Where are you going, Matroska?

[Yusaku]

Hi all,

first, I want to thank all matroska devs for creating such a nice and extensible format - thing that was needed in audio/video community for a long time. Unfortunatelly, it is still not used too much and I would like to point to the facts that are IMO holding it back the most at the present time (i.e. I like matroska, but before especially the first point is not met, I cannot distribute the files)

1 - audio support (windows-only problem): both directshow filters currently output all audio streams, and thus when a BFU (Basic First-time User) installs the splitter, he hears a cacophony of sometimes not less than eight audio tracks played at once. I know there are options how to select only one track, but these are either player-related, or the universal MMSwitch only.

Player related is definitelly a bad choice if matroska is to be universal format; and MMSwitch is... just not working well. It doesn't support float-point samples (thus just installing all filters is not enough, you need to teach the user how to configure vorbis decoder or include it inside splitter pack) and when installed players tend to crash way more then without it in the system.

Is there some possibility of repairing mmswitch or releasing a new audio switcher for DShow? (preferably based on MPCs internal). When such a filter is released and packed into matroska DShow installer, it will be possible to let people just download the MKV file and splitter. Up to now, the only fool-proof way I know of is telling everyone to use MPC.

2 - subtitle support. In the cases when SRT is not enough (pretty often ^_^), there is not any other viable option. SSA is limited to windows and basic three fonts in western code page, as everything else can differ from system to system; and even if the font attachments were working, try to include japanese font with the subtitle track (you can easily end up having 50MB subtitle stream).

The obvious question: when is the picture subtitle stream going to be implemented? The roadmap (http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/matroska/doc/website/features.html) says "August", but doesn't include year :)

Keep up the good work.

[Gaia]

Check out this http://mcf.sourceforge.net/

:D

Lets see what happends, which container survives...

[robUx4]

Originally posted by Yusaku
Player related is definitelly a bad choice if matroska is to be universal format; and MMSwitch is... just not working well. It doesn't support float-point samples (thus just installing all filters is not enough, you need to teach the user how to configure vorbis decoder or include it inside splitter pack) and when installed players tend to crash way more then without it in the system.

Is there some possibility of repairing mmswitch or releasing a new audio switcher for DShow? (preferably based on MPCs internal). When such a filter is released and packed into matroska DShow installer, it will be possible to let people just download the MKV file and splitter. Up to now, the only fool-proof way I know of is telling everyone to use MPC.

It is not related to matroska, the container. Just the code trying to make it available. And it is definitely player related. What you are asking is tricks to be able to play files in bad players (that assume too much about DirectShow). And we don't usually support tricks. Now if we can have a simple way to have a file playing fine in all players, we could do it. Unfortunately if you speak only german you probably don't want to hear the track in spanish. And if the player doesn't let you change, you are unable to play the file anyway...

[robUx4]

Originally posted by Yusaku
The obvious question: when is the picture subtitle stream going to be implemented? The roadmap (http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/matroska/doc/website/features.html) says "August", but doesn't include year :)

Yes, we have been progressing very slowly for one month (just correcting a few bugs here and there and adding minor features). As we all worked a lot during the previous months we needed a break.

We'll see now the biggest user requests and work on that first. :)

[Latexxx]

Originally posted by Gaia
Check out this http://mcf.sourceforge.net/

:D

Lets see what happends, which container survives...

We will see...

[unplugged]

Originally posted by Latexxx
We will see...
I see matroska much modern, especially for its dynamics, sure nothing is perfect but looking at the specs I really see how it is so logical and solid conceptually.
Future needs this, not weak compromises!

And concept apart it *plays* flawlessly right now with tons of stuff muxed! ;)
Thanx to Gabest too!

[DAvenger]

Does anyone know who (except Tronic) is working on MCF? I thought the project is dead :rolleyes:

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Yusaku I like matroska, but before especially the first point is not met, I cannot distribute the files)
1 - audio support (windows-only problem): both directshow filters currently output all audio streams, and thus when a BFU (Basic First-time User) installs the splitter, he hears a cacophony of sometimes not less than eight audio tracks played at once.

Its all possible, but we needed a dedicated DShow parser specialist for this, right now all is done by robux4 and he has to concentrate on the basic stuff like the library, etc.

Gabest was doing a great parser filter, but of course he is focussing on using it with his own player MPC, and he has a great audio switcher coming with it. Toff is busy with TCMP, although he helped us a lot, he cant do it.

Its always the same problem, we need a dedicated DShow developer badly :( ....

[sysKin]

Originally posted by robUx4
It is not related to matroska, the container. Just the code trying to make it available. And it is definitely player related.Hm, I've been thinking - as soon as you implement menu, it becomes container-related because the player doesn't have to be aware of the menu and its commands (and changing audio track will be among them I expect).

