Field Order/Scan type detection unreliable?

[idbirch2]

I use the big 3 exclusively on PAL DVDs and am having problems with ghosting/jerkyness on a lot of extras. I have tried setting DoItFast4U to use Headers and Analysis to determine the right settings but it doesn't get it right with either setting.

My first question I guess is 'Is this even a field order problem?'.

I've done lots of tests but am yet to figure this out - is this caused by not setting the scan type correctly (Alternat Scan, Zig-zag scanning etc) or my incorrect field order?

Also is Bitrate Viewer reliable? If so, why does it think everything is Top Field First - even files that I have encoded as BFF and work perfectly? DoItFast4U and Bitrate Viewer very often have very different opinions on what video type an m2v file is. Is it a good idea to have DoCCE4U open then manually go through every m2v file with bitrate viewer and ensure all settings are correct?

I hope someone can help me out, this is the only thing stopping me from making perfect copies every time.:confused:

[influenza]

I've done a couple of tests on PAL extras myself. If I let doitfast4u determine the correct settings I'm not very pleased with the outcome. So I always do them manually, using the values from bitrate viewer.

[de.lesse.bg]

You have to desactivate Top Field First in DoCCE4u and let just progressive on, thats it... experience is this the best solution, for all PAL dvds.. the ghosting effect is caused by the top field first.
the main and the extras the same. most of the time you have to add the deinterlace part in the AVS for the extras... (tested with DoItFast4U, with no result) manual works perfect... but you have to be sure if its interlaced or not... some old codecs that doesn't deinterlace are perfect to view this in mediaplayer... if someone need codecs, ...you know...

[influenza]

I agree on this. Too bad you cannot add the parameters to the command line of ccedata.txt, would make life somewhat easier.

[idbirch2]

Well I've almost finished my testing and am still to find the solution. So far I have encoded a PAL extra using the following settings:

BFF, Interlaced, Alt. Scan - No
TFF, Interlaced, Alt. Scan - No
BFF, Interlaced, Zig-zag - No
TFF, Interlaced, Zig-zag - No
BFF, Progressive,Zig-zag - No
BFF, Progressive,Alt. Scan - No

The only one I have left to try is TFF, Progressive, Zig-zag but I'm not too optimistic. Whats all this AVS stuff, I've always been a bit ignorant of these AVS scripts as I've never had to change any settings with them. Should I try de-interlacing?

Thanks for any help

[idbirch2]

Right, that last option didn't work so I tried setting DoItFast4U to de-interlace - works great, no longer have that jerky, ghosting effect. I've set if off now de-interlacing all the VTSs that BitRate Viewer says are interlaced (all of them).

When and where does the de-interlace option get enforced? Is this option set in an AVS script?

[-=ViBeZ=-]

how about not selecting tff OR bff EVER :)

just check 'progressive' for non interlaced titles & 'alternate scan' for interlaced ones

[idbirch2]

how about not selecting tff OR bff EVER :confused:

Surely unchecking Top Field First means you're encoding Bottom Field First - you have to pick one (unless there's a "Whatever field you like first" or "neither field first" option that I'm not aware of - someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

As long as this is correct I have already tried all combinations including just Alternate Scan and got the same results. I think NTSC and PAL interlaced material is different. Like I said, the only way I could get a result without that weird ghosting effect was by de-interlacing. The ghosting only shows up on the TV - looks fine on the PC.

[Eyes`Only]

Originally posted by influenza
I've done a couple of tests on PAL extras myself. If I let doitfast4u determine the correct settings I'm not very pleased with the outcome. So I always do them manually, using the values from bitrate viewer. Damn, I spent a lot of time on that! Can you elaborate? That whole function was researched and written mostly for PAL users!

[influenza]

Well , almost all extras on the dvds I have are interlaced. When I let doitfast4u do all the work they will get encoded as being interlaced. Afterwards they don't look to well. I always deinterlace them to have nice results.

So I think the title of this thread is not really good: the detection is reliable, but I just don't like the outcome when they are not deinterlaced.

[Eyes`Only]

Oh OK, that makes more sense then. I thought you were implying that bitrate viewer's report was in some way more accurate.

[influenza]

No the detection is reliable. So the question if the detection is unreliable = no.

[Eyes`Only]

Surely unchecking Top Field First means you're encoding Bottom Field First - you have to pick one (unless there's a "Whatever field you like first" or "neither field first" option that I'm not aware of - someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
checking top field first == bottom field first
unchecking top field first == top field first

blame cce, don't kill the messenger!

[idbirch2]

checking top field first == bottom field first
unchecking top field first == top field first

Do you mean checking them in DoCCE4U or in CCE itself? Or are they the same? The thing about inverting the field order in the file name adds more confusion to this. If DoItFast4U determines that a source is TFF do you tick TFF in DoCCE4U or not?

Oh, and I agree, the answer to my original question is no, the field order detection is not unreliable.

[69Mws]

As always on that bff/tff issue I recommend the CCE FAQ (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770) (Question 10) :)

Greetz
69Mws