Gordian Knot GL beta3 - International - OGM and MKV support !

[tHe gLouCh]

Here is the first beta of a MULTILINGUAL build of GK !

http://members.fortunecity.fr/bdreve/GKGL010Beta.zip
[Edit] Beta2
http://members.fortunecity.fr/bdreve/GKGL010Beta2.zip
http://members.fortunecity.fr/bdreve/GKGL010Beta2S.zip
[Edit] Beta3
http://members.fortunecity.fr/bdreve/GordianKnot.ExeOnly.0.1.0beta3.Setup.exe


Language in this version : English, French.

Readme.txt

*** tHe gLouCh's Gordian Knot GL 0.1.0 beta 3 - Base: GK 0.28.2 beta 3 ***

WARNING !!
This beta version is for test purpose only !! Modify the ini files if you want but
don't do it for ALL the strings (.ini structure may change until the first release) EVEN if with a good diff-tool you can
later modify manually YOUR ini structure to MY ini structure)
WARNING !!

- install "standard" version of GK. (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gordianknot/)

- First of all : !!! SAVE YOUR gordianknot.exe file in another folder !!!

- From my set, Copy gordian.exe file and all .ini files to your GK folder.

- if you want to translate to another language, copy english.ini to "yourlanguage".ini in the same folder.
- to enable another language go to 'Options' tab and choose another one in the Language Listbox.

[cyberyeye]

Very good works and fast dev !!!

We are lucky in this days :-)

Of course this is a beta, but that's a very good news for all people who wants to translate Gordianknot in another language.

I'll see the french.ini for helping you to translate it, better and better :P

:sly:

[len0x]

looks nice, but i haven't tried it yet...
I'm thinking this effort should not be wasted, so we have to merge this stuff to the cvs at some point. I suggest after i release 0.28.3 beta soon I'll wait for you to produce international version of it. And then we'll put it into cvs. How does this sound ?

p.s. this version has to have some serious testing in the meantime...

[tHe gLouCh]

It's sound very GOOD to me !!

Here is a new version with sources (see links on the top of the page). You NEED rxLib 275 for using the sources.

New in beta 2:
- Automatic Ripping (for test only !)

[tHe gLouCh]

Beta3 05/29/2003 (see link on top)

New:
- OGM & MKV support !
- update ini files with on click (no translation)

[len0x]

I just wonder - are you gonna be merging this stuff afterwards again?
Coz I surely won't...

As I said only when I release 0.28.3 beta you'll have oportunity to work on the version without me modifying something at the same time...

Right now what you're doing is making gap large and large betwen your version and CVS version...

[tHe gLouCh]

??

Well, lenox, I think there was a little misunderstanding from me. Maybe I am really bad at reading english.
I am really new at CVS and all that stuff (it takes me 1 day to fully understang how to get the source and update them).

If you want to merge the source don't worry. ALL the CVS code is in my code (all additionals parts from me are commented "// glouch"). I update from CVS source every day. if you want to start working on merge sources just download the latest beta3 and go (CVS source from this night with mpeg2dec3 addition- it doesn't work by the way).

http://members.fortunecity.fr/bdreve/GKGL010Beta3S.zip

So, I am NOT making large gap between the 2 versions. It takes me VERY long time to compare the CVS source with mine to keep the differences low.

Ok, so after that, what do I do with my future additions ? May I update the CVS and how ? (as I say I am new to CVS)

[Kurtnoise]

That's really a good job The Glouch.....:)

Thanks for all

[DaveEL]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
??
Ok, so after that, what do I do with my future additions ? May I update the CVS and how ? (as I say I am new to CVS)

Signup for sourceforge and send me your sourceforge login and ill add you as a developer on the project so you can check stuff in. Also check out the post "sourceforge development for gordianknot" at the top of this forum for instructions on using cvs.

DaveEL

[ChristianHJW]

For fast and reliable CVS operations from win32, we found nothing compares to TortoiseCVS (http://www.tortoisecvs.org). Its very easy to use also, even i know how to use it to update our specs pages ( we keep them in CVS ) ;) ....

Thanks about the alpha MKV support, we really appreciate this a lot. If you need any advice about how to make a 'over-the-tumb' overhead caluculation, pls. join us in the European evening times on irc.corecodec.com , #matroska , we can point you to some links and explain some basics, its not as hard as it may seem to be out first ...

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

(CVS source from this night with mpeg2dec3 addition- it doesn't work by the way).


