Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah & Copyright Law Enforcements

[bilu]

As stated in Doom9 news page:


Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah seems to support development of software to remotely destroy computers of copyright offenders only then to publish a sort-of retraction statement the day after the initial statement.


Now just for fun read this on Slashdot:

Senator Orrin Hatch a Pirate?
http://slashdot.org/articles/03/06/20/0046237.shtml?tid=103&tid=185&tid=99

This one is also fun, I hope not to be braking rules: Senator's page had a link to a porn site, see this posts:

edit: sorry I had to remove the links, I think you know why.

Bilu

[FredThompson]

About a year ago a Representative from a town near me in North Carolina sponsored a bill to permit P2P attacks by copyright holders.

What amazes me is how utterly ignorant these people are. Even John Edwards, the trial lawyer pretty-boy who made an obscene amount of money attacking the tobacco companies replied to me about the rights of copyright holders.

Well, by definition, in the United States, EVERYTHING is copyrighted unless explicitly stated otherwise. If this kind of thing makes it to law, the entire Internet is instantly nullified in the United States. Why? Well, anyone could claim they think any other party has stolen their stuff then go hack into the supposed culprit's computers.

Let's forget for a moment that this is considered a terrorist activity by the US and focus on what happens when anyone can hack into your computers with no possibility of legal responsibility.

The largest commercial activity quickly becomes legally-sanctioned espionage of all entities who have an Internet connection. The only way to keep your competitors from reading your confidential files is to disconnect from the Internet completely. (Gee, we were just looking for that copyrighted document we thought he had but, lookee here, copies of all the business proposals they have. Let's steal all those customers...Lookee here, medical records...)

In one fell swoop, an arrogant, clueless, (bribed????) group of lawmakers destroy all semblance of law and force an entire country back into pre-1950s business methods.

Since it's also currently the major stable economic power of the world, they destroy the complete world economy. Anything electronic has to stop unless it's got incredible amounts of encryption and assurity.

It's one of the most irresponsible concepts imaginable.

"We'll remove due process and allow vigilante destruction of any computer on the basis of suspicion by copyright holders."

More destructive than any weapon known to man.

[bilu]

Well, anyone could claim they think any other party has stolen their stuff

Like the SCO vs IBM & Linux case... it looks extremely ridiculous but Sun is trying to take advantage over IBM by spreading FUD over this.

http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SCOvsIBM

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6956&mode=thread&order=0


Bilu

PS: Copyright owner's destroying laws comes just after NAT and honeypot prohibitions... I'm not American, so I don't know if it happens in all the states but you get the general idea :rolleyes: .

Probably it would be illegal for you to defend yourself, one of these days firewalls without an official backdoor for copyright surveillance will be prohibited :sly:

[FredThompson]

I think it's just another aspect of how true freedom of information is totally changing power structures in the world. A lot of people here were all trying to claim credit for the "fall" of Communism but try to hang on to their little fiefdoms as information has become more available here.

It's really hard to have any kind of power based on restriction of information now. Hatch isn't a bad person, he's just too old and too removed from society to understand what's happening. The change in our society because of this is happening so rapidly that people like Hatch can't see it and have no history to compare it to.

It's a similar type of political system change, relatively bloodless and quite fast. Things will probably get really hot in the next 10-15 years when our welfare laws try to tax young people at 75-80%.

[bilu]

Originally posted by FredThompson
Hatch isn't a bad person, he's just too old and too removed from society to understand what's happening.

He and others might understand their lobbies better, this isn't the first "fascist" copyright statement around. Why do this guys have so much power to kill civil rights like privacy?

What I like best to see is how some lobbies make believe that open-source is for aiding terrorists and scientific investigation around the world including U.S. depends so much on it ;) but this has nothing to do with copyrights... well, until SCO came around :D


Bilu

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by bilu
He and others might understand their lobbies better, this isn't the first "fascist" copyright statement around. Why do this guys have so much power to kill civil rights like privacy?That's the downside of a representative government. The reality is quite different from the pure idea. In some ways, a capable, benevolent dictator is best because they have the security which allows them to do the right thing, regardless of the profit involved.

I'm not as cynical as that sounds.

[bilu]

I think that in a representative government you still need to respect the already implemented laws or at least the spirit of the Constituition. :confused: Well, I'm European and I've seen some abuses myself... :rolleyes:

Let's try to keep focus on this thread: digital copyright law enforcement. Before it gets political and therefore closed.

If they destroy your hardware how can they prove anything? It's like shooting and asking later? :rolleyes:

And if you go to court and say they have faked evidence, can they prove otherwise? :sly:


Bilu

[Doobie]

Hatch isn't a bad person, he's just too old and too removed from society to understand what's happening.

Hatch should have a good understanding because this isn't really about technology. Hatch should understand better than the general public that copyright laws exist for the public good, not to protect content creators' revenue streams (the latter is just a side-effect). Hatch should further understand that he's advocating vigilantism.

Hatch might not be a bad person but he has dangerously lost perspective. His *primary* role is to represent the people and protect freedom, not to represent Special Interests and protect statutory monopolies. He has no role in advocating vigilantism.

[bilu]

Hatch discussed in Kuro5hin:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/6/18/1892/20999

IMHO the US are trying to abolish encryption and privacy for users, being permited just for copyright owners and the government.

The Net is international so americans can just host private (not necessarily illegal) stuff somewhere else. But then according to their laws the users would be forbidden to access them.

