New Codecs in Standalone Players

[bilu]

RV9 growing up, WM9 wants to open, XVID is maturing but it is an MPEG-4 codec (so it also uses patented technology), China is developing a new video format called AVS, Xiph is developing the patent-free Theora... not to mention H.264.

I wonder about all this codecs, patents and technologies trying to get into the standalone player market. Is a strategic point, sooner or later they'll try to grow into this direction.

I'd like to hear opinions about this. Which codecs do you think that will race into this market?


Bilu

[int 21h]

The nice thing about XviD is that its banking on a standard, a standard who's relatives have made it into standalone products before (Mpeg-2 anyone?), and even better... DivX Networks is pushing their product everywhere they can, XviD and DivX 5 are different implementations of the same standard, so, in theory, anything that plays DivX 5, will play XviD.

The only problem I see right now is the lack of content standards. Mpeg-2 has well defined standards for DVD Video and the accompanying audio, so it was very straight forward to manufacture the chipsets needed for decoding a DVD. Mpeg-4 chipsets are harder because people are using them to play a WIDE array of resolutions in containers that are doing things they were never intended to do (VBR audio streams in AVI, etc.)

So, if the companies in the Mpeg-4 ball court want to get anywhere, they need to standardize with some well defined standards of different quality settings or profiles that all players are guaranteed to play, and that they might play other resolutions, etc. This would be very similar to the MP@ML type of profiles that Mpeg-2 has. Otherwise, they will never be able to develop chipsets that reliably play all of the different incarnations of Mpeg-4 out there.

i.e.

Low Profile: 352x480
Medium Profile: 720x480
High Profile: 1920x1080

All profiles would share common values for what audio streams are acceptable, the mux rate they should use, and the container they should use... Max bitrate could be something like 9.8MBPS (same neighborhood as DVD)

[bilu]

Just read this about AVS:

http://www3.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-07/31/content_250474.htm

One can expect this format to become popular: players are made there, probably no region policy... and you know how much South-Asia can dictate the rules in technology :)

Remember how much Apple and others had to fight against the proposed patent fees for MPEG-4? There were no alternatives around then.

I wouldn't be surprised to see South-Asia developing alternatives to avoid becoming a technologic hostage.


Bilu

[int 21h]

They are only developing an alternative because of communist rhetoric.

I find it truly humorous that they are indeed developing an alternative system for themselves, while they also are the #1 manufacturers of DVD systems for the rest of the world.

[bb]

I voted for MPEG-4, as it is already available. But I really believe this should have been a multiple choice poll (check boxes, not radio buttons).

bb

[ppera2]

Originally posted by int 21h
They are only developing an alternative because of communist rhetoric.....


Funny reaction... They want make money, as much possible - simple.
Is it communistic?

China is btw. already long time capitalistic country - looking economy.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by ppera2
Funny reaction... They want make money, as much possible - simple.
Is it communistic?

China is btw. already long time capitalistic country - looking economy.

They want to avoid paying royalties and succumbing to the region controled monopoly that is the DVD movie industry. AVD is nothing new, check out here: http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20010111S0022

[bilu]

@int21h

Originally posted by int 21h
They are only developing an alternative because of communist rhetoric.


Read this before thinking communism:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32744.html

Originally posted by int 21h
They want to avoid paying royalties and succumbing to the region controled monopoly that is the DVD movie industry.

That's a good thing, to have choice against monopolies.

Originally posted by int 21h
I find it truly humorous that they are indeed developing an alternative system for themselves, while they also are the #1 manufacturers of DVD systems for the rest of the world.

That's why I think the alternative is not just for themselves ;)


Bilu

[bilu]

Originally posted by bb
I voted for MPEG-4, as it is already available. But I really believe this should have been a multiple choice poll (check boxes, not radio buttons).

bb

You're right, I hadn't noticed the option :)


Bilu

[Animaniac]

H.264 is part of MPEG-4... (Advanced Video Coding Profile)

Also, int 21h I believe there are several Profiles and Levels that exist for MPEG-4 video: Simple and Advanced Simple Profiles and their respective levels. Something similar also exists for MPEG-4 AAC audio (LC, HE, LTP, Main, etc.) and the MP4 container. If a chip maker wanted to follow standards, they are definately available. However, money drives everything, and right now the money is behind DivX and their MPEG-4 video and MP3 audio in AVI model (which is the antithesis of a standards). Also, the wide majority of customers can't make heads or tails of MPEG-4. AVI is somewhat synonimous with DivX, so a product purely supporting the MPEG-4 standards would be confusing for people who just want to play DivX (or XviD). Once companies get behind MPEG-4, there will be MPEG-4 content providers (a la MPEG-2 content providers, i.e. DVD-Video), then we can see a viable, standard-conforming player.

