IFOUpdate Adjusted Cell Mode

[quantum]

I copied this from the large thread by jdobbs on ifoupdate and the "adjusted cell mode" technique:

1. Rip the DVD to a directory using SmartRipper or DVDDecrypter.
2. Look at the directory and pick out the VTS (the big one)
holding the movie
3. Open the IFO for that VTS with IFOUpdate.
4. Set to "Adjusted Cell" mode, and write the chapter files.
5. Run DVD2AVI against the entire VTS set
6. Create an AVISYNTH .AVS file to feed to CCE.
7. Open up CCE, load the .AVS, set parameters, and save the
.ECL file.
8. With a text editor, open the .ECL file -- and add the CCE
chapter points
- If FILM source use the FILM .TXT file else use the other
- If you're new to this -- search the forum
9. Open CCE again and reload the ECL -- encode the movie
10. Run PULLDOWN if necessary.
11. Load the file into an authoring package with audio
12. Set the chapters based on the output of step 4.
- The file will import directly into Maestro
13. After you've completed, save he orginal .BUP and IFO files
- This is not required but is a good way to be safe
14. Run IFOUpdate and update the original file (in "Adjusted
Cell" mode).
15. All done. Do any other VTS sets that may need to shrink.

My question: Since this technique is demuxing by VTS, how can I demux subtitles such that they will work? As far as I can tell, vobsub only demuxes by vobid? Am I right? Does this mean I can't incorporate subtitles using this technique?

[influenza]

Just use subrip on the entire vobset. Or subrip and choose all vobids together.

[Ak47]

I've been a big fan of adjusted cell mode since JDobbs developed it... was actually dreaming that the compiled cell/chapter output would onday be included...

one of THE main advantages of adjusted cell mode is that it resolves subs content with minimum effort... IF you recreate the title using the appropriate method....

THE one for all and all for one backup method is as follows:

1. Decrypt as usual..

2. Strip unwanted subs/audio with IFOEdit.

3. DVD2AVI the VTS, demux the audio as the project file is saved using "Demux all tracks" option.

4. Analyse and save chaps for the required VTS with IFOUpdate, use "adjusted cell" mode.

5. Make avs file.. pull onto CCE.. set encoding options and save ECL. open ECL with notepad and paste in chaps from Adjusted-CCE.txt Reload ECL and encode as usual.

6. Open VTS in VOBEdit and demux the subs content required.

7. Put it all back together using "Author new DVD" function in IFOEdit... load m2v, AC3 and subs, (multiple Audio and subs are supported and so is DTS btw) load chapters from the IFOEDIT-CELLTIMES.TXT file created by IFOUpdate and MUX to chosen output Dir.

8. Copy NEW VTS from Output dir(VOBS ONLY, leave ALL IFO's alone) into dir that has other required files from title. Point IFOUpdate at this dir and select the IFO for the VTS as the "original".

Select the IFO created by IFOEdit during the mux/author as the "authored" IFO and then IFO update as usual. Finally re-open orig IFO in IFOEdit and copy the orig subs colours from the PGC in question. Open the updated IFO and paste the subs colours into the PGC and save the file.

I use the above method on ALL titles, ALL structures. I always keep ALL english subs.. there are methods tricks to assign the correct ID values to the subs/audio if required and also to beat issues such as audio and sub synch if they become problamatical. I VERY VERY rarely have probs, I'd say "Never" but you "never say never" do you ?.

(audio delay probs covered here btw, just look for the post with the word "audio" highlighted)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=49279&postid=288315&perpage=20&highlight=audio%20synch&pagenumber=2

JDobbs adjusted cell mode mod to IFOUpdate and the Author mode in IFOEdit are the best inclusions in any backup method since the scene started....

[quantum]

Wow, thanks for filling in the blanks so completely :-) That is an excellent guide.

I've used the adjusted cell mode several times before, but never following your steamlined technique and never being able to include subs.

I'm going to try your technique, but a few questions first:

1) Do you do PAL or NTSC disks? I'm in NTSC land and I heard that ifoedit may have issues with muxing NTSC disks. I've always used Maestro or Scenarist to author so I don't have any experience with it yet.

2) What about closed captions? Not a huge deal I guess since subs are handled but something I like to include when using Scenarist and the big 3.

