Licensing issues with Mpeg-4, Realvideo and Windows Media Video 9

[teko77]

Dear Sirs,



Do Real Video 9 or Windows Media Video 9 have similar use-fees as the MPEG-4 license, according to which a broadcaster should pay per user per year 0.25 $?

I am thinking about IP datacast, more precisely sending video via DVB-T to mobile terminals. In that sense, would one need to license also the MPEG-4 systems part, or would video and audio be enough in sending tv-content to mobile terminals?


Thank you for any info,



Teko77

[Sirber]

For wmv I tink it's 0.10$. I don't know about RV9.

[31 Flavas]

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know the only fees associated with streaming realmedia is the (per year) licensing cost of their streaming server.

And as long as you stream less than a total of 1mbit per second, as far as I know, your per year licensing cost is $0.

The GUI encoder is $200 or get the CLI for free from helix community.

[temporance]

Be very careful here not to be tied into a proprietary system by apparently lower costs. Companies like MS and Real have to get their cash from somewhere - and they have a monopoly over their proprietary standards. On the other hand, an open standard like MPEG-4 attracts a large number of competing vendors so the technology costs will only ever fall. And if you don't like the vendor you first choose, you can change later without needing to replace all your infrastructure.
would one need to license also the MPEG-4 systems part, or would video and audio be enough in sending tv-content to mobile terminals?You probably only need the audio and video parts but it really depends exactly how you plan to send the data over DVB-T.

[ooops!]

Where are you in the world and what's your uplink speed.

I only ask because you might be able to get quite good streaming results if you host the video files on your own (home) PC. So long as your uplink speed is good.

We've done a few 1 min encodes using Quicktime 6 with Mpeg4 video and AAC audio. They stream quite well as long as the file size is around 4,300KB / 4.2MB.

So far, we have found that Quicktime files stream a lot better than WMV9, WME9 and RM9 files.

I've been thinking of buying an old PC for home. Installing something like Apache (v1.3.27) file server software on it and filling the hard drive with a few 'test' encodes. The only problem is my home uplink speed is only 128K.

But I'm still going to have a go!

[temporance]

Hello ooops!

It seems like our friend is trying to set up a commerical service - s/he wants to "send video via DVB-T to mobile terminals". This means transmitting IP packets over digital terrestrial TV channels to vehicles on the move. I've heard of companies who are trying to deliver live TV to public transport (buses, trains, trams) using this method. DVB-T with it's OFDM technology works very well to receivers on the move (unlike the American standard ATSC).

Right now broadcasters are using MPEG-2 over DVB-T to send TV. The next step is MPEG-4 over IP over DVB-T. Good luck teko77!!!

[DAvenger]

Hey,

You can find a pretty nice comparison (at least for some codecs) athttp://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/create/licensing.aspx

Take care,
DAvenger

[trbarry]

I didn't think there was any per minute or per user fee for transmitting content pre-encoded in WM9, unlike MPEG-4. Can anyone confirm or correct that?

- Tom

[teko77]

Dear Sirs,


Thank you for all the info. This is just for a background-check in regard of the issue for myself in order to learn about the issues (so no broadcasting).

I am interested in how to avoid the licensing costs for MPEG-4 Systems part. How is this doable?

BTW, must the video format contain an option for multicasting (I read somewhere that Real Video would not support that - I think it was from the MPEG-4 white book)?

Anyone know where to get the licensing terms for Real video 9 and Windows Media Video 9?

Temporance, you're right, I am here making enquiries about the broadcasting of MPEG-4 data in the MPEG2 TS.

BTW, do you happen to know what one has to have on the cellular phone in order to separete the MPEG-4 content from MPEG-2 TS and decode the content? I mean, there will be a multitude of different models - apparently there is no standard thus far and if I am guessing that it would be impossible to use MHP on the phone in order for one to install e.g. different codecs there. Any viewpoints in regard of the issue?

Thank you any further info,



Teko77

[teko77]

Trbarry, have a look at the link DAvenger provided - looks like Windows Media would not have per use fees - but I really need to have a look at the licensing terms.



Teko77

[temporance]

teko77,

You should not need to use any of the MPEG-4 systems tools. RFC3016 from the IETF specifies a way to stream MPEG-4 over RTP.

You can, in principle, multicast any video format. There must be something really quirky about RV9 if it precludes multicast. I know for sure that MPEG-4/RTP can be multicast (or even broadcast on a network).

do you happen to know what one has to have on the cellular phone in order to separete the MPEG-4 content from MPEG-2 TS and decode the content?Well, you first need a DVB-T receiver (and I would have thought an OFDM demodulator would be way to power hungry for a mobile phone). Beyond that, just software to process the bitstream.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by temporance

You can, in principle, multicast any video format. There must be something really quirky about RV9 if it precludes multicast. Multicast as in send the same file to multiple people at the same time? Er.. uhm... Isn't that whole point of streaming media? Yes, RealVideo/RealAudio can do live/non-live streaming to multiple people at the same time.

Unless, I'm misunderstanding what is ment by multicast, I'd say that some increadibly thick fud in that mpeg white paper.

[teko77]

Ok, I might be getting this wrong, but do check out the table on page 23 in "MPEG-4 - The Media Standard" (from www.m4if.com) - it says in regard of Real "Scene must be unicast"?

Temporance, thanks for the tip! I checked the RFC and its awesome! Just the stuff I need. However, is RTP only applicable for MPEG-4? What protocol should be used e.g. for Microsoft Media 9 and Real Video 9 in order for one to multicast them via IP datacast? I read that RTSP is very popular and Real Video has contributed to it. I am just not sure what is the relationship with RTP and RTSP, although I saw some explanation at www.rtsp.org.

