[besweet] AC3 5.1 to 2.0 Surround2

[mad_dog123]

Alright, im not very good in english, so first my apologizes for that :)
secondly i asked a lot of people, and i did a lot of research, but i couldn't find the answer for my question. I tryed a lot of different settings with besweet, but it just doesnt work.

Im trying to make a dvd-rip. i really really want to make a AC3 file with 2.0 channels and surround sound.
-besweet has the options surround, and surround2. Is this the same as dolby prologic 1 and dolby prologic 2?

i tried the following settings

BeSweet v1.4 by DSPguru.
--------------------------
Using azid.dll v1.8 (b825) by Midas (midas@egon.gyaloglo.hu).
Using AC3enc.dll v0.2 by Gerard Lantau & Dg (http://ffmpeg.org).

Logging start : 06/30/03 , 21:34:29.

G:\virtual dub shit\beSweet\BeSweetv1.4\BeSweet.exe -core( -input G:\2nd.ac3 -output G:\blaaat.ac3 -logfile G:\BeSweet3.log ) -ac3enc( -b 224 ) -azid( -s surround2 -d 2/0 -c normal -L -3db -g max )

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSweet -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : G:\2nd.ac3
[00:00:00:000] | Output: G:\blaaat.ac3
[00:00:00:000] | Floating-Point Process: No
[00:00:00:000] +-------- AZID -------
[00:00:00:000] | Input Channels Mode: 3/2, Bitrate: 448kbps
[00:00:00:000] | Output Stereo mode: Dolby Surround 2 compatible
[00:00:00:000] | Total Gain: 7.507dB, Compression: Normal
[00:00:00:000] | LFE levels: To LR -3.0dB, To LFE 0.0dB
[00:00:00:000] | Center mix level: BSI
[00:00:00:000] | Surround mix level: BSI
[00:00:00:000] | Dialog normalization: No
[00:00:00:000] | Rear channels filtering: No
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 48.0KHz
[00:00:00:000] +------- AC3ENC ------
[00:00:00:000] | Bitrate method : CBR
[00:00:00:000] | AC3 bitrate : 224
[00:00:00:000] | Channels Mode : 5.1
[00:00:00:000] | Error Protection: Yes
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------


You can see im trying to make a 2.0 surround2 AC3 file over here. The biggest problem is, im not able to check if the output file is really a 2.0 surround2 file, because i have a receiver with only 2 speakers......(im planning to make it 5.1 soon, money is the problem :) )
so, next questions:
1. How can i see if the output file is really 2.0 surround2 (programms like avi-info, virtualdub, nandub; they all say it is 5.1)
2. Is surround the same as dolbyprologic 1, and surround 2 same as dp2?

thx alot :)

[Awatef]

1) Yes, Surround = DPL and Surround2 = DPL II

2) AFAIK, there is no AC3 that is specifically coded in Surround2. If you play the file in PowerDVD XP, you'll probably see "Dolby Digital 2.0 Surround", but you'll never see Surround2.
Now, the point is, wether PowerDVD shows you the word "Surround" or not, is not relevant. I saw many DVDs with DD 2.0 Surround although the sound is plain stereo or even mono (!). And I saw many DVDs with DD 2.0 without the word "surround", although they are DPL coded. What you deduce? all that matters is that you checked "Surround2" while encoding. You may write on your CD that it is Surround2 coded, so you remember to enable DPL2 while watching the movie.

3) If you're encoding your video to DivX, you better use MP3 or OGG (better quality than AC3). As said, it is not relevant which format is used, what matters is that you check "Surround" or "Surround2" while encoding and enable the correspondant feature in your receiver while watching the movie.

[mad_dog123]

I understand point 1 and point 2, but what do you mean with point 3.
I've made an xvid, and i want surround sound, now you say it is possible to make mp3 (or ogg) and enable surround (or surround 2).
Then i have a 2.0 channel surround file in mp3 (or ogg)......
am i right?:D

[Awatef]

Yeah, DivX or XviD, it doesn't matter. Even with MP3 or OGG you'll get the surround sound. As said, you simply have to select the option while encoding, that's all. And of course, write that on your CD-R (kinda DPL or DPL2) so you remember later to enable the right option in your receiver while playing the file.