3) Can the SUP files generated by vobedit be imported in Maestro or Scenarist?

[influenza]

I'm afraid you cannot use the extracted subs in either maestro or scenarist. the things described below can serve your purposes quite well, although most people in the (advanced) dvd authoring forum would oppose to stripping out things using ifoedit. i think what you want is not so difficult, since you already managed to do things except for the subtitles.

Like I said if you use subrip and then open the entire vobset (except for the menu file *_0.vob) you can extract the subtitles you need for either maestro or scenarist. The only time you could get into trouble with this method (out of sync subs) is when you have multiple angles.

[Ak47]

I mainly author PAL titles so i couldn't say with any accuracy if IFOEdit has probs muxing NTSC source.

It's true that maestro and scenarist cannot load the native .sup format. This was one of the main reasons I was looking for an alternative. Something that COULD address m2v/ac3/dts/sup files and create a valid DVD title therefrom. Derrow and JDobbs eithe separately or in collaboration have made this possible.. all credit to them. I believe there are methods of converting the .sup format to something the authoring apps CAN address but this is probably counter-productive and your probably better using subrip to pull them straight to an authoring app loadable format.

I always keep english subs, which can be a lot of aggro in both maestro and scenarist, depending on the title. It's often NOT just a case of just pulling in the output from subrip.. which was my previous extraction method. Subrip is affected by things like offset time values which can throw the position of the subs well out on import into the authoring app. You don't usually find this out until you import the subs, at which point you have to make a note of the offset, enter it into subrip and then extract the subs again. I had this happen enough times to make me look for a better way to keep subs. i.e something that COULD load the sup file... there seemed little sense in having it if it couldn't be used.

re stripping out unwanted content with IFOEdit... I really can't see what anyone, especialy in the advanced forum, would have against stripping out foriegn language audio/subs to create more space for m2v content and thereby better video bitrates/quality... many of the methods in the various guides do advocate this. Having said that, the stripout step CAN be skipped and all audio/subs can be left in the re-auth ... it's a choice... each to his own and all that...

I should say that I used to be a big re-auth fan using both maestro and scenarist.. but since the adjusted cell mode in IFOUpdate this all seems like too much hard work compared with the method I described. I'm no novice btw.. have over 300 backups to my credit.

There have been a very few titles which have not succumbed to the method I described and I've been forced to drop back to an authoring app to back them up. This has simply served to illustrate the benefits of avoiding authoring apps whenever possible.

[influenza]

The main objection of stripping out things is that you basically change the structure of the dvd. Things get relinked etc and you run the chance that things won't work anymore. This also applies to the suggestion of disabling menubuttons with menuedit.

The newly created dvd will probably work in most cases, but there's some risk involved.

When you reauthor the dvd you can also strip things, by leaving them out or replacing them with dummies. The main advantage is that you keep the opriginal dvd structure.

[Ak47]

Please let me say that I don't wish to seem argumentative, but regarding the points you raise about changing the structure of the title I feel I must comment.

When performing any backup, unless you are specifically performing a VOB-ID based backup, then you will invariably alter the structure of the original anyway. A VTS that has content differentiated by multiple VOB ID will ALWAYS resolve to a single VOB ID if you use a VTS based approach. Even if you reauthor the title with Scenarist or Maestro. Unless you specifically elect from the outset to retain existing VOB ID structure this WILL change.

The whole point of adjusted cell mode is to allow this to happen with no impact on the VTS and it's why adjusted cell mode is ideal for multi-PGC titles. All cells within the VTS are resolved to a single congruent list of cells, irrespective of PGC or VOB-ID. As long as the number and location of the cells correspond to the original, then after IFOUpdate, as far as the player is concerned, it's all good.

Regarding failure to function. Please explain to me how stripping out will cause content to "re-link". If you strip the references to the removed stream(s) from the original IFO, as IFOEdit does as they are removed, then the title is unaware of missing content within the VTS. Video_ts.ifo is also similarly adjusted by IFOEdit.

This does require a certain level of experience, and may require the use of techniques to assign correct values to the remaining content for the mux. At the end of the day it's each to his own, but I don't have a single backup that is not complete (less foreign languages). I don't consider it a backup unless it functions exactly as did the original. Furthermore, I'll put any of my backups against any other, regardless of the method used to create it.

