RealAudio Multi-channel

[karl_lillevold]

RealAudio Multi-channel
The new RealAudio Multi-channel flavors are all based on RA8 (4cc:cook), the excellent audio codec developed by my colleague Ken Cooke. The multi-channel work was done by another colleague of mine, Wolfgang Schildbach. The work is complete enough to start using now with the latest Milestone Helix DNA Producer 9.2 available from the Helix Community.

Codec flavors

flavor bitrate #ch bitrate allocations
30 : 96 kbps (5 ch) 32s + 32s + 32m
31 : 128 kbps (6 ch) 44s + 44s + 32m + 8m
32 : 180 kbps (6 ch) 64s + 64s + 44m + 8m
33 : 264 kbps (6 ch) 96s + 64s + 96m + 8m
The bitrate allocation notation is:
Front(Right/Left) + Rear(Right/Left) + Center + Sub : s=stereo, m=mono
The front and rear pairs are encoded using cook stereo, the center using cook mono, and the sub using a custom cook mono codec.

See https://producerapps.helixcommunity.org/cmdproducer/docs/AudienceFile.htm#Audio_Codec_Tables for more details.

How to encode
Producer has to have a 5.1 channel file as input. There are a couple of options to go about achieving this.

option 0)
AutoRV10 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29077) has native multi-channel support [7/20/2003].

option 1) You can encode from an Avisynth 2.5x script just like before, but the WAV file has to be a 5.1 channel wav file (WAVEFORMATEX). I just tested BeSweet1.5b18 with option -6chwav *) to convert from AC3 to WAV, and Producer was able to read this WAV file, both by itself and as WAVSource in an AviSynth script.
*) "BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "input.ac3" -output "output.wav" -6chwav -logfilea "BeSweet.log" ) -azid( -z1 -b1 --maximize )

Note that Besweet can not write WAV files larger than 2GB. For samples longer than about 1hr one has to use 6 separate waves as discussed in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57243), and include this in the avs script:

AuFL =WAVSource("ac3test-FL.wav")
AuFR =WAVSource("ac3test-FR.wav")
AuC =WAVSource("ac3test-C.wav")
AuLFE=WAVSource("ac3test-LFE.wav")
AuSL =WAVSource("ac3test-SL.wav")
AuSR =WAVSource("ac3test-SR.wav")
Audio=MergeChannels(AuFL,AuFR,AuC,AuLFE,AuSL,AuSR)

Alternatively, use HeadAC3he to convert from AC3 to the WAV used as WavSource in AviSynth. This does not appear to have any problems creating > 2GB WAV files. Thanks to TFC for noticing this.

option 2) The other method is to install ac3filter 0.69b, set this to 3/2+LFE 5.1 Speaker output, and specify two separate input files in a producer job file (example next post). One input file is the AC3 file, the other can be an AVI file or Avisynth script (without audio). Since Producer reads its inputs via DirectShow, ac3filter will then decode 5.1 channels on the fly to Producer, which will encode 5.1 channels natively in Real-Audio Multi-Channel

Playback
For testing purposes that your encodes play back correctly, RealOne V2 can be enabled for multi-channel playback with two DLL replacements and two reg keys. These are available from the Helix Community (https://distribution.helixcommunity.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=131) "RealAudio Multi-channel playback DLLs". Read the readme.txt! Also, D-C made a nice installer with Win98 support (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=352054#post352054). No support except via feedback here. You will need a soundcard with 6 outputs and 6 speakers connected for the best effect, but downmixing to two channels/speakers works as well.

Examples
Audio only multi-channel test 128 kbps (http://www.lillevold.com/files/ra5.1/multichannel.rm)

Future work
The new bitstream format for multi-channel was written in such a way we expect future improvements, like adaptive bit sloshing between the channels, effectively making it CBR over-all, but VBR internally between the channels.

Q&A

General
1) In the documentation I see whrl listed as codec flavor. Why?
The 4cc code changed from whrl to cook. If you see whrl in the documentation, ignore, and use cook instead.

Playback related problems

1) I am trying to play back multi-channel RealAudio, but RealOne keeps telling me my system is "Out of Memory", and I have 4 GB of memory. Do I need to buy more memory?
You have not updated DLLs (yes, the error message is not correct, you have plenty of memory).