[mad_dog123]

alright then, i fully understand it, thx a lot :cool:
i just got one question left. How can I find out if my receiver can play DPL2....
-ive got a sony str de475se
-this one can play dts, dd, dpl1.
-i cant find any information on the web or in the manual about dpl2
-i cant test if it plays dpl2 because you need more than 2 speakers connected (the display wont say what the format is)


/edit
i just did this:

"g:\virtual dub shit\beSweet\BeSweetv1.4\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "g:\2nd.ac3" -output "g:\mp3.ogg" -logfile "G:\BeSweet3.log" ) -azid( -n1 -c normal -g 10db -L -3db surround) -ota( -G max ) -ogg( -q 0.200 ) -profile( DSPguru_OGG@224kbps )
i cant play this file in powerdvd....in winamp it plays, but then its only 2channel (cause of winamp) and the bitrate is only 70, and sometimes 81 :confused:
i dont get it.....:confused:


BeSweet v1.4 by DSPguru.
--------------------------
Using azid.dll v1.8 (b825) by Midas (midas@egon.gyaloglo.hu).
Using Ogg Vorbis v1.0 dlls (http://www.vorbis.com).

Logging start : 07/11/03 , 20:21:59.

g:\virtual dub shit\beSweet\BeSweetv1.4\BeSweet.exe -core( -input g:\2nd.ac3 -output g:\mp3.ogg -logfile G:\BeSweet3.log ) -azid( -n1 -c normal -g 10db -L -3db surround) -ota( -G max ) -ogg( -q 0.200 ) -profile( DSPguru_OGG@224kbps )

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSweet -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : g:\2nd.ac3
[00:00:00:000] | Output: g:\mp3.ogg
[00:00:00:000] | Floating-Point Process: Yes
[00:00:00:000] +-------- AZID -------
[00:00:00:000] | Input Channels Mode: 3/2, Bitrate: 448kbps
[00:00:00:000] | Output Stereo mode: Dolby surround compatible
[00:00:00:000] | Total Gain: 10.000dB, Compression: Normal
[00:00:00:000] | LFE levels: To LR -3.0dB, To LFE 0.0dB
[00:00:00:000] | Center mix level: BSI
[00:00:00:000] | Surround mix level: BSI
[00:00:00:000] | Dialog normalization: Yes
[00:00:00:000] | Rear channels filtering: No
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 48.0KHz
[00:00:00:000] +-------- OGG --------
[00:00:00:000] | VBR Quality : 0.200
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------
[01:38:34:240] Gain of 7.4dB had been asserted to file.
[01:38:34:240] Conversion Completed !
[01:38:34:240] Actual Avg. Bitrate : 81kbps
[00:17:57:000] <-- Transcoding Duration
Logging ends : 07/11/03 , 20:39:56.


1. it says indeed the bitrate is 81...but why :P ?

2. why cant i play this file in powerdvd....?

3. thx alot everyone :)

[Awatef]

If your receiver doesn't have a DPLII Logo, it has DPL only.

PowerDVD won't show anything about surround unless it's an AC3 file. It can't play ogg anyway.

80k is a usual bitrate for ogg, you may change the -q level if you want higher bitrate/better quality. 96k ogg is roughly equivalent to 128k mp3 which is roughly equivalent to 160k AC3.

[empty]

-q is a quality setting for vorbis, so the bitrate alter with the complexity of the signal. Films have a lot of quiet sequences, so you got this "low" bitrate.
bb empty

[nuked]

"i just got one question left. How can I find out if my receiver can play DPL2...."

Of course, even a DPL reciever "CAN" play DPLII stuff. You seem a little a confused about just what dpl and dpl II are. I'm saying this because you were surprised by being able to put them in mp3 and becuase you expect to be able to istantly tell by hooking up speakers if DPLII is working.(ok.. you can, but only if you know what to listen for, and maybe you do, so I could well be wrong, no offense intended)
It's not like DPL is some data format that must (or even can) be recognized and it works or it doesn't. It's just a very imperfect way to mix in sound into right in left using a phase trick in such a way that it can be more or less umixed later. You don't need an audio format with any special properties to store DPL audio, just need 2 channels be it vynil or AC3. This type of out of phase sound exists even in non-DPL encoded material and DPL and DPLII decoders will play back even regular stereo with some surround effect. As well DPL will play back DPLII encoded material on all speakers. The question is should you match you system and encode in DPL or is it worth encoding in DPL II anyway. I suspect there may be differing opinions on what's better, but it shouldn't make that much diference either way.

[mad_dog123]

Thanks all of you. I understand all the problems I had before now. Now I can continue making a nice xvid :)
thx alot!