You don't take anymore risk re: loss of function by stripping out than if you don't strip out. You just need to be able to establish which content is actually required, and which content is optional.

At the end of the day I'd suggest thet anyone interested enough give the method I describeda try... slaves to authoring apps have nothing to lose but their chains ;)

thats it.. my two-penneth over and done.

[quantum]

My first attempt. I got up to the point where I want to author in ifoedit.

Ifoedit crashes instantly with no useful information (ifoedit.exe has generated errors and will die...) as soon as I load anything via the 'Scene changes / Chapters' dialog where I'm supposed to import chapter points. I'm trying to load the ifoedit-celltimes.txt file. Apparently I can mux if I don't import the chapters, but that's not helpful...

It happens under Win2k and XP.

ideas?

I may be wasting my time with this anyway with NTSC video as discussed in this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41585) thread.

[quantum]

Like I said if you use subrip and then open the entire vobset (except for the menu file *_0.vob) you can extract the subtitles you need for either maestro or scenarist. The only time you could get into trouble with this method (out of sync subs) is when you have multiple angles. If you're ripping the whole vts set, why would you have any problem with angles? Shouldn't they fall into place automatically? If not, is there any other way?

[Ak47]

quantum.... theres a simple reason for this error... IFOEdit requires you to rename IFOEdit-Celltimes.txt to just Celltimes.txt... otherwise it WILL crash/bailout when you try to load the chapters..
I should have mentioned this but I do it without thinking now myself so I failed to mention it :rolleyes:

also re the thread you posted: it seems that NTSC may well cause you probs.. from the info in the thread I'd say that IFOEdit can't read the Flags (rtf and ttf) that pulldown enters into the file to make 23.9 encoded video play at the required dropframe rate.

However, if my guess re this is correct, you shouldn't have a prob with TRUE dropframe encoded NTSC. i.e NTSC thats actually encoded at 30fps dropframe(29.9 approx) as opposed to using pulldown to insert flags into a FILM encoded stream.

You might try a title like resident evil R1 to test this out. I have this in R1 form myself.. and If I remeber correctly it's a true Telecine transfer. I'll check and give it a blast over the next day or so and let u know how it goes.

[quantum]

Ahhh, thanks for the celltimes.txt tip. :-) It works.

At least now I can continue and see for myself about how ifoedit handles NTSC. I'll post the results here when I get them.

[jdobbs]

ak47,

was actually dreaming that the compiled cell/chapter output would onday be included...

Give me a little more info on what you want and I'll work it in.

jdobbs

[Ak47]

JDobbs:

Hello there, and thanks for your ongoing interest/developmetnt BTW. I'm a quiet but long-time fan...

The quote you mentioned has already been addressed by you for the most part, and no complaints there. I had "been dreaming" of the inclusion of what is now IFOEDIT-CELLTIMES.TXT in adjusted cell mode. I had been editing ADJUSTED-CCE.TXT to make the cell list for IFOEdit "authoring".

If you had time on a major update you could "fix" what isn't really your problem.... it's just one of those things...

IFOEdit doesn't like the filename "IFOEDIT-CELLTIMES.TXT". Celltimes.txt IS ok, in fact it's the only thing that IS ok... once you realise it, this is no prob.. I only mention because, like the chap above, it can cause an "unexplained" crash on import into IFOEdit.

IFOUpdate... still rocking.. :D

[jdobbs]

Ak47,

Yeah, the first time I used this I also found out (the hard way, of course) that IFOEDIT wasn't very forgiving of the name. The reason I named the file as I did was so it wouldn't be confused when you write a lot of different chapter-type files... it said IFOEDIT right on it! But I think I just added to the confusion.

I've renamed that file output to simply CELLTIMES.TXT on the write when using Adjusted mode and made a new minor release. The new version (v0.73) is attached.

Just FYI, the project I've just decided to start working is a utility to remerge a CCE generated video-only VOB file back into the originals while giving you the option to choose which audio/subs to keep. It's meant to work like what you've outlined here and to make it a little easier to use (like some of the one-touch packages). I also wanted to do it so I could address the troublesome FILM-on-NTSC titles that throw IFOEDIT off.