2) My clip sounds like it's playing underwater, very very sloowly.
You may not have entered reg keys included in zip file.

3) MPC no longer works.
Gabest's Media Player Classic has been updated to work with these DLLs. The the latest MPC version.

Issues when encoding from separate AC3 file and video source

1) The sound levels are very low. What can I do?
Audio gain pre-filter does not yet work with RealAudio Multi-Channel. BeSweet conversion with normalization works well. Gain control in ac3filter is another option.

2) I used 'Trim' in my Avisynth script to test encode just a short clip, but Producer encodes the full length AC3 file. What is the problem?
If you use 'Trim' in your Avisynth script for video, producer will still encode your entire AC3 file. Instead of Trim in Avisynth, use DVD2AVI to extract only a portion of the source.

3) Producer seems to encode audio and video separately, doing the audio track first, or there is only silence. What's wrong?
Versions 0.64b through 0.68b of ac3filter do not work correctly as input to Producer. Please get the latest version 0.69b.


4) Why am I getting error message related to video codec 04VR? everything in my job file appears to be correct.
When asking producer to encode using your job file producer -j myjobfile.rpjf -lc w,i,d,e (the -lc option is for diagnostic messages) the error message is:

Error: Failed to initialize video codec 04VR
Error: Job failed to start encoding
Error: Encoding failed!

This is a misleading error message. It probably means that ac3filter's Output->Speakers setting is not set to 3/2+LFE 5.1. Open AC3Filter Config and change this.

5) Encoding from separate sources, AC3 being one of them, producer fails to read the AC3 file.
If you have Gabest's VSFilter.dll registered for sub-titles, try to unregister this. VSFilter.dll is known to cause this failure, most likely due to an incompatibility between its auto-loading feature and producer.

[karl_lillevold]

Using the method of separate input files for audio (AC3) and video (Avisynth). Edit this with your favorite text or XML editor, save to myjobfile.rpjf (or any extension). Let me know if you have an XML editor that works well :)

Run with producer -j myjobfile.rpjf -lc w,i,d,e

The -lc (logging category) options are w=warning, i=information, d=diagnostics, and e=error messages. Producer's output is also placed in the producer.log file. Sometimes very handy. Even more information (too much) can be logged by having an empty file called debug.txt in the same folder as producer.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<job xmlns="http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0"
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:schemaLocation="http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0
http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0.xsd">

<!-- example job file for encoding RealAudio Multi-Channel
using separate sources for video and audio : in this
case video is coming from an Avisynth script with no
audio. Audio is coming from an AC3 file -->

<enableTwoPass type="bool">true</enableTwoPass>
<parInputs>
<input xsi:type="avFileInput">
<filename type="string">input_video.avs</filename>
<disableAudio type="bool">true</disableAudio>
</input>
<input xsi:type="avFileInput">
<filename type="string">input_audio AC3 DELAY 18ms.ac3</filename>
<disableVideo type="bool">true</disableVideo>
<prefilters>
<prefilter xsi:type="audioDelayCompPrefilter">
<pluginName type="string">rn-prefilter-audiodelaycomp</pluginName>
<delay type="duration">0.018</delay>
<!-- use advance for negative delay -->
<!-- <advance type="duration">0.018</advance> -->
</prefilter>
</prefilters>
</input>
</parInputs>

<parOutputs>
<output>
<destinations>
<destination xsi:type="fileDestination">
<filename type="string">output_filename.rmvb</filename>
</destination>
</destinations>
<mediaProfile>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<disableAudio type="bool">false</disableAudio>
<disableVideo type="bool">false</disableVideo>
<outputHeight type="uint">720</outputHeight>
<outputWidth type="uint">304</outputWidth>
<resizeQuality type="string">high</resizeQuality>
<videoMode type="string">normal</videoMode>
<audienceRefs>
<audienceRef>My Audience</audienceRef>
</audienceRefs>
</mediaProfile>
</output>
</parOutputs>

<audiences>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">750000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">1600000</maxBitrate>
<name type="string">My Audience</name>