If there is a protocol for each format, it will all depend then on the licensing issues. If Microsoft/Real video do not take a fee per user of the decoder, it sounds like a winner to me - despite the fact that one would be tied to a single company. I mean, if it is just a matter of decoding the stuff via software on a mobile terminal, all one needs is to install a new codec, if one wants to change the video format (Or am I missing something here?)

Do you know what kind of plans are there in works in order in regard of common software for different mobile terminals to be able to install codecs and decode the content? (If MHP could not be adopted)

There isn't a lot of talk about Apple - is Apple/quicktime not a codec, but a container then?

Thank again guys for all the help,



Teko77

[avih]

teko77, eventhough the ppl here poined out some good points, i'd still take a lawyer to make sure i'm on the right side. i had a lawyer wife, and you won't believe how much EVERY word mean ;)

[teko77]

avih, don't be afraid on my count, I am a lawyer by profession - I just need to get down to the licensing terms (haven't done that yet, I just first want to get a general picture of the technology).


Teko

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by teko77
Ok, I might be getting this wrong, but do check out the table on page 23 in "MPEG-4 - The Media Standard" (from www.m4if.com) - it says in regard of Real "Scene must be unicast"? How did RealNetworks do live streaming of their Helix announcemnts then? More than one person at a time was able to stream the announcements live.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that multicasting?

[teko77]

31 Flavas, there could have been of course several unicast streams. The principle in multicasting is (what I have understood) that the streams are only sent once between two routers.



Teko77

[slavickas]

Originally posted by teko77
31 Flavas, there could have been of course several unicast streams. The principle in multicasting is (what I have understood) that the streams are only sent once between two routers.



Teko77

HelixServer supports multicasting, just basic edition license don't allow it and is capped to 1 mb/s

[teko77]

Please consider this question:

What protocol should be used for Microsoft Media 9, MPEG-4 and Real Video 9 in order for one to multicast them via IP datacast? I read that RTSP is very popular. But would it work ok for each of them? Or are there proprietary protocols among the 3, which would tie the protocol to the videoformat?

Thank you again for any info,




Teko77

[bofw3]

Originally posted by teko77
Please consider this question:
What protocol should be used for Microsoft Media 9, MPEG-4 and Real Video 9 in order for one to multicast them via IP datacast? I read that RTSP is very popular. But would it work ok for each of them? Or are there proprietary protocols among the 3, which would tie the protocol to the videoformat?


Ok, let's try to clear things out.
First thing:
RTSP is a control protocol for initiating and directing delivery of streaming multimedia from media servers, the "Internet VCR remote control protocol". RTSP does not deliver data, though the RTSP connection may be used to tunnel RTP traffic for ease of use with firewalls and other network devices. RTSP Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.rtsp.org/2001/faq.html#rtp_rtcp_rtsp)
RTSP serves only to send commands like PLAY and PAUSE to the server, and has little use for multicast scenarios because most of this scenarios are one-way (to get the idea, you can't tell on your normal TV broadcast to PAUSE or to PLAY).

The actual video and audio data is delivered by RTP, Real Video uses that if I'm not mistaken, sorry but I'm not a RV guru.

There is a draft RFC to deliver MPEG4 over RTP over IP. MPEG4 standard also defines a complete system for the delivery of content a bit like MPEG2 Transport Streams.

Until now, Windows Media could only be delivered by MMS. MMS or 'Microsoft Media Server' protocol is Microsoft's proprietary network streaming protocol. But now Microsoft changed the license to allow Windows Media encoded content to be delivered over other formats and protocols, so RTP is also an option, but there is no product that I know that uses it this way.

Multicast is a special form of broadcast. In multicast there is only a stream get out of the server, and all clients listen to the same stream. Also there is normally no way for a client to start or stop a multicast, it's just like broadcast and works the same way as TV or Radio.
The difference between broadcast and multicast is just at the router level.

Now for your initial problem, deliver non MPEG2 video over DVB-T, there is some solutions, the first one is using RTP/MMS/whatever over IP over MPE over MPEG2-TS, it's a lot of packaging but it works and can be done now, using standard tools and hardware.
The second way is to send the video data in a normal MPEG2 packet, just instead of putting MPEG2 inside the packet put anything you want. This is very non standard, and the video encoding must cope with the TS spec. There is other ways, like using MPEG2 private sections also, but again no standard, so no tools.

Finally, and that is a question of mine, what mobile terminals are you talking about? I don't think you're talking about mobile phones, because I don't have any idea of seeing anyone having a DVB-T tunner or beeing capable of having one, and as someone else told you a DVB-T tunner and decoder will eat a lot of battery.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes teko77, good luck with your venture.

Although ooops was a bit off post, it was interesting reading all the same.

I don't know much about licencing. As I guess the fees would be quite different depending on the country you are in (streaming in).

But, I would be interested to learn a bit more about the pixel frame size and how may frames per second you were thinking of broadcasting at. Together with the available bandwidth?

And yes, unfortunately, QuickTime .mp4 files do seem to stream better than most other files at the same file size (over the internet)!

And I think there's even a company in Israel that's experimenting with streaming low bit Mpeg2. God knows why!

[teko77]

SeeMoreDigital,
There have been some experiments in Finland already.
Check out www.rtt.tv and the IP Datacasting Content Services White Paper (http://www.medialab.sonera.fi/2003/05/13)
I don't have a project in the works though - this is just to familiarize with the subject matter.

Bofw3,
Thank you for the description on RTSP. To your question: There have been experiments with tablet-type of receivers here in Finland. But I wouldn't be surprised if Nokia would bring out a new model with an OFDM demodulator sometime soon (??) I would be interested in hearing solutions to that effect myself - regular mobile phone would be the desired receiver for sure.



Teko77