Thanks for the kind words!

jdobbs

[Ak47]

JDobbs...

many thanks... have d/l and will give a spin later..

your new project sounds v interesting... added adavantage of this method is that interactive subs should go over as well.. with 0 processing or tweaking...

I just looked at daredevil, R2.. this has "extended playback mode" like "spidersense" on spiderman... used outlined method and interactivity functions remain intact..

A one-click CCE solution would be the lad ;)

[quantum]

JDobbs, do you mean a CCE generated MPV file? I didn't think CCE makes VOBs. This sounds interesting.

Would things like button over video from the original vobs be retained?

Would the videos be broken by pgc or vobid?

So far I haven't had much luck going the ifoedit authoring route. My last attempt at doing the extras for About Schmidt had audio synch problems. It was a multi-pgc vts with shared vobid's, and it had stills. I had to reauthor in scenarist by vobid.

I'm looking forward to anything you put together. Ifoupdate is a ground-breaking and important tool. If you apply the same craftsmanship to your new concept, there's a good chance we'll have another quality tool to make our lives easier :-)

[jdobbs]

I was actually talking about a movie-only VOB that had been authored. I could merge in the MPV pretty easily, but I'd either have to make up a lot of the VOB parameters myself (I'm lazy and I have authoring software) -- or somehow guarantee that the GOPs exactly match the original.

I'll look at both ways...

Yes it would keep button-over-video, and any other subpictures that were present in the original. It could also keep the multi-angles without having to reauthor for them (as long as you use the chapter files produced by the software)

[Ak47]

Quantum:

The reasons stills cause delays is that often there's a slight mismatch between ACTUAL stills content and control info for that content in the ifo...

dvd2avi reads/writes (in d2v) actual content. IFOUpdate uses the control information. IF the ACTUAL content is 2 fields/1 frame but the control info duration is 10 frames you get 9 frames delay... but theres a workaround in the audio thread i pointed at previously.. this doesnt work for everything tho.. i'd be the first to point that out....

JDobbs: Can see where you're coming from with that...

re: retaining GOP structure intact... think the CCE "restrict auto I frame" settings etc might work... did a 50+ vts title once, with all vts 2 angle.. those settings worked 100% with all 100+ m2v streams... have never tried an IFOEdit remux after an encode with those settings... maybe I should

re: multiangle do you have to aqquire the angle content discreetly, and then effectively author a video only vobset to put the segments back in correct places in the vobset ??.. or am i way off the mark with that :D

[quantum]

I was actually talking about a movie-only VOB that had been authored. That would be fine. I'm guessing the process would be to demux the VTS by vobid (best handled by dif4u), then encode in CCE, then reauthor in Maestro or Scenarist in a single PGC? This would actually not be a lot of manual work. I assume you could also demux by VTS if the video was consistent? This sounds exactly like preparing for the 'adjusted cell mode' process. However by not dealing with audio and subs in the authoring process, you save a huge amount of time, not to mention the very big bonus of the button-over-video.

ak47: I did see the work-around you described for the audio delay. I'm not sure it would have worked in this case, the extra had still/movie/still/movie... I'm handy with Scenarist and Maestro and I tend to drop back to the tools I know when I get in trouble. Plus I like the ability to preview the video/audio to verify everything is in sync.

[jdobbs]

quantum,

Actually I could add an option to do the demux in the software -- it's a pretty simple thing to do. You would only have to demux by VOBID, though, if there are multiple angles or interleaving. If that doesn't exist you can just use DVD2AVI/AVISYNTH to feed directly into CCE, and let the utility worry about proper reconstruction (PGCs, cells, etc.) when remerging. All that really matters is for the IFRAMES to be properly located when running CCE -- the chapter/cell reference information is all in the original.

For that matter, I could make the utility fairly easily also create the DVD2AVI .AVS file as well...

[Ak47]

JDobbs:

If all you have to do is maintain the existing I-Frame structure within the GOP then restrict I-frames setting in CCE Should work no problem... just "restrict I-Frames" NOT "close GOPS"

I've just completed a test where I encoded with restrict I-frames as part of the encode parameters. The resultant m2v has just remuxed back into the original VOBSet using remux features of IFOEdit...no problemo.... The authoring features were not used... just remux.