<streams>
<stream xsi:type="videoStream">
<pluginName type="string">rn-videocodec-realvideo</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">rv9</codecName>
<!-- EHQ settings for RV9 -->
<codecProperties type="bag">
<encoderComplexity type="uint">80</encoderComplexity>
<customPacketSize type="uint">16000</customPacketSize>
</codecProperties>
<encodingType type="string">vbrBitrate</encodingType>
<quality type="uint">1</quality>
<maxStartupLatency type="double">25</maxStartupLatency>
<maxFrameRate type="double">30</maxFrameRate>
<maxKeyFrameInterval type="double">10</maxKeyFrameInterval>
<enableLossProtection type="bool">false</enableLossProtection>
</stream>
<stream xsi:type="audioStream">
<codecFlavor type="uint">32</codecFlavor>
<codecName type="string">cook</codecName>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-realaudio</pluginName>
<streamContext type="bag">
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<presentationType type="string">audio-video</presentationType>
</streamContext>
</stream>

</streams>
</audience>

</audiences>
</job>

[ChristianHJW]

Cute ! Powerful 5.1 codecs popping up everywhere, making it possible to use bitrates which were used for MP3 Stereo for a long long time :D !!

Karl, did we tell you that we will create an educational project called rv2mkv soon :D ?? ....

[karl_lillevold]

EDIT first post: Added download link for RealOne V2 replacement DLLs to enable multi-channel playback on DirectSound enabled soundcards. Added option 1) for encoding from WAVEFORMATEX source WAV file, by itself, or from Avisynth script. Added one audio only example.

[itsme_4ucz]

The link gives me this message


Your account does not have the "Project Document - View" permission needed for you to access the page you requested in the distribution project (view your permissions). Either ask the project administrator for more permission, or log in using a different account.

You are currently logged in as itsme_4ucz.
:( :( :(

[31 Flavas]

You need to agree to the binary EULA and RPSL.

Login to Helix Community normally and click the link on the left that says (licensees only!).

[SeeMoreDigital]

Karl,

I currently have Helix Producer 9.0.1.250 installed, along with the Elecard Mpeg2 player and AC3 filter v0.68b

With this setup I find encoding .vob files to RMV9 very easy to do.

Will I experience any problems if I switch from my current .ac3 filter to the older 0.63b version with my current Helix Producer setup? As it took me quite a while to get the correct AC3 Filter to work in the first place! Or should I really be upgrading to Helix Producer 9.2 M4 (for WinXP Pro)?

I am fairly new to RealMedia encoding (6weeks or so) and find the HelixCommunity website a bit confusing (something that's not a problem, I'm suppose, for long time RealMedia users) so I'm not quite sure how to upgrade!

That said, I did manage to install the 'surround sound' DLL files for the RealMedia player. So can now listen to 6Ch surround sound. Well the 'Avia' test file at least........

Thanks

[karl_lillevold]

@SeeMoreDigital : thanks for venturing into unknown territory!

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I currently have Helix Producer 9.0.1.250 installed, along with the Elecard Mpeg2 player and AC3 filter v0.68b

With this setup I find encoding .vob files to RMV9 very easy to do.

Encoding directly from MPEG-2/AC3 is not always easy to make work reliably, due to different MPEG-2 DirectShow filters having various quirks, resulting on a/v sync problems or jitter. You also have to have an AC3 file with just one audio track, since there is no way to select the right one when encoding. I am glad you got it working though.
Will I experience any problems if I switch from my current .ac3 filter to the older 0.63b version with my current Helix Producer setup? As it took me quite a while to get the correct AC3 Filter to work in the first place! Or should I really be upgrading to Helix Producer 9.2 M4 (for WinXP Pro)?

I am fairly new to RealMedia encoding (6weeks or so) and find the HelixCommunity website a bit confusing (something that's not a problem, I'm suppose, for long time RealMedia users) so I'm not quite sure how to upgrade!

Sorry about the web site being confusing. There are a lot of projects, mailing lists, and information to cram into one site. Suggestions for how to make it easier to navigate will be forwarded to the right people.

To try out Producer 9.2 M4 is very easy. It is just a zip file that expands into a folder with command line tools. Use a zip program that preserves the directory structure. Do not expand on top of the GUI Producer you already have. Using the command line tool has a rather steep learning curve, but the documentation in the docs folder is pretty good. However, there are plenty of GUI front-ends, and most of the ones I have mentioned in the main RV9 Info post come with their own command line producer versions, of various age. In order to use the very latest Milestone with those, just replace their producer version with the one from the latest zip file.