[mad_dog123]

The last days i hadnt a lot of time, but today i tried to make this file mp3, this is the log:

BeSweet v1.4 by DSPguru.
--------------------------
Using azid.dll v1.8 (b825) by Midas (midas@egon.gyaloglo.hu).
Using lame_enc.dll v1.28 (4/6/2002), Engine 3.92 <http://www.mp3dev.org/>.

Logging start : 07/16/03 , 20:55:21.

g:\virtual dub shit\beSweet\BeSweetv1.4\BeSweet.exe -core( -input g:\2nd.ac3 -output h:\mp3.mp3 -logfile G:\BeSweet3.log ) -azid( -n1 -c normal -g 10db -L -3db surround) -ota( -G max ) -lame( --scale 1 -p --alt-preset 160 ) -profile( DSPguru_MP3_for_AVI )

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSweet -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : g:\2nd.ac3
[00:00:00:000] | Output: h:\mp3.mp3
[00:00:00:000] | Floating-Point Process: Yes
[00:00:00:000] +-------- AZID -------
[00:00:00:000] | Input Channels Mode: 3/2, Bitrate: 448kbps
[00:00:00:000] | Output Stereo mode: Dolby surround compatible
[00:00:00:000] | Total Gain: 10.000dB, Compression: Normal
[00:00:00:000] | LFE levels: To LR -3.0dB, To LFE 0.0dB
[00:00:00:000] | Center mix level: BSI
[00:00:00:000] | Surround mix level: BSI
[00:00:00:000] | Dialog normalization: Yes
[00:00:00:000] | Rear channels filtering: No
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 48.0KHz
[00:00:00:000] +-------- LAME -------
[00:00:00:000] | 'abr 160' preset is used
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------
[01:38:34:240] Gain of 6.0dB had been asserted to file.
[01:38:34:240] Conversion Completed !
[01:38:34:240] Actual Avg. Bitrate : 162kbps
[00:21:37:000] <-- Transcoding Duration
Logging ends : 07/16/03 , 21:16:58.

How can i see this file is really dpl
I opened it in powerdvd, and powerdvd says "stereo"
can i send someone of you 10seconds of this file, sow you can test if the format is right?

[nuked]

strange... doesn't the surround swtich require a "-s" before it. Looks
kinda like it worked anyway... weird. Again.. there is NOTHING diferent about the data format for surround and not surround. Maybe mp3 has some flags that should be set, but Awatef already coverd that point. If you're so untrusting of azid why dont' you just do it both ways and listen to them.

[mad_dog123]

strange... doesn't the surround swtich require a "-s" before it. Looks
kinda like it worked anyway... weird. Again.. there is NOTHING diferent about the data format for surround and not surround. Maybe mp3 has some flags that should be set, but Awatef already coverd that point. If you're so untrusting of azid why dont' you just do it both ways and listen to them.

if it was that easy :P
ive got a receiver, and in the manual it says if you got 4 or more speakers connected it will display a dpl logo while playing dpl, otherwise it will use only 2 speakers (so you never know it is dpl )

[nuked]

you can dpl decode wheather the source is dpl or not. That's why I say, LISTEN.. don't listen for 4 speakers, listen for spatial separation.. they should sound diferent, that's the point right, not the little dpl light. If you don't think you can tell the diference then why are you bothering?

UPDATE:
if you really want an obvious test, encode something that has NO front channel sound and IDENTICAL rear channel sound, like contstruct some empty and not empty wav files or something and econde them into ac3, then transcode to 2 channel mp3. If it encodes in stereo, there will be essentially NO rear sound on playback. If it encodes in surround there will be rear sound.

[mad_dog123]

Originally posted by nuked
you can dpl decode wheather the source is dpl or not. That's why I say, LISTEN.. don't listen for 4 speakers, listen for spatial separation.. they should sound diferent, that's the point right, not the little dpl light. If you don't think you can tell the diference then why are you bothering?

UPDATE:
if you really want an obvious test, encode something that has NO front channel sound and IDENTICAL rear channel sound, like contstruct some empty and not empty wav files or something and econde them into ac3, then transcode to 2 channel mp3. If it encodes in stereo, there will be essentially NO rear sound on playback. If it encodes in surround there will be rear sound.

sorry if i've made you feel angry....:eek:
i think its the language problem over here :P
i fully understand your idea now, thx for the clear idea, ill try immidiatly. (why didnt i think of it myself, its brilliant :D )