I've checked via playback and audio/subs line up is perfect... going to test some more.. and will report back if successful

[quantum]

Jdobbs: Maybe you can educate me on what 'interleaving' means :-)

I was thinking demux by vobid for the situations such as interlaced and film mixed together but split by vobid, as with Die Another Day. Extras are another good example as they frequently have a mix of different video types that need to be processed differently in CCE.

If the video was consistent throughout the VTS then demux by VTS would obviously be easier.

Ak47: Are you saying you did a manual approach to this concept using the remuxing features of Ifoedit and it worked? Can you give a short guide on the steps that involve Ifoedit? It doesn't have to be overly detailed.

[jdobbs]

@quantum,

Yeah, you're right there -- when you have a single VTS with more than one PGC that are not all the same (FILM/NTSC) you generally have to break them out by VOBID.

A good example of interleaving is "The Matrix." There are cells from different VOBIDs that are interleaved so they can selectively be played back using common sequences for some areas and different ones for others (e.g. the "white rabbit"). The access to the different sequences can be controlled by running different PGCs which have different cell lists (rather than angle processing).

Attached is a small JPG showing an IFOUPDATE graphic of an example:

[quantum]

Thanks, that clears it up a bit. If you need a beta tester to help debug your new project, I volunteer :-) I'm also skilled in VB.

[Ak47]

JDobbs:

All I was testing really was the ability of IFOEdit to remux a CCE encoded stream.. as opposed to using the "author new DVD" functions.

Was testing to see if I could encode with CCE to meet your required criteria

"All that really matters is for the IFRAMES to be properly located when running CCE -- the chapter/cell reference information is all in the original."

Essentially just did a standard DVD2AVI/CCE encode but used "restrict auto-insertion of I-Frames" in the GOP setting page of CCE..

Then I just used "remux" in IFOEdit VOB Extras to overwrite the existing M2V with my re-compressed version... just like an old ReMpeg based remux... I've tried this before with CCE output and never had much joy.. Synch has always gone west previously.. however on this occaision remux was perfect... tried several times now with 100% result on the remux.....

[quantum]

Just tried this technique, remuxed a cce video in ifoedit and the resulting video was very stuttery. I doubt this technique will work for NTSC video that requires pulldown.

[jdobbs]

I've done it with NTSC/Pulldown in the past. It worked, but the clock on the standalone player during playback went crazy (jumping around all over). I did the same thing: created an exceptionally long chapter list that included every GOP and stopped CCE auto I-Frame insertion.

It works fine with interlaced NTSC...

Maybe all I really need to do is create a utility that goes back and corrects it -- or just does the same function with the correction for pulldown...

[quantum]

created an exceptionally long chapter list that included every GOP I didn't do this step. How did you go about getting a gop list? I'll give it another shot if I can get the gops in there since it worked for you. Maybe I had something set wrong in ifoedit. I'm still not sure about some of those ifoedit switches :-)

[Ak47]

I've completed a little more testing on the I-Frames/remux of CCE etc.. had multiple successes and then failure.... on the failure the main symptom seemed to be playback of I-Frames only... sort of jumping stills... with audio and subs in synch btw...

bitrate viewer reveals slight difference between streams.. scene detection active in the failure.... other aspects of the 2 streams are identical... DCT precision + Nominal Bitrates are different also... but I'm confident that bitrate settings have little to do with it.. have varied precision/bitrates on successful runs to check and remux goes NP regardless..

Going to hit some progressive and NTSC stuff as time allows.. and will post anything useful...

Successful Remux of CCE
=======================

Num. of picture read: 901
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*576
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Interlaced
Scene change detection: NOT FOUND
Variable GOP pattern: NOT FOUND
Notes:

Failed Remux of CCE
===================

Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*576
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 8900000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 9
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Interlaced
Scene change detection: FOUND
Variable GOP pattern: NOT FOUND
Notes:

I've completed more testing in relation to this and my conclusion is that there's no way you can depend on CCE output to remux in... even from a video-only VOB.

it will mux in everytime when the authoring functions are utilised.. but the same stream just won't remux with any reliability.....

[TuRiSOft]

@Ak47

What about BOV using your method ?

I can't figure out how to recreate the highlight stream and make the buttons functionally 'cause the "Set to GPRM , LinkTail PGC commands" and buttons are stored into original VOBs as you know.

So how do you handle that?

I read (and printed out) all the thread and found nothing about that!