I am not yet sure what is the problem with AC3 filter 0.64b and higher. I looked at the changelog, and did not spot anything too suspicious. When I tried to use 0.64b (and higher) and separate AC3 file and Avisynth script as input to Producer, Producer insisted on encoding the AC3 file first, instead of both audio and video at the same time, and it did not work. I tried to contact the ac3filter author for advice, but his mailbox was full. I had no problems changing ac3filter version though.
If you prefer to stay with 0.68b, and you do try to encode using the job file method and separate A / V inputs, it would be really helpful if you have time to see if it works for you or not, experiment with a few settings if it does not.

That said, I did manage to install the 'surround sound' DLL files for the RealMedia player. So can now listen to 6Ch surround sound. Well the 'Avia' test file at least........

That's good to know. Encoding is next then!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hello again Karl

I think I've managed to install the 'producer.exe' the 'rmeditor.exe' and the 'rmevents.exe', using the command line.

But what do I do with all the other folders (audiences, codecs, common, docs, plugins etc) and the dll's (pncrt, pnrs3260 & prodctrl) that are still in the new unzipped 'Producer' folder.

Do I just delete the old folders under 'Program Files\Real\Helix Producer Plus' and replace them with these new ones?

[karl_lillevold]

Maybe I don't fully understand your question. The Helix Producer 9.2 command line is not compatible with the Helix Producer GUI 9.0.1, even though the output RM files are backwards compatible. You have to unzip Producer 9.2 into its own folder. If you did unzip on top of the old GUI, I am afraid you have to re-install the GUI Producer.

karl wrote:

To try out Producer 9.2 M4 is very easy. It is just a zip file that expands into a folder with command line tools. Use a zip program that preserves the directory structure. Do not expand on top of the GUI Producer you already have. Using the command line tool has a rather steep learning curve, but the documentation in the docs folder is pretty good. However, there are plenty of GUI front-ends , and most of the ones I have mentioned in the main RV9 Info post come with their own command line producer versions, of various age. In order to use the very latest Milestone with those, just replace their producer version with the one from the latest zip file.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Oh, so you are saying that 9.2 M4 is not an upgrade for 9.1 (without a setup .exe).

So, I can't use Helix Producer 9.2 using the familiar Helix Producer front end (GUI) that I am used too.

If that's right..... It's a shame as I quite like the Helix Producer GUI!

And I can assure you, it's not you who does not fully understand - it's me..... That's what happens when you suffer from severe beer depravation!

[Sirber]

There is other GUI supporting 9.2M4 not mentionning mine :D

[bill_baroud]

it's a bit OT, but with all the work of Karl on rv9 and Sirber's advertising ( :p ), it picked my curiosity to give another chance to RV9 after my first mitigated try (with the beta producer, yeah ...)

I have to say that Job file just kickass ... it's sooo more easy to copy a Karl's one and modify the options you need (not that hard, with the doc) and run it with the cli :) No gui can beat Notepad :sly: !

instead of searching a not-that-good-and-confusing-gui i'll suggest to take 10min to study karl's jobfiles, it's not that hard, and saved me from headache (rv9 is really confusing and very different from well-know tools ;) )


( very OT, for the quality, at 1mbits vbr, ehq & dup, it didn't hit the quality i wanted for that clip (at 10mb) ... but there is still 7mb for improvement (xvid clip) )

so, big thanks to Karl to spend some time on the "anime" tweaking of RV9, as i encode exclusively anime, i'm really looking forward to an "anime" dedicated codec ;)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sirber,

How do I find your GUI. I tried your website link but it's dead?

[Sirber]

Link tested and working. Look in my thread.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sirber,

Where is your thread?

All I can find is 'StarWars Kid' and a link to the 'RealMedia' web site!

Sorry mate but I feel as bright as a 'one watt bulb' tonight!

He He!

[31 Flavas]

i believe sirber is talking about his "Anime Encoding GUI (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56576)" thread. 4th thread from the last sticky, currently.

[Sirber]

my website link héhéhé :) I don't have a website! Use the link provided by 31 Flavas. Sorry, I wanted to post it but I was in a hurry.

Have fun!