[int 21h]

You are correct, there are already defined profiles and levels in the standard, I guess what I mean to say is restrict it even further ;)

[trbarry]

The next hardware standard may indeed be dictated by license terms rather than technology. We are mostly using free Xvid/Divx/MPEG4 here and mostly ignoring such things. But the proposed MPEG-4 (and probably H264/AVC) license terms are still probably not competitive.

I think there will certainly be some MPEG-4 hardware players, though maybe not for HDTV resolutions. But I can't at all predict the winner, and didn't vote.

- Tom

[bilu]

Again at the same article from Chinese AVS:
http://www3.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-07/31/content_250474.htm


Gao Wen said at the AVS Forum 2003 held yesterday in Beijing that the AVS standard will be based on all public technologies and Chinese inventions, so it will be free from patent complaints or royalty demands from foreign organizations.

He revealed that his team had registered 58 patents in the field.

Last year, Chinese DVD manufacturers reached agreement with the so-called 6C patent licensing alliance including Hitachi, Matsushita, Toshiba, JVC, Mitsubishi and Time Warner and 3C alliance formed by Phillips, Sony and Pioneer to pay US$4 and US$5 royalties for every DVD player they export.

China exported about 10 million DVD players overseas in 2002.

Heavy royalties are one of the main factors that prompted China to develop its own standard.

The royalty fee on every device using MPEG2 standard is US$2.5. It is estimated that Chinese consumers may buy 400 million units of digital televisions and DVD players in the next 10 years, which means they may have to pay US$1 billion.

However, in the case of the AVS standard, the electronic device makers only need to pay about 1 yuan (US$0.12) per device and AVS members could pay even less.


There will still be patents and royalties around. I wonder if Hollywood would ever distribute under a chinese standard... :sly:


Bilu

[Lord_KiRon]

Patent protected MPEG4 is OK compared to new M$ WM codecs with DMR.

[Sirber]

I wonder who voted RV9 ;)

[bilu]

@Sirber

It's about time to see you posting in this thread ;)
Can you convince Karl to post here also ? :D

Bilu

[trbarry]

For the last few decades now the world has generated some interesting and heated dialog about socialism, comunism, capitalism, and the degree of rights granted by the ownership of various types of tangible property.

I wonder how much this process has to be repeated for ownership of ideas and the rights granted for ownership of the various types of intellectual property?

Hopefully an amicable compromise can be reached with somewhat less ruckus. ;)

- Tom

[ppera2]

All this talk about some comunistic conspiracy against (mostly) US patents is far outdated (if ever really existed). Good product is good product, good patent is good also. Sooner or later it will be very popular on World market.

Communism is dead - if you don't believe, point on some North Korean produkt outside this country.

Real problem is monopolism. Some want monopol at all cost, some want to enter competition. There is nothing of amicism (or how say it...). This is pure business.

[bilu]

Originally posted by ppera2
All this talk about some comunistic conspiracy against (mostly) US patents is far outdated (if ever really existed). Good product is good product, good patent is good also. Sooner or later it will be very popular on World market.

Real problem is monopolism. Some want monopol at all cost, some want to enter competition. There is nothing of amicism (or how say it...). This is pure business.

I think conspiracy to keep monopoly may come from the American DVD industry over Hollywood against the new Chinese format. But like you say, it's pure business :rolleyes:


Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by ppera2
Communism is dead - if you don't believe, point on some North Korean produkt outside this countrycuban drinks, music and cigars :D


and i only say "GPL" ;)

[bilu]

cuban drinks, music and cigars :D

That is not North Korean, but there are lots of "Made in China" or "Made in ROC" (Republic of China) out there. :)

and i only say "GPL" ;)

Open-source is the only communist-perspective that works, because information and decisions are open to everybody. But let's stop here before we hurt rule 15, OK? :)

15) Political discussion not directly related to DVD backup issues are prohibited.


Bilu

[Sirber]

So you're saying that opensource is a kind of communism? and if I participate to an opensource project, I'm a communist? :devil: :D

[bilu]

Communism is something like "all in the hands of everyone", while anarchy stands for "all in the ends of no one". To me, anarchy is plain stupid.