I'm also curious about how much respect does the States have regarding software on foreign machines: imagine FBI destroying machines in Germany because an american user had put illegal stuff there...


Bilu

[FredThompson]

It seems to be what has become quite typical in America. If your product or business method doens't work or has stopped working, use a legal attack.

What really irritates me is every time this comes up the only topic of discussion is movies and music, as if other items aren't copyrighted.

In the U.S., copyright status is not just for those items which have been registered at the copyright office. It applies to anything that is created unless by the federal government or explicitly declared public domain.

Therefore, a business competitor could decide to "suspect" I have an improper copy of something they make. This could include a scan of an advertisement. Naturally, I want to know what my competitors advertise. So that competitor decides to hack into my computer and they "accidently" copy my confidential business information as part of their "discovery."

These attempts to allow trespass and destruction of private property without due process could very quickly destroy the entire country. Imagine what would happen if the same principle applied to physical items in stores...

"I suspect that food is mine so I'm going to break into the store and take it then I'm going to damage the store so it cannot continue to do business."

It would be the end of a society which has laws as a basis and turn into a theft-based society. Actually, a society can't be based on that so it would collapse.

Yup, the U.S. has tried to reach outside to apply its laws to other countries. Not as stupidly as that Belgian idea that they can apply their laws to anyone anywhere, though.

[bilu]

Originally posted by FredThompson
Not as stupidly as that Belgian idea that they can apply their laws to anyone anywhere, though.

Never heard of that one, can you post a link?

Bilu

[FredThompson]

I'll look. They're claiming jurisdiction over the entire world.

[Gaia]

Originally posted by FredThompson
I'll look. They're claiming jurisdiction over the entire world.

You're talking about Belgian war crime law. Nothing to do with copyright.

[bilu]

Aren't you talking about the Internation Criminal Court?

http://www.icc-cpi.int/index.php


Bilu


PS: This thread is becoming political and OT :o

[FredThompson]

Yeah, I just checked, it is only war crimes. Thought it was broader scope than that. Found some other things that mentioned the International Criminal Court. I seem to recall U.S. agents were involved in some of the piracy raids in the East in the past year, also. There was also talk about universal laws and what happens if you go for lowest common denominator of all world laws and just how restrictive that would be. Suppose, for example, the U.S. requires some kind of hardware-enforced copy restriction and the rest of the world has some kind of reciprocal agreement so they have to provide the same protection of US-source material. It's been a while since I looked into it but there's some kind of international copyright agreement and you have to abide by the rules of the other coutries.

[Lord of the Discs]

Well, I was surprised that the Senator needed a whole day to
remember that he also has a computer ...:rolleyes:

LotD

[\AX]

Imagine a highly stressed programmer (very common :-) that just happens to be a HUGE National Rifle Associate and is all about guns and puzzy. Ok now this programmer goes to work to find that his 9 months of work has be destroyed...and that nine months of work was to give his family a vacation and put his children in a good school...but all this in his life has been washed away now by hollywood.

what do you think that programmers reaction could possibly be???

remember it just takes 1 pebble to start a reoccuring ripple.

NOTE: i just posted this to show people that these type of "actions" like hollywood does go beyond the paperwork but into a VERY REAL and AGGRAVATED world that exist in the human psyche regardless of who has what power...all the power is wiped away by overriding human emotion.

"...the boy is a time bomb" - Rancid

edit again: something off topic...but can explain the wacked out congressmen and senators. You people of the USA do realise this right...let me form it in a question and answer.

Q. How long does it take a senator or congressman once elected in to serve as a congressman or senator to recieve his full pention and retirement fund for LIFE until he dies?? How long does he have to stay a congressman or senator in other words?

A. 1 day

[FredThompson]

Uh, not quite. $200K/year/life doesn't mean somebody instantly becomes a loonie tune. They're still subject to human laws and subject to living in a physical world.

The flip side of that pension issue is that without it, they're more likely to take graft. Given the wealth of most of those people, $200K doesn't do anything. It's just an attempted insurance from hitting rock bottom.

The danger is vigilantism which cannot be institutionalized in a modern society if that society is to survive. It may also have been a trial balloon sent aloft by somebody who can probably weather the storm.

[bilu]

A very nice article that may be related:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/6/17/183038/528


Bilu

[\AX]

"..$200K doesn't do anything.."

your richer than i am...i can tell. You didnt grow up in poverty.

if somebody kills you for your shoes...why wont they kill you if you ruin their life???

pension true...but 200k...who here makes 200k besides you?

[FredThompson]

Re-read, comprehend, and stay on topic. Don't troll. There's a lot in those ellipses, including the entire content of the post.

[bilu]

@\AX

"Given the wealth of most of those people, $200K doesn't do anything. It's just an attempted insurance from hitting rock bottom."

He was not referring to his own wealth. And people living in poverty can't afford writing in a forum because computers and dial-up calls are expensive in most countries.


Bilu

[\AX]

i understand NOW. I thought you were referring to something else...not a congressman/senator. I thought you were referring to the non fuzzy harsh reality of stress and a psychatic breakdown :-)

i dont troll...however based on the reply above im confused yet again.
Im not following this anymore...as words mean nothing unless they are put into action in this case.

in reality who here has honestly wrote to their congressmen/senators??? doubt even 1 person.

[midiguy]

Decided to edit my message out.