[karl_lillevold]

Editing a jobfile and using 'producer -j jobfile' is ultimately the most flexible mechanism, like bill_baroud mentioned, but it requires some documentation reading, and editing an XML file is not always what you want to do before starting a late night encode.

Here are a few alternatives from the RV9 Info thread, none including Multi-channel yet though. All of these tools create an audience file, and call producer with the right cmd line parameters:
3rd Party Utilities
AutoRV9 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29077) [ Dark-Cracker ]
rmfactory (http://www.zedude.fr.st/) [ zedude ]
x2real (http://www.lalternative.org/x2real/) [ akabob ]
RealAnime (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56576) [ Sirber ]
Helix Producer GUI (http://helixproducergui.fr.st/) [ TFC ]

I don't want to recommend one over another. The two first are easy to use to set up a job when the source is d2v/ac3. x2real a wizard like tool. Helix Producer GUI is more general, and includes both an AviSynth generator and an audience file editor. Sirber's RealAnime, very convenient for batch encodes of multiple files, all fileformats, but not the most flexible in terms of bitrate adjustments and audio codec flavors.

Remember to enable EHQ. It's not default in these tools, except RealAnime. For instance in Helix Producer GUI, you have to enable it via the Audience editor (the button with the Helix Producer icon). The other tools have pulldown menus etc. Hmm, perhaps I should recommend making EHQ 80 default. I would not encode without, but I do have a speedy computer, so I am a little spoiled. The reg key over-ride is convenient to always use EHQ 80. See this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55193).

Off-topic, and more info later, but there is a Producer ActiveX control that will be a great choice for VB programmers of GUIs to use instead of producer command line. Then it will for instance be possible to get video preview while encoding. The ActiveX control will also require an audience and/or a job file, so the changes to your VB programs should not be too large.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hey Hey!

Karl, your last post knocked a brain cell into gear and I'm happy to report that I am now able to encode RM9 files with surround sound.

I decided to install the Helix Producer GUI [TFC] option. As I have a fully paid up version of 'Elecard Mpeg2 Player' I could not see the point of converting raw vob files to d2v/ac3 pointer files etc, and having to install yet more applications.

It's also worth making a point that older ac3filter v0.63b works with both the 'original' Helix Producer 9.1 & 'new' Helix Producer 9.2 M4 (As long as you make sure to select the 'Use WaveOut' option in the ac3 filter settings). So there really is no need to use ac3filter v0.68b.

Another thing that may be of interest to some people is, that if you have a 'Ligos Mpeg2' encoder/filter installed on your system, neither the v9.1 or v9.2 will encode the video properly - so stick with the Elecard.

It's a good job I created a multiboot PC a few months ago. As I ended up having to format and reinstall my dedicated 'RealMedia' boot drive partition (which only takes around an hour to do). Anyway it's working better than ever now!

Karl, may I ask you a couple more questions. When will the new RealOne player be launched that will play surround sound files 'out of the box' so to speak? And will there be an update for Helix Producer 9.1 to 9.2?

Thanks for having the patience to answer my posts. I hope my questions helped other people out there who may have been too embarrassed to ask them!

Thanks again.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

When will the new RealOne player be launched that will play surround sound files 'out of the box' so to speak? When it is ready. ;)

That will be within 2003, though.

(BTW, i'm not an authority nor an insider, just rehashing what has already been said.)

And will there be an update for Helix Producer 9.1 to 9.2? For Helix Producer GUI basic, yes. Just delete 9.1 and download the new basic Helix Producer, when it is released.

For Helix Community CLI encoder, yes. Just log in and download the latest version, when it is released.

For Helix Producer GUI _paid version_, only, if you buy or have an already existing and not expired "service and support" contract (They are $80, btw). Actually, you get all new versions released during your "service and support" contract. Also, you can the next version if it is released within 30 days of your inital GUI purchase.

(This is what I know from having bought 9.0.1 Gold)

[karl_lillevold]

@SeeMoreDigital: Thanks for your feedback. if by "surround" you meant true multi-channel and not our prevous 2-channel dolby surround support, then congatulations! You were the first to report success in using the new codec flavors!

I will see if choosing wavout may help ac3filter 0.68b work better, but will also find some time to debug the problem with v0.68b.