IMHO, communism never worked because there was allways rich and poor, informed and uninformed, smart and ignorant people, so a father-state was raised to "protect the innocent". That's why it ended so close to fascism: the state was above all things, forcing more than teaching or bringing initiative.

But the communist ideals are doable with the open-source because decisions and information are open. It's probably the only field in life where it could work, and thanks to the Internet (also communist by nature IMHO).

This political rant is just to say that the communist ideals work nicely in software, and patents are a bit like fascism to me :)


Bilu

[ppera2]

Microsoft is communictic company. They share IE and other products for free! :)

Folks, just don't mix sharing of information (what software is) with sharing of material stuff.

[bilu]

Microsoft is communictic company. They share IE and other products for free! :)


Well, they don't share the source code :D


Folks, just don't mix sharing of information (what software is) with sharing of material stuff.

You're right, but remember that sharing of information also fails in the communist regimes.


But what about coming to the original subject instead? Do you think Hollywood would ever distribute under the Chinese AVS system?


Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by bilu
But what about coming to the original subject instead? Do you think Hollywood would ever distribute under the Chinese AVS system?sure

if they want to enter the chinese market and
if china restricts the selling of normal dvd stuff...

[bilu]

Yeah, but China makes a lot of DVD players, so I wouldn't be surprised to see players sold outside China supporting both MPEG-2 and AVS formats.

And I'm sure we'll see them fighting against region codes as well.

That's why I think the DVD industry will make pressure over Hollywood to avoid supporting this format as much as possible.

A cheaper, better featured and region-free media would sell better than DVD's.


Bilu

[Sirber]

Hum... :confused: What's AVS? :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hum... exactly!

I ofcourse love Mpeg4 becuase I have a hardware player!

However, later on this month we'll see the launch of WinXP Media Centre (or Center).

I wonder how flexible this version of the XP O/S will be. But I can't help feeling it be hell bent on shoving more WMV9 licensened media down or throats!

Cheers

[bilu]

Originally posted by Sirber
Hum... :confused: What's AVS? :D


http://www.avs.org.cn/en/

http://www3.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-08/06/content_252514.htm


Bilu

[int 21h]

Did you know that 3 out of the top 10 markets affected by piracy are in Asia? China is #1, Taiwan #2, Thailand #3.*

The Chinese public has an estimated 20 million DVD players, likely to rise to 42 million in 2006, and 74 million VCD players. And according to MPAA estimates, 90% of the DVDs sold in China are illegal copies.**

If it were not for the WTO, piracy would more than likely be even worse in China, who, because of their membership in the WTO, have an obligation to protect overseas intellectual property.

And so, we've stumbled upon the problem that the MPAA tried to solve with Region coding. How do you sell a disc in one nation for $20 USD, and sell a very similar disc in another nation for $5 USD? And you can bet that the next DVD format that Hollywood stands behind is going to have what is, at that time, an unbeatable encryption. Probably on the order of 256bits. (Similar to the signing algorithms that many satellite providers already use in conjunction with Mpeg-2)

*Commercial Piracy Report of 2003 (http://www.ifpi.org/site-content/antipiracy/piracy2003-regional-reports.html)
**Perspective, China and the DVD Pirates (http://216.239.33.104/search?q=cache:_yBwDXp8c6EJ:www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/8_china.htm+China+against+region+DVDs&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[ppera2]

Now we coming to old theme: how could you expect that average Chinese worker will pay 20 $ for DVD, when must work 5 days for it?

Western people is happy to buy DVD player for some 100 $ manufactured on China, but is scandalized about piracy there. It's absurd, if you look things in right way.

Region coding will not prevent people outside China to buy cheap medias for Chinese market. However, I don't think that it has some big affect on all what happens.

What is solution? Exclude China and similar countries from movie distribution? It's almost impossible, and will not increase profit of movie companies.
Selling movies (legal sale) for much lower price would be much better solution. It could result with massive shopping and carying out from China, but it can be prevented with better custom controll.
Journey to China is still too expensive, so noone will travel there to bay couple cheap DVD or AVS titles. I don't see other way to stop piracy.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by ppera2
... I don't see other way to stop piracy.

Use a stronger form of encryption...

[ppera2]

That will not prevent crackers to find algorithm of encryption.

CSS is cracked - not by decrypting, but by finding part of code for decryption - in software player. But it can be made by hardware players too.

Beside it, there is many other way to stole movie content - you don't need to decrypt it, just to play and capture...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi ppera2

Beside it, there is many other way to stole movie content - you don't need to decrypt it, just to play and capture... This is most true. Unfortunately the only way to stamp out high levels of DVD piracy would be to make the blank discs more expensive in the first place! And fortunatly for the consumer this tactic is out of the media production companies hands!