First, it does if you reanme new mpeg2dec3.dll to mpeg2dec.dll :)Second, I make no effort to produce working version every day - I just commit what I've done (it compiles of course). And hence you will always have problems working with daily builds. That's why we have release milestones (well at least I do)...

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

So, I am NOT making large gap between the 2 versions. It takes me VERY long time to compare the CVS source with mine to keep the differences low.


wow :) I was trying to save your time by saying that you will have a chance to do all the stuff you want without me being commited new stuff everyday (and hence do all modifications at one go) But you chose hard way...

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

Ok, so after that, what do I do with my future additions ? May I update the CVS and how ? (as I say I am new to CVS)

OK, you will have CVS developer access, but let's agree on this:
1) Do not commit anything before I release 0.28.3 beta (around weekend)
2) You can commit only international changes first. (i.e. test features + OGM + MKV should not go there just yet, coz then we'll go back to alpha stage and we can't really release them without proper bitrate calculator)

About your version in general - it has some bugs (for instance open d2v button always stays in french, "button1" shown on dvd2avi panel etc...).

My suggestion is: I release 0.28.3, then we merge international version, test it and release as 0.28.4. After that we can go and do support for other formats. Agreed ?

[Sigmatador]

Good job glouch ^^

[bond]

Originally posted by len0x
test features + OGM + MKV should not go there just yet, coz then we'll go back to alpha stage and we can't really release them without proper bitrate calculator)wise words!

My suggestion is: I release 0.28.3, then we merge international version, test it and release as 0.28.4. After that we can go and do support for other formats. Agreed ?would be great because i think that it is very important that gknot fullfills its reputation as high quality, hard tested and reliable application

and i also think that it would be very bad to split the development into two projects...

so join forces and together make an even better app than the two sperated ones :)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by len0x 2) You can commit only international changes first. (i.e. test features + OGM + MKV should not go there just yet, coz then we'll go back to alpha stage and we can't really release them without proper bitrate calculator). My suggestion is: I release 0.28.3, then we merge international version, test it and release as 0.28.4. After that we can go and do support for other formats. Agreed ?

If we can help anyhow, give us a shout or join us ( see signature )

EDIT : BTW, as MKV is in most cases ( 95% ) turning out a little bit smaller than the OGM, at least for a usual number of audio tracks ( 1 - 2 ), you might want to use the same overhead calculation for both to start with. I dont think the users will kill you if the file size is not met within +/- 200 KB ;) ...

[tHe gLouCh]

Originally posted by len0x
OK, you will have CVS developer access, but let's agree on this:
1) Do not commit anything before I release 0.28.3 beta (around weekend)
2) You can commit only international changes first. (i.e. test features + OGM + MKV should not go there just yet, coz then we'll go back to alpha stage and we can't really release them without proper bitrate calculator)
1- OK (anyway I must learn more about cvs)
2- I understand.
But I must modify the source to have 2 versions !! One with INT the other with INT+OGM :( !!!
One precision : my sources must be based on 0.28.3 beta ?
Originally posted by len0x
About your version in general - it has some bugs (for instance open d2v button always stays in french, "button1" shown on dvd2avi panel etc...).
1- Well, i=I call it a beta but it is more an alpha.
Originally posted by len0x
My suggestion is: I release 0.28.3, then we merge international version, test it and release as 0.28.4. After that we can go and do support for other formats. Agreed ?
OK! But I will continue on my own to add some features (I'm on Chapters now) without posting it anywhere ?

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
But I must modify the source to have 2 versions !! One with INT the other with INT+OGM :( !!!
One precision : my sources must be based on 0.28.3 beta ?


Yep, that'll be a must, otherwise we'll end up with downgrade version rather than upgrade... And yes if you want to keep doing things like OGM, Chapter support etc you have to do it seperately from INT support. We always have long and short term development and we have to seperate that and make sure evry single version we release to the public is stable (time when I was doing alphas everyday has gone :) )

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

1- Well, i=I call it a beta but it is more an alpha.


I'd rather you do more testing of your INT changes, than playing with OGM. It'll be more helpfull... But it's up to you. I just want to organize the process in a more efficient way...

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

OK! But I will continue on my own to add some features (I'm on Chapters now) without posting it anywhere ?

You know what I think about it already. But as soon as I reach the point of 0.28.3 I'll merge evrything on HEAD branch where you can work more or less safely on some unstable features... I just wanted to complete some stage before getting in alpha development of new features like OGM,MKV...