R1P launch date: sorry ;)

And will there be an update for Helix Producer 9.1 to 9.2?Producer 9.1 was a cmd line tool as well. Or perhaps you are asking about an update to the last released GUI tool? If so, none are planned in the immediate future, but SDK licensees (professional video editing tools) will release updates, and more importantly, the GUI front-ends based on Helix will get more advanced rapidly, especially when they adopt the forthcoming Producer ActiveX control, which will for instance allow video preview.

[karl_lillevold]

there is a slight problem encoding multi-channel content. It turns out Avisynth can not read WAV files larger than 2GB (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57243). Producer happens to have the same problem. So, for now, the only option when encoding long multi-channel samples, is to use option 2) in the first post, separate inputs for audio and video in a job file, where the audio source is an AC3 file, and video AVI or Avisynth script.

[TFC]

Well....
I personnaly start a movie encoding with a 3.69Go wav file in multi-channel.....Didn't encounter any pb :)

I'm really interested by Activex control, plz give me a link :)

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by TFC
I personnaly start a movie encoding with a 3.69Go wav file in multi-channel.....Didn't encounter any pb :)

I'm really interested by Activex control, plz give me a link :)
I don't know how you managed to do this, both Avisynth and Producer uses old style non-OpenDML functions to open WAV files, and it should not be possible. There may be some work-around like using multiple 1ch wav files, or AC3Source in Avisynth. I will find out.

Re ActiveX control: https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/ActiveX/index.htm

[Wilbert]

If you are talking about the AC3Source plugin: it decodes and downmixes an AC3 stream to a two channel wav.

[karl_lillevold]

@Wilbert: thanks! no need to try AC3Source then. Will try separate wav files, like you suggested.

[TFC]

What pb did u get??
I made my wav with HeadAC3.....

For the activex....still can't find a way to dl it :( :( i tried the helix producer SDK from realnetwork, and the one from helix community.....Not distributed with activex :( :( :(
There's only a prodctrl.dll in the milestone 4 sdk, but no helixprodctrl.dll, prodctrl.dll doesn't seems to be the activex control.... Maybe i'm wrong tell me

Where is that file???

[karl_lillevold]

Yes, oddly enough, the +3GB wave file made with headac3he appears to work as input to Avisynth and then used as source to Producer, but the wave file does not work when used as the only input to Producer.

However, it does not behave quite right in Avisynth.. when I play the Avisynth script in mpc, there is sound only until about 1 hr 3 min, I am guessing roughly at the 2GB point. Still, Producer obtained sound all the way through.

But no luck with Besweet -> 5.1 wave -> Avisynth. For Besweet one has to use 6 separate waves as discussed in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57243), and include something like this in the script:

AuFL =WAVSource("ac3test-FL.wav")
AuFR =WAVSource("ac3test-FR.wav")
AuC =WAVSource("ac3test-C.wav")
AuLFE=WAVSource("ac3test-LFE.wav")
AuSR =WAVSource("ac3test-SR.wav")
AuSL =WAVSource("ac3test-SL.wav")

Audio=MergeChannels(AuFL,AuFR,AuC,AuLFE,AuSR,AuSL)

Note the channel order used for the MergeChannels function. This corresponds to the WAVE-FORMAT-EXTENSIBLE specificiation (http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/~jpff/NOS-DREAM/researchdev/wave-ex/wave_ex.html). Will update first post.

[TFC]

Yeah HeadAC3 rulez :D :D
I don't understand why u don't have sound all the way in Media player :confused:

mmmh stupid question...did you format your partition in FAT32 or NTFS?


++

TFC

[karl_lillevold]

NTFS of course :) headac3he is just not as easily scriptable as Besweet.

[TFC]

Strange strange :confused:

But if that works in producer no matter what happen in media player :D

[karl_lillevold]

If you read this thread before, you will remember how newer versions than ac3filter than 0.63b did not work as source filters for Producer. The good news is that the latest version of ac3filter, 0.69b, works fine again! I am not sure what fixed the problem (I tried both new options WAVEFORMATEXT and Jitter Correction on and off without any effect). However, as long as it is working again.. :cool:

[S_O]

I´m a bit confused at the moment:
Are the flavors already shifted down?
Here they are already:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/9.2Release/index.htm#25_RealAudio_Multi-Channel_Audio_Codec
But directly there is a link to this xls-file containing a complete audio-codec/bitrate/samplerate/channel list (yes complete!!! From 14_4 over dnet to ralf): https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/AudienceFile/AudienceDefaults.xls
that says something different, that there is also a 64kbps 4ch-mode? What is now the correct information, what you posted here, in the 9.2 specs or the codec-list?