Am I wrong?

[mf]

Originally posted by DAvenger
Does anyone know who (except Tronic) is working on MCF? I thought the project is dead :rolleyes:
Let's see. I'm admining (yes, even if it's not in my user title anymore I'm still "MCF Team" :D), Tronic's speccing, jonde has joined recently and there's some guys on the mailinglist, and Foogod has shown interest a few days ago. We might finally be getting along, and probably faster than you'd expect. We're stealing all of Matroska's stuff and just use it with our own lib :D :p.

[Animaniac]

I think Nic was working on taking the Audio Switcher filter from the guliverkli CVS and adding some UI so it can work with other players. I don't know if/how that panned out. Gabest is against releasing another auto-loading filter, rightly so.

Originally posted by mf
We're stealing all of Matroska's stuff and just use it with our own lib :D :p.
-_-;;;

[dillee1]

definately need idx/sub subtitle muxing support.
after all this is the primary foramt use in dvdrips:devil:

[Gaia]

Originally posted by dillee1
definately need idx/sub subtitle muxing support.
after all this is the primary foramt use in dvdrips:devil:

No it's not. Most of the people use srt or ssa subtitles.

[raistlin2k]

Might be that most people use SRT & I even don't want to discuss about this.

It's a FACT that IDX/SUB is really a good and especially easy way to rip DVD-subs, you don't need any OCR!!

a friend of mine & me made 180 rips using microDVD-standards (inlcuding SRT-subs) & switched now to OGM+IDX/SUB, already made 80 movies in new system, really time-saving!!

Moving to Matroska would be cool offering following advantages over OGM:
- jump to chapters even without a keyframe (OGM fails)
- save IDX inside the container (not implented YET, I hope)

Raist

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by mf We're stealing all of Matroska's stuff and just use it with our own lib :D :p.

A good plan :) ! You might know more about XviD encoding, AVS scripts and filtering then i do, mf, but it seems i still have a small advantage in terms of containers.

MCF and matroska are so very much different, this just doesnt work as you think it could work my friend. So pls. stop confusing the members here with such unfounded, undoable and impossible statements. Thanks.

Christian

[mf]

So? Milan adapted XviD's code for ffdshow, and look what it's become. You shouldn't think stealing stuff can't be done if something is very different. This saves us a LOT of work, and I've already talked about it with Tronic. Or would you think coding a dshow parser from scratch would be easier? (Not like Gabest's stuff though, he's just like, a coding god or sth)

[DAvenger]

Originally posted by mf
So? Milan adapted XviD's code for ffdshow, and look what it's become. You shouldn't think stealing stuff can't be done if something is very different. This saves us a LOT of work, and I've already talked about it with Tronic. Or would you think coding a dshow parser from scratch would be easier? (Not like Gabest's stuff though, he's just like, a coding god or sth)

Open Source at its best :p Of course the word "adapt" would be more appropriate ;)

[Nic]

@Animaniac: Gabest is against it...and hence I haven't released it. Still, it's a hell of a lot better than the morgan stream switcher. which some people might still use. But they should use MPC anyway ;)

-Nic

[dillee1]

Originally posted by Gaia
No it's not. Most of the people use srt or ssa subtitles.

:devil: :scared: :sly: :angry: You must come from a world that there are no non-latin character then.

SRT shits with CJK characters!:mad:

[Gaia]

Originally posted by dillee1
:devil: :scared: :sly: :angry: You must come from a world that there are no non-latin character then.



That's right. I don't know anyone who uses VobSub subtitles.

Ofcouse it could be very usefull and nice feature if you could mux them to some container. Not just very important for lots of people. You can live without it.

Instead i would like to see menu system :)

[raistlin2k]

You can live without it.

Well, this depends on how the Subtitle file is read during playback:

If it's read at once on playback start, no problem, but if it is read continously during playback, it would be a lot better for the CD drive, if it were saved inside the container.

The reason is the same as for secondary sound-streams saved in additional files beside the container (as done in the beginning of microDVD) > the drive has to jump around whole time for reading two files, reducing the health of the drive.

Second advantage: You have required subtitles (for translations) in the container, no risk to forget them on copying the movie.

Any, last but not last, my dad will stop asking me which file of the three to click for starting playback.:p

Raist

[kairos]

either when a menu is supported, or ecc and fec are fully supported

[RathO]

That's right. I don't know anyone who uses VobSub subtitles.

Of course it could be very usefull and nice feature if you could mux them to some container. Not just very important for lots of people. You can live without it.
What? :scared:
i wish i have found the vobsub solution before... It is a pain in the a** to correct srt subs when you have lots to do. I am not lazy at all but i just cant spend any more time correcting those. I also prefer the dvd-looking subs from vobsub (personal opinion...)