[len0x]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
If we can help anyhow, give us a shout or join us ( see signature )


absolutely! :)
I'm just too busy with small but overwhelming feature implementations, but as soon as I'm done with them - I'll start doing MKV and OGM support.

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

EDIT : BTW, as MKV is in most cases ( 95% ) turning out a little bit smaller than the OGM, at least for a usual number of audio tracks ( 1 - 2 ), you might want to use the same overhead calculation for both to start with. I dont think the users will kill you if the file size is not met within +/- 200 KB ;) ...

good to know.

[CaptainCarrot]

BTW, as MKV is in most cases ( 95% ) turning out a little bit smaller than the OGM, at least for a usual number of audio tracks ( 1 - 2 ), you might want to use the same overhead calculation for both to start with. I dont think the users will kill you if the file size is not met within +/- 200 KB ...
I've already converted a couple of XCD-ogms (~795MB) to mkv, and they were ~4-5MB smaller in mkv. Video was DivX or XviD, Audio was 1 or 2 ogg-vorbis-tracks.
EDIT: A 1.4GB-ogm file with 1 ac3 and 1 mp3-track decreased by 9 MB as well when transmuxed to mkv.

[bond]

Originally posted by CaptainCarrot
I've already converted a couple of XCD-ogms (~795MB) to mkv, and they were ~4-5MB smaller in mkv. Video was DivX or XviD, Audio was 1 or 2 ogg-vorbis-tracks.
so i really think that reasonable tests, on how much overhead mkvs or ogms need, should be done before releasing a mkv/ogm enabled version!!!

[ChristianHJW]

small announcement :

spyder was now 'officially' appointed a project manager for a MKV overhead calculation tool :) !

@len0x : what you guys prefer ? Some Delphi code, a DLL with a form of basic API to pass all the data to it and return the size in bytes, or a java applet :) ?

[len0x]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

@len0x : what you guys prefer ? Some Delphi code, a DLL with a form of basic API to pass all the data to it and return the size in bytes, or a java applet :) ?

Delphi code would be ideal, but C/C++ will do as well as I can port it myself :)

[tHe gLouCh]

Well, Delphi code.. BUT a Dll is an easier way to maintain GK source code UNTIL the calculator works good.

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
Well, Delphi code.. BUT a Dll is an easier way to maintain GK source code UNTIL the calculator works good.

it's overkill to have a dll for ten lines of code...
and I always like to have full control of the source code myself...

[tHe gLouCh]

Of course, i was just arguying.

By the way lenox, since I am on OGM & MKV support myself, what is the most important things to do in GK to preserve its well deserved quality (overhead calculation of course, but what else ?) ?

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
By the way lenox, since I am on OGM & MKV support myself, what is the most important things to do in GK to preserve its well deserved quality (overhead calculation of course, but what else ?) ?

Well, other format support consist of:
1) selection of the format on the bitrate tab.
2) Proper bitrate calculator
3) OGG support (muxing and transcoding)
4) Muxing into container
5) most important one: make sure old code works :)

@All
There one thing which I just though of: do we have to save the video in the container already, or save it to avi and save to the container only at muxing stage. (Coz I remember some codec features required container at first place. i.e. b-frames in OGM). This also affects whether divx 3.11 will be supported by new contaners or not...

[tHe gLouCh]

Originally posted by len0x
Well, other format support consist of:
1) selection of the format on the bitrate tab.
2) Proper bitrate calculator
3) OGG support (muxing and transcoding)
4) Muxing into container
5) most important one: make sure old code works :)
1 - Already done (but in the rip tab: "Project name" with extension).
2 - ?? be more precise ! My version is well working, but i didn't touch anything on bitrate calculator.
3 - Done (mux & transcode)
4 - Done (OGM & MKV)
5 - Done (i hope)

Originally posted by len0x
@All
There one thing which I just though of: do we have to save the video in the container already, or save it to avi and save to the container only at muxing stage. (Coz I remember some codec features required container at first place. i.e. b-frames in OGM). This also affects whether divx 3.11 will be supported by new contaners or not...

When I use OGM i save the video in AVI format then mux in OGM, with MKV directly in MKV for all passes.

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
1 - Already done (but in the rip tab: "Project name" with extension).


I was wondering what was that ? :)
that won't work...
We need radio group or combo box with all the contaners supported, based on this there will be codecs enabled or disabled...
(also overhead should be automatically recalculated when you select new contanier)

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

2 - ?? be more precise ! My version is well working, but i didn't touch anything on bitrate calculator.