Edit: Is "Gecko" = COOK? Is ralf (real audio lossless) already supported? Is this codec also named "Gecko"?

Edit2: What happens if multi-channel flavour is set, but input is stereo in producer?

[karl_lillevold]

sorry about the confusion. Let me clarify:
in Milestone 4 the flavors are

30 : 64 kbps (4 ch)
31 : 96 kbps (5 ch) 32s + 32s + 32m
32 : 128 kbps (6 ch) 44s + 44s + 32m + 8m
33 : 180 kbps (6 ch) 64s + 64s + 44m + 8m
34 : 264 kbps (6 ch) 96s + 64s + 96m + 8m

This is also what the Audience spreadsheet says.

However, this has already changed in current builds, and will become, like the spec says:

30 : 96 kbps (5 ch) 32s + 32s + 32m
31 : 128 kbps (6 ch) 44s + 44s + 32m + 8m
32 : 180 kbps (6 ch) 64s + 64s + 44m + 8m
33 : 264 kbps (6 ch) 96s + 64s + 96m + 8m


So the spreadsheet needs updating. I will send the request the right way for this. Thanks!

Note that the decoder does not use the flavor number to decide how to decode the bitstream, so anything encoded with any of the flavors numbers (incl the 64 kbps version) in Producer M4 will be decodable in the future. The only problem is that the flavor number is used to display the bitrate in the audio stats in the player, and this will be incorrectly displayed for RA Multi-channel encoded with M4, even though it will play back just fine.

Hope this helps.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by S_O
Edit: Is "Gecko" = COOK? Is ralf (real audio lossless) already supported? Is this codec also named "Gecko"?
Gecko is codename for cook.
ralf can not yet be played back in current players.
ralf is entirely different, not related to cook.

Originally posted by S_O
Edit2: What happens if multi-channel flavour is set, but input is stereo in producer?
Encoding will fail with a confusing error message about 04VR video codec can not be initialized. This error message will be fixed in next Milestone, but encoding will still fail. Multi-channel flavors need multi-channel input.

[S_O]

180kbps and 264kbps? Not 192kbps and 256kbps like in the producer spec?

Edit:

ralf is entirely different, not related to cook.So the codename "Gecko" is wrong?

Encoding will fail with a confusing error message about 04VR video codec can not be initialized. This error message will be fixed in next Milestone, but encoding will still fail. Multi-channel flavors need multi-channel input.Sure, I yust want to know if you notice during encoding when multi-channel doesn´t work. A error message is good.

Edit2: So there is no 4ch-flavour anymore?

Thank you very much for all the very fast information.

[karl_lillevold]

good point! I listed in the total bitrates that the current channel allocations add up to. However, since the bitstream format allows the rate allocations to change (even dynamically) the spec is rounded to a nice round*) number. (*) "round" in computer sense

[karl_lillevold]

oh my you keep editing your questions:
ralf is not gecko. Did you see this anywhere?
There is currently no 4 channel flavor.

[S_O]

good point! I listed in the total bitrates that the current channel allocations add up to. However, since the bitstream format allows the rate allocations to change (even dynamically) the spec is rounded to a nice round*) number. (*) "round" in computer senseBut it is CBR, not VBR? So there is a real bitrate. How many samples contains one frame and how big is it? Or is that dynamically?
ralf is not gecko. Did you see this anywhere?
Yes, in the xls-codeclist.
What is "end-custumor-name" name of the codec? Gecko or COOK? For me Gecko sounds more custumor-like.

Hopefully I didn´t forgot anything :D

[karl_lillevold]

It's CBR for now, but it is my understanding the bitstream allows the bits to be sloshed around between the channels over time. This "VBR-feature" is not yet implemented. That's all I can answer without having asked my audio colleague, who developed the multi-channel changes, but he is out of office for a while.

Thanks for pointing out another mistake in the spreadsheet. I already spoke with right person to have it corrected. ralf is its own codec, not related to anything else, and one of the most efficient lossless audio codecs available.