But lets not forget the media companies have tried using this approach before by trying to encourage our governments to put high taxes on blank medias such as compact cassette tape, VHS tape and CD~R's!

In time there may only be one 'reasonably' secure alternative. There will be no DVD's, no VHS tape recorders, no satellite or cable recievers etc. All media will be streamed directly to your 'specially chipped' wall mounted monitor. So the only way you could copy what you see, would be to hold an 'old fashioned' digital camcorder infront of it!

However, by the time this technology arrives, the media companies will have gone bust!

Cheers

[bilu]

We're starting to look like MPAA... :D LOL

How about hardware protection on DVD recorders?

Something like:

1) DVD player monitors the way you're scanning the DVD drive.
2) If not the standard/secure/defined way then it would trigger a lock over all CD/DVD recorders that would force you to reboot to be able to record again. This would allow SafeDisc type protection.

3) At the 5th time (like regions stuff) it would force you to shutdown and use a jumper.

By being annoying over every DVD you try to decrypt it would make a lot of people give up on decrypting.

You would need to define a new DVD copy-protection and a new security trigger for CD/DVD recorders, which is the really difficult part.

I better hurry to make a patent for this :D


Bilu

[SeeMoreDigital]

Fortunately for us (but unfortunately for the media companies) no modern encryption system is totally secure!

But, the SkyDigital satellite encryption system is about as secure as it gets at the moment - it has a smart card which has to be 'paired' to the reciever.

It's major weak point is that the set top decoder is separate from the TV/monitor. So provide the signal has been decrypted, it can be recorded/captured.

However, if the decoder and the TV/monitor was housed in the same unit, it would be very difficult {maybe even impossible) to capture the audio and the video signal even after it's been decrypted!

Cheers

[trbarry]

At the typical resolution and quality levels needed for Internet file sharing, encryption of media is pretty much of an excercise in futility. Increasingly consumers will have access to pro-sumer camcorders with resolutions like 720p & 1440x1080i. If you point these at an LCD, plasma, or other non-blinking display they should probably be able to capture quite a good picture. This is likely true whether it is HDCP/5C, PPV, VOD, or whatever.

And it does little good to charge a high rate for blank special purpose media. The data media cost for general purpose PC's has dropped to very small amounts and shows little sign of halting. Since movies can just be treated as data there is little chance of them being file shared in any other more restrictive format. So any over priced special purpose media will just price itself out of the market.

- Tom

[int 21h]

Originally posted by ppera2
That will not prevent crackers to find algorithm of encryption.

CSS is cracked - not by decrypting, but by finding part of code for decryption - in software player. But it can be made by hardware players too.

Beside it, there is many other way to stole movie content - you don't need to decrypt it, just to play and capture...

A) CSS is not an encryption. CSS is a cipher, please research such things :( CSS is a 40-bit cipher.

B) CSS was more of a means of manufacture control than consumer control! How? Why? CSS has one and only one function. Its the insurance for the licensor that the licensees abide by their terms. Who is the licensor? Hollywood. Who are the licensees? DVD Player manufacturers (both software and hardware). So what are these terms?

Required to implement region coding and Macrovision (tm)
Restricted from implementing certain types of high quality digital outputs


C) CSS is not required to produce DVDs. Breaking the cipher of CSS has been widely publicized, and yet DVDs continue to come out.. Why? Because CSS is a contractual obligation, not a form of content control.

Why?

CSS has no ability to tell who is an authorized user
CSS itself does not include regional restrictions
CSS is not a copy protection, because bit-bit copies using the original manufacturing process are still doable.


Unfortunately for residents of the United States, CSS has been coined by the current court system as a technical protective measure and is hence protected by the DMCA.

When I refer to encryption, I am talking about real encryption systems. Divx (the now defunct dvd standard) was encrypted by a 192-bit key-length system known as TripleDES. To this day, no one has brute-forced a Divx disc. Satellite TV providers usually use a proprietary based system (from RSA) implemented through very specific hardware. One provider, for example, uses a specific encrypting processor in their cards called an ASIC that processes encryption/decryption requests using 256+ bit keys. RSA encryption uses two prime numbers (p and q) at 256-bits and 258-bits respectively. The only known way to break RSA encryption is factor pq into p and q respectively. To date, no one has broken any satellite provider's stream encryption. Every single intrusion into these systems has been through that system's card, and even with a complete dump of the card's code*, hackers have been unable to break the encryption of that same satellite provider. Currently the only way these 'hackers' are able to decrypt the provider's encrypted commands is to 'slave' an access card to a computing device and manually send decryption requests to the card's ASIC. This ASIC is also the reason a 'card-less' system (by pirates) for most satellite providers is impossible.

