=20&highlight=DVD%20Copying%20Laws&pagenumber=3) said it best: "The greedy basta*d Co's use the excuse of 1% of dvd users pirating them to overcharge the rest. I am sick of it as I have had it since music cds came out.

Maybe EVERYONE should pirate them so THEY know how it feels to be ripped off severely..."
In fact in Honestly, why do u make copies of DVD's they went into it big time. Just my $.02.:)

[KpeX]

I personally support DVD copying, but I hate hypocrisy so I do not understand what is forum rule no. 6 doing here.
Personally that sounds like hypocrisy to me (supporting DVD copying but questioning its legality). If you disagree with what happens on this board, no one is forcing you to stay.

[hicks]

In Belgium, you have the RIGHT to copy any ORIGINAL DVD or ORIGINAL audio CD (no matter the source of the dvd or cd : a friend, a rental store, a media library) for your own personal use and for how much time you want. :cool:

[MackemX]

:.packs bags, on plane to Belguim: :)

so if I visit a friend in Belgium and backup a DVD then take it out the country what happens?

[hicks]

@MackemX

If you take it out of Belgium, i don't know. (I don't travel much with my backups :p ). But in Belgium (in France too), you can use it for your own personnal use : you can give it to your family.

If you understand French :

http://www.google.be/search?hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=copie+r%C3%A9serv%C3%A9e+%C3%A0+l%27usage+priv%C3%A9+du+copiste&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta=

[mpucoder]

Here's the best answer I can give, from a legal standpoint. In America there are two laws which are in conflict with each other. The older law specifically grants the owner of a legally obtained copyrighted work to make copies for personal use (among other rights, and this includes modified works such as compilations or excerpts), it is known as the "fair use doctrine" portion of copyright law. The DMCA appears to remove that right by making it illegal to circumvent CSS, but the DMCA also has a clause allowing fair use copying.
The biggest thing to remember, though, is that the law is still untested. There have been cases, but no decisions. And until a court rules on a law establishing precedent it is unclear whether the law can or will be upheld. It is also possible that the DMCA will end up in the Supreme Court, where it will be decided if it is constitutional.

Until then, the position here is that fair use copying is legal, and discussion is permitted. Works which would not pass the fair use test are not to be discussed. There is no doubt as to the illegality of downloaded movies and music.

And finally, what law governs the internet and, therefore, this forum?

[robguy]

Put dead-horse carcass here.

[alibegoa]

thanks mr. mpucoder for a comprehensive answer.

according to Mr. hicks, fair use in Belgium is to rent a DVD and copy it for your personal collection.

Is this considered a fair use in the old good USA?
Would I be prosecuted for doing this?

[maa]

I know thats a tricky one, I very much doubt it but on the other hand the industry makes standalone DVD recorders to replace VHS video recorders for home use. What are they for ?
You record films and shows from satilite, payTV, digital TV or whatever you like - no one questions that.
A DVD film (rented or not) gets different attention, probably for the same reason the music CD did compared to Cassette copying.
Of course piracy is a major problem but it always existed especially in the poorer countries. Now I think the industry gets its target wrong with normal home users and quoting statistics of million dollar losses due to private copying is not much different to saying if we banned the bicycle we'd sell more Mercedes
:D

[hicks]

@alibegoa : we have a small tax on recordable media (harddisk too) and recording hardware for this right.
p2p is of course illegal : you don't have the original, you upload to a lot of people (not only your family :p ).

edit : the tax is called 'auvibel'.
the official website : www.auvibel.be
another site (not official :o ) : www.ovibel.be :p

[spiderman2k1]

Just ask your self this is you have some DVD that will never be made again. Do you have the right to back them up? I would say yes. I have some anime DVD that I love and there no longer being made. Hollywood want to get around the fair use act. By putting encryption on the DVD's. There will be a day when DVD will be replaced with other format. And we will buy all our movies all over again. HD-DVD player's are coming out and alot of your DVD's you have now will take movie companies year to release these movie's again on another format. I live my life by what I think is right and not what some big company tell's me what right or not.

When Holly Wood say's back up software is wrong I say. Why you sell fake 16:9 movies that get encode in 4:3?

[Sectie.B]

I'm afraid hicks is a bit optimistic about what's legal here in Belgium. :(
It's only permitted to make backups/copies of music-cd's/dvd's you own (not the ones you rent) for use in your family-environment (friends not included). If we sell or give away the original, we have to destroy the original.

The tax we have to pay on blanc cd's/dvd's doesn't give us the right to make copies of everything. The tax is meant for authors as a sort of small compensation for missed income because of copying.

BTW: in Holland it is permitted to make copies of rented audio-cd's/dvd's for personal use.

But soon this will all be outdated, because we'll get our own version of the DMCA, in all European countries (as is already the case in Germany). It will be illegal to circumvent copy protections, which means it will be illegal to make digital copies of most cd's/dvd's. :mad: It probably will also become illegal to explain how copy protections can be removed/circumvented as will the creation of such tools be.