[karl_lillevold]

AutoRV9 1.3b3 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29077) now has native multi-channel support. Thanks, D-C!

In other RA Multi-channel news, Producer Milestone 5 is out, and the multi-channel codec flavor numbers changed:

flavor bitrate #ch bitrate allocations
30 : 96 kbps (5 ch) 32s + 32s + 32m
31 : 128 kbps (6 ch) 44s + 44s + 32m + 8m
32 : 180 kbps (6 ch) 64s + 64s + 44m + 8m
33 : 264 kbps (6 ch) 96s + 64s + 96m + 8m
The bitrate allocation notation is:
Front(Right/Left) + Rear(Right/Left) + Center + Sub : s=stereo, m=mono
If you encoded anything with the old flavor numbers, that's fine, and the clips will play back flawlessly, since decoding is not based one the flavor number. The only "problem" is that the player statistics will display the wrong information for the audio codec, since it looks up the information based on the flavor number.

[31 Flavas]

I thought i'd chime in here; I just made my first rv9 rip using 5.1 RA. Animatrix "Final Flight of the Osirus" was the lucky video!

Hehe, to say the least, i'm very happy with the resulting audio :). But, the audio sometimes will just stop playing even though the video continues to play perfectly normal (not unexpected for pre-release code). If I fast forward or rewind a few seconds the audio will start to work again, though. Did anyone else encounter this problem?

I encoded the audio and video seperatly and played them back toghter with a .smil file. I went the .AC3+AC3Filter route to encode the audio @ cook 33.

Great work! Please pass my compliments along!

[Sirber]

To do that, you need to set AC3 filter in MPC to 5.1, stop MPC then encode?

[31 Flavas]

:confused: I don't understand your question.

To get the RA 5.1 audio I just set AC3Filter (0.69b) in the control panel to 3/2+SW 5.1 Channel and feed the .ac3 to producer. The video was encoded seperatly. Both were played back using a .smil file in RealOne.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by 31 Flavas
I thought i'd chime in here; I just made my first rv9 rip using 5.1 RA. Animatrix "Final Flight of the Osirus" was the lucky video!

Hehe, to say the least, i'm very happy with the resulting audio :). But, the audio sometimes will just stop playing even though the video continues to play perfectly normal (not unexpected for pre-release code). If I fast forward or rewind a few seconds the audio will start to work again, though. Did anyone else encounter this problem?

I encoded the audio and video seperatly and played them back toghter with a .smil file. I went the .AC3+AC3Filter route to encode the audio @ cook 33.

Great work! Please pass my compliments along!
Nice choice of test material. Suffice to say, I showed my test material in a mini movie theater setting, with a 30 ft projector screen and a THX sound system. RV9-EHQ video at full anamorphic resolution with RA 5.1 was quite an experience.

I do not know what your audio stop problems could be caused by, I have not had any such problems, or heard of it either. Maybe some DLL incompatibility issue with RealOne V2, along with SMIL separate audio/video. I always encode audio along with video, and I have not yet tried the flavor you used either. I'll add it to my list of things to do.

I will pass along your compliments to Wolfgang and Ken, unless they have already read this thread :)

[Sirber]

I'm making my first test with RA5.1. Producer 9.2M4 crash but 9.2M5 is fine. My plan is:

Input:
DIVX5 @ 3000kbps, full DVD PAL rez
AC3 5.1
SSA
AVI

Output:
RV9 @ 380kbps
RA 5.1 @128kbps
SSA
MKV

I'll post my results.

[Sirber]

5.1 encoded from a AC3/AVI isn't playing correctly.

[S_O]

Why don´t you demux the ac3, encode it to rm, and then encode the video (without audio). Then you have to rm files you can mux to matroska (with the subs).
For people using rm(vb)-container, is there any way to mux into it without reencoding? I know there is ffmpeg, but the rm-files it outputs are not seekable (with Sirber´s filters they are, but not with RealOne). Also I don´t know if it handles RV9 correctly with remuxing.

[Sirber]

Producer don't like 6channel wave on my computer. AC3/AVI works now. I forgot to uncheck 1-pass normalization :D

[edit]

To have audio only encoding, use:

<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>

instead of:

<presentationType type="string">audio-video</presentationType>