If I knew how we gonna calculate bitrate precisely that'd be already implemented :)

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

3 - Done (mux & transcode)


I don's see any option on the audio tab saying OGG...

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

When I use OGM i save the video in AVI format then mux in OGM, with MKV directly in MKV for all passes.

That means that you don't support divx 3.11, right?
(which is not right thing to do...)

*EDIT*
P.S. also messages in the log window & file should reflect which container is used...

[tHe gLouCh]

1 - well it's working ! You must select in "project name" a directory to save the final movie, choose the extension(avi, ogm, mkv), type its name and then some options appear (eg ogg when you select OGM or MKV). But verify in the encode window that the Output File has the same extension ( I know it's a bug!)
3 - see 1 (ogg appears only if you choose ogm or mkv with NO xvid 3.11)
4 - No, that is a question I wanted to ask because GK use nandub with 3.11 and I do not know how to add sound and others streams with it. When the extension is .ogm or .mkv divx3 is normally disabled in the bitrate tab.

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
1 - well it's working !


I meant it's not working for GK :)
Do I have to guess which extension each container has ?

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh

4 - No, that is a question I wanted to ask because GK use nandub with 3.11 and I do not know how to add sound and others streams with it. When the extension is .ogm or .mkv divx3 is normally disabled in the bitrate tab.

As I understand you can do video avi via nandub as usual, but then open it in vdubmod and save with audio into another container...

*EDIT*
About OGG - it should always be on audio tab, coz there is an option "Add audio job only" which should allow me manually transcode ac3->ogg.

[tHe gLouCh]

Originally posted by len0x
I meant it's not working for GK :)
Do I have to guess which extension each container has ?
What do you mean ? When I rip, I choose a format (AVI, OGM or MKV) and then the program allows you to use THIS codec, THIS audio format, etc... NO ?
As I understand you can do video avi via nandub as usual, but then open it in vdubmod and save with audio into another container...
Yes, it will be easier to use VDM for ALL the codecs, but actually I do not know how to do that and if it is possible.
About OGG - it should always be on audio tab, coz there is an option "Add audio job only" which should allow me manually transcode ac3->ogg.
Very easy to do ! But then you must disable muxing when container is AVI

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
What do you mean ? When I rip, I choose a format (AVI, OGM or MKV) and then the program allows you to use THIS codec, THIS audio format, etc... NO ?


Say, I'm very dumb user - how do I choose the format if I even don't have a list of all available formats!

[tHe gLouCh]

Well, you have it in the OpenDialog window, BUT I will ad the containers in a ComboBox and like that "tout le monde sera content" !!;)

[len0x]

Originally posted by tHe gLouCh
Well, you have it in the OpenDialog window, BUT I will ad the containers in a ComboBox and like that "tout le monde sera content" !!;)

there is no need to specify name of the project at all...
just combo-box(although I like radio boxes better) on the bitrate tab will do. Anyway I'll be looking at the GUI stuff soon anyway...
(and you have more important things to do so far :) )

P.S. We don't have to be DVX-alike :)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by len0x
Delphi code would be ideal, but C/C++ will do as well as I can port it myself :)

@ len0x :

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55711

There is progress on the overhead calc code ....

[len0x]

10x for pointing that out.
It looks like we finally gonna move GK into MKV area :)

(I actually think that every single tool/format GK uses - gets really big promotion among users, almost like an ad :) )

[Brother John]

It's really good news to read about support for Ogm and Matroska in GKnot. Lately I haven't used GKnot much because I like Ogm, but I'd love to stop doing the encoding manually in VDubMod.

I don't know, how far development in this direction has gone. I just found this thread today and my brain started thinking by itself :) about the possibilities of integrating the choice of containers into GKnot's GUI.

So I played around a little and came up with this:
http://people.freenet.de/brotherjohn_zeug/gknot_container.gif
That's the section now called "Interleaving & AVI Overhead".
The combobox for choosing the audio formats could look like this:
http://people.freenet.de/brotherjohn_zeug/gknot_audio.gif

There's no working code behind it. I was just playing with the layout.

What do you think? len0x?
I don't know if it's of any use for you, I just felt like posting my ideas in case there's something worth thinking about.

[tHe gLouCh]

If you want to test an "unofficial" release of GK with OGM& MKV support just download (executable only)

GK GL Version beta 5 build14
http://members.fortunecity.com/bdreve/GKnotGLb5b14.Setup.zip

Installation is in french(just click, click click...:)), but you can choose english language when running the program.
Even if this version is working correctly, *** it's for test only ***.