So, what lessons can we learn from these industries? Your encryption system is only as strong as the users (i.e. Software developers who leaked the original CSS cipher, Hardware developers who don't secure Conditional Access Modules against intrusions, etc.). Its very challenging to develop truly secure systems for media content, however, it is not completely impossible.



*Ironically, even though this satellite provider decided to secure its command system with RSA encryption, it secured its cards with a simple 64-bit XOR encryption :p

DISCLAIMER: This post is intended to be for educational purposes only and is not meant to provide any hints or means for any defeats of any technical protective measures. Any simularities between specific real-life companies and companies cited in this post are purley coincidental.

[ppera2]

We can argue here about bit count used by encryption, by DVD encryption terminology etc.
But it's all irrelevant. Point is next: if you want that consumer will be able to watch particular content, for what he payed, you must supply them encrypted content, decrypter and key. If pirate has all this together, it's just matter of skill, knowledge, time and money spent to make good quality copy. No need for breaking long bit encryptions - key is here.

About increasing taxes for medias: big pirates, like those in China doesn't use recordable medias, but standard pressed ones - it's much cheaper by mass production, of course.

Macrovision is in fact very poor protection. You can buy for some 50 bucks remover.

SeeMoreDigital:
Why would be so hard to capture video and audio from integrated Receiver/TV ? You just need to find RGB or component signals in, plus audio - it can perform every TV servicer.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by ppera2
... SeeMoreDigital:
Why would be so hard to capture video and audio from integrated Receiver/TV ? You just need to find RGB or component signals in, plus audio - it can perform every TV servicer. Using current contruction methods that's true. But there's nothing at all preventing future LCD/plasma screens being part of the encryption proceess as well. As such screens could be programmed to display the pixels in any order!

Anyway, my possible 'nightmare' vision of the future, sees a world where there would be no need for any recording/capturing devices (except personal camcorders) because everything you want to watch will be streamed to your intergrated reciever/TV. Most of which, the consumer will pay for!

Cheers

[ppera2]

Right SeeMore... We can expect better and better protections in future... But I hope in some better laws, better moral. Better life and better fees for all people on Planet.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by ppera2
... No need for breaking long bit encryptions - key is here.


I wish I could explain in a way that would be easier to understand. But if you reread my description of most satellite decryption you'll see that you never get the key. You get pq. You have any idea how long it will take to factor two 256 bit keys? Even using a sieve, it would take on the order of years.

Also, in private key / public key situations like RSA encryption systems, you don't have to provide the key to the recipient for decryption.

Not only that, but I think my point about what CSS really is flew right past you.

Finally, I would say a good quality digital copy is a copy that is not derived from analog means (i.e. you compromise the protection of the video stream and get it in exact digital quality, not hooking up to outputs on the reciever).

[ppera2]

int21h:

Well, I try to look things from practical side. Pirates doesn't care much for quality - even by pure digital copy they often screw up things. My point was that capturing is possible when we have video signal ready for watching on TV for example. There is no need for talk about encripting techniques. Fact is that costumer have decoded material in his system - how will he capture it depends from much things, but it's possible, even in digital form in some cases.
Btw. some cable TV services here send illegal HBO to their costumers - they have not licence for it.

Your point about CSS is not important in this case when we talk about possibilities to steal some A/V content.

[int 21h]

You telling me what pirates are like... that's interesting :p

Anyways, I guess we've explored nearly as far as we'll go on this line of discussion.

Cheers.

[ppera2]

Originally posted by int 21h
You telling me what pirates are like... that's interesting :p ...
Cheers.

Is this some kind of confession? :D

[int 21h]

Search around, I'm sure you can find the answers in the very, very old threads of this forum's existence.

Of course, the answers were much more obvious in the old ezBoard forum, and I'm sure there are some, besides Doom9, who know it.

In any event, I don't recommend following that path as it only leads to two places (as I have said before), litigation and/or prison.

[ppera2]

Thanks for info and warning. Of course I don't take whole this discussion too seriously - we are just poor amateurs here, while big bosses make their own. We can't know what comming, we can't change things, maybe just very-very-very little...