It would be VERY NICE to mux idx/subs into container (yes im speaking of mkv here..).. 'cause the dream still: all-in-one-file :D

Regards

[Prettz]

Originally posted by RathO
What? :scared:
i wish i have found the vobsub solution before... It is a pain in the a** to correct srt subs when you have lots to do. I am not lazy at all but i just cant spend any more time correcting those.
Last time I used SubRip was well over a year ago, but is it still completely unable to handle italicized letters or force linebreaks where they're supposed to be?

[RathO]

@Prettz:

Not that Subrip is not a good program, i wont bitch a program i've been using for ages, but some DVD, you just can't mux the subs file without correcting/checking.. :mad:

I got one DVD that SubRip putted spaces between almost every letters... damn i had a hard time with that one... if i had used vobsub, it would have take ~45 seconds to rip the subs...

For italicized letters, well, still have problems with like: f: and % .... :(

I would be so happy to see idx/subs muxed into my mkv files... :D

It would also be great that we can mux the rarred subs...

Regards

[Animaniac]

Originally posted by dillee1
:devil: :scared: :sly: :angry: You must come from a world that there are no non-latin character then.

SRT shits with CJK characters!:mad:

I believe this is solved with UTF encoded subs in SSA (and SRT?).

Also, I think ECC at the container level is a bit counter-intuitive...

[mf]

Originally posted by Animaniac
I believe this is solved with UTF encoded subs in SSA (and SRT?).
Doesn't solve the fact that OCRing a character set of a few thousand similar chars is a MAJOR pain in the ass.

[Gaia]

SupRip does have a lots of settings. Sometimes it helps a lot if you do even very small adjustments. It might take few tries but then you find correct settings ripping is very easy. If you get breaks between characters you need to adjust few things.

Italics is a problem i agree...

In some rare cases then some strange font is used it's almost imbossible to do OCRing but it's rare.

I use Word's spelling checker to correct mistakes. It doesn't usually take long.

[raistlin2k]

ähm, this is a matroska discussion (or it was)
We're getting a little bit off-topic.

Raist

[RathO]

About the VobSub support into Matroska :D , the latest mkvtoolnix 0.7.0 has: new-but-deactivated: VobSub handler. Has to be specified, but it'll come soon (including compression)!1- ...Has to be specified... is it a long process?
2- Is there a visual (with images) guide for mkvmerge GUI?

i asked a 2nd question

Regards

[Mosu]

Originally posted by RathO
1- ...Has to be specified... is it a long process?

Nope. It depends on when Gabest comes back. Then we can finalize the specs (I'm pretty sure they won't change much from what we've already discussed) and he has to add support for VobSub-in-Matroska in his filters.

WIth luck it'll happen in the next 14 days. Maybe a bit later.

2- Is there a visual (with images) guide for mkvmerge GUI?

Nope, not yet. Maybe I'll make one soon, but it is REALLY not THAT difficult. A short walkthrough for the most common case:

Start on the 'input' tab. Add files in the upper list box with the "+" button on its right. Select a file, select a track in the lower list box. Then change some of its attributes, e.g. the language. Repeat for all tracks/files you want to process. Tracks can be DEactivated (excluded from muxing) by clicking the checkbox to the left of the track name in the track list box.

Next head to the 'global' tab. Select a title for the movie, e.g. "The Matrix" and input it in the first text field. If you need to split then activate the 'split' checkbox and enter a size in the following combo box.

Now hit the 'browse' button on the bottom and select an output file name. Start muxing in the menu or with Ctrl-R.

Things that the GUI can't help you with at the moment:
- chapter file creation
- tag file creation
However, these feature are on my TODO list.

[RathO]

@Mosu: Good to hear, since vobsub is the "only" necessary step for me to be finalized in Matroska :D

I have tried the older mkvmerge through GUI without success by the past. I can't wait to go back home so i can try the new version. The problem with the older version was that i could correctly mux the files into Matroska, but when i scrolled the file, i get garbage 'till the next keyframe.. grrr :mad: so i had to use graphedit to get proper muxed file... :confused:

Keep up the good working!

PS Is there a GUI for graphedit? or is it just useless...

Regards

[Mosu]

Originally posted by RathO
@Mosu: Good to hear, since vobsub is the "only" necessary step for me to be finalized in Matroska :D

I have tried the older mkvmerge through GUI without success by the past. I can't wait to go back home so i can try the new version. The problem with the older version was that i could correctly mux the files into Matroska, but when i scrolled the file, i get garbage 'till the next keyframe.. grrr :mad: so i had to use graphedit to get proper muxed file... :confused:

This might have been a problem with playback filters. Unfortunately I don't know all that much about the current versions of these filters, but you should probably check again if you have the newest version of Gabest's Matroska splitter.

However, it might have been a bug in mkvmerge as well ;)