[mpucoder]

Yes, the laws and fair use vary from country to country. In many countries copying rented videos for personal use is legal, I don't think it is in the U.S.A., since you do not own the original.
In the forum we draw the line at what is illegal in all countries - downloaded or p2p traded. And the strikes go out to people who don't have the common sense to just ask their technical question without incriminating themselves, because what can incriminate them also can incriminate Doom9 for allowing or promoting the activity.

[mpucoder]

I love the EU wording of the DMCA equivalent. It makes it illegal to remove or circumvent "effective measures". My first defense would be that CSS is not an effective measure. It's easier to defeat CSS than it is to get the damn anti-theft stickers ("whisper tape") off the package just to watch the thing.

[Sectie.B]

Indead it is unclear what is meant by an "effective copy protection".

But the way this is going, the words "contains copy protection" on a disc or cover will probably suffice... (being a bit cynical) :rolleyes:

[jaagee]

This issue will continue until the laws pertaining to public domain and copyright infringement are made to be specifically clearer.

I have one for all of you to plunder over.

How is copying a DVD movie, mp3 song , or a VCR tape different than hitting the good 'ol record button on your old timey cassette recorder and recording ANY song you like right off your favorite radio station? :rolleyes: (Back in th 70's audio cassette recorders were marketed and sold specifically for this reason)

Or hitting the record button on your VCR and taping your favorite show you might have missed because you were not home to watch it when the show aired originally? :rolleyes: (When you replay your VCR Tape, does the commercials that air disappear? No! You can certainly FF through them but the companies who have paid to have their products promoted are copied also. And then the VCR manufacturer's, most have direct ties to the movie and record industry, came out with the feature that would allow you to skip right throught the commercials just by pressing a button. Didn't this feature circumvent the advertisements that companies paid for just so the industry could entice the consumer to buy a new VCR machine? If I had paid for my product to be promoted, I would surely be pissed if the people that I paid good money to, with the purpose to promote my products came out with their own product that would bypass my promotion. :mad:

Now back to the current century... Don't most if not all DVD's have some sort of advertising on them? :rolleyes: (in the form of trailers and some even promote television shows on regular TV.)

As I see it... the facts of this issue are very clear. The music and movie industries have encouraged us to copy our favorite songs and shows since they started marketing products that we would have to buy to do these recordings. They were getting paid in initial sales of the items they were selling but made alot more money selling equipment that would allow people to record these items themselves. Do the math. $15.00 for a music album or $60.00 for a cassette recorder. (1980's prices) $29.95 for a VCR movie or a VCR machine that you could record your own movie for $350.00 (1980's prices)(I once paid $550.00 for a Curtis Mathis VCR :eek: man did I get ripped :D )

Now... fast forward to today. Today technology is changing so fast that cassette recorders are almost extinct and if you find one you won't pay anymore than a few bucks for it. VCR technology is obsolete. They hung on to this baby for as long as they could coming out with 4 to 6 head models, stereo, skip commercial buttons and the prices have plumetted down to as low as $19.95. Next year, Blockbuster and Movie Gallery are going to discontinue VCR tapes alltogether. So when this happens, the VCR will be officially dead.

With the digital age, computers and ever changing technology to produce a newer, faster and better quality product, the music and movie industries have been left behind. They are still marketing the same stuff as 30 years ago but they are just not making the money they used to because we as consumers don't have to buy their overpriced equipment anymore to make the copies they encoraged us to make years ago. This is why "the industry" is upset. They have lost a lot of money and don't know how to get it back. They should be honest and publicly state that "we have ripped the consumer off for years when we were selling coping equipment and now since that part of our income is slowly but surely dying we would like for you to stop copying our products."

Thank you for reading this. I will now step down from the pulpit. :D

jaagee

[MackemX]

:step up:
isn't it something stupid like 24 hours you can only have the recorded program?

I'm sure there's a time limit for you to watch the recorded broadcasted material later than originally shown

what if you set your VCR while you go away on holiday for two weeks though?
:step down:

[jaagee]

Originally posted by MackemX
:step up:
isn't it something stupid like 24 hours you can only have the recorded program?

I'm sure there's a time limit for you to watch the recorded broadcasted material later than originally shown

what if you set your VCR while you go away on holiday for two weeks though?
:step down:

I have not ever read a time restriction pertaining to VCR recordings. :confused:

jaagee

[MackemX]

I'm just getting muddled up I guess regarding the time but I do know there is something called a time shifting license in existence

maybe you can watch it later but then you have to delete it and there's no time limits

not so sure which country it's for or it's exact details but I know something like that is around so maybe some boffin will come in and clear up my mess ;)

[hicks]

@Sectie.B :

You're completely wrong ;) : There is no mention in the law that you must BUY the dvd (The only thing is that you MUST be the copyist and that the copy is for private use). If you stole a dvd in a shop, run to your house and make a copy for your personal use, you will be charged for the theft but not for the copy.

You can send a mail here auvibel@auvibel.be (as I did) for some clarifications and you will be surprised by their response.

The tax is for the right of private copy and has abslolutely nothing to do with piracy.

(everything can change when the European DMCA will be there)