Subtitles in Matroska (merged)

[helten]

Hi there!!

I've just started using Matroska and I have some questions:

1: It seems characters like æ, ø and å (danish characters) isn't supported in subtitles when I create a .mkv with Vdubmod 1.5.1.1.a. The subtitles works fine with .avi files. Instead of æ, ø or å I just get some spam...
Is this a Matroska or Vdubmod issue???

2: Is it possible to tag the subtitles so I can see the language in vobsub instead of just "003" or "004" ? I've tried setting the language tag in vdubmod for each subtitle stream, but I see no difference... It worked for me in .ogm files.

3: Will the .mkv files I create now with the current build of vdubmod be 100% compatible with future releases of matroska??

Software versions:
Matroska filter: 0.4.0
VobSub: 2.23
Vdubmod: 1.5.1.1.a

I guess that's it. Thanks for any replies :)

Edited: Spelling errors :)

[Suiryc]

1. VirtualDubMod write subtitles in UTF-8 format for Matroska files. This ensure that the subs will appear the same on your computer and on computers in other countries (which uses other character sets). But for the moment the DShow filters won't show you the correct Unicode subs, but will show you UTF-8 as ASCII subs (hence the strange things you see).
BTW subtitles aren't really officialy supported in the current DSF ;)

2. IIRC I set the Language value of each track, so this is maybe that the DShow filter doesn't handle it :confused:.

3. Yes it should remain compatible.

[helten]

Many thanks for your answers :)

Does anyone knows when subtitle support will be properly supported by the matroska DSF?

[filewalker]

I muxed(with VDMod 1.5.1.1a) 2 .SRT subtitels which were created by Subrip in the MKV Container.But before muxing I opended the .srt in the editor and saved them as UTF-8 (instead of ANSI)

But despite this procedure ä,ö,ü,Ä,Ö,Ü aren't displayed correctly...some strange characters appeared instead.

Is it normal...or is it a VDMod-bug or a DSF-bug.


...altough subs aren't now supported officially, cycling through the subs in the player works better than in OGM.:)

Cu filewalker

[[Toff]]

Originally posted by filewalker
I muxed(with VDMod 1.5.1.1a) 2 .SRT subtitels which were created by Subrip in the MKV Container.But before muxing I opended the .srt in the editor and saved them as UTF-8 (instead of ANSI)

VirtualDubMode always convert subtitles in UTF-8 before putting them in matroska so the additionnal step is not required in fact.


But despite this procedure ä,ö,ü,Ä,Ö,Ü aren't displayed correctly...some strange characters appeared instead.
Is it normal...or is it a VDMod-bug or a DSF-bug.

It's neither a VirtualDubMod-bug nor a DSF-bug.
At the moment the DSF output the subtitles text as is (UTF-8 if you use VirtualDubMod, ASCII is also available if you use mkvmerge).
But there is not DS subtitle filter that support UTF8 it's why you see strange characters, UTF8 is displayed as ASCII.
It's not a bug, the subtitle support is just not finished.
The current available subtitle filters need to be modified to handle the different types of subtitles available. For that we need to introduce a new Media Type with some precise format, this way the subtitle filter will be able to identify the format of the subtitle and will display them correctly.

Regards Toff

[filewalker]

Hi [Toff],thanks for the explanation.:)
The current available subtitle filters need to be modified to handle the different types of subtitles available.
Do you mean that DVobSub can't handle .SRT in UTF-8 correctly?
So the solution for correct .SRT display depends on gabest adaption for UTF-8 support in his filter instead for ASCII, or ?:rolleyes:
For that we need to introduce a new Media Type with some precise format
If I understand you correctly you mean USF, or?
I hope it'll come soon:)...I tested the "Realtime USF Example Project" with the "Ccsubtester" programm (corecodec forum (http://www.corecoded.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8)/3.link)and I'm really happy about the nice features:eek:...really promising! :)

But for now or closer future, will gabest support UTF-8(.SRT) in his DVobSub or do we have to wait till USF is ready?
edit:
BTW, just curious... what's going on with the developement of USF?... and tools for creating/muxing USF-(XML,or)subtitels?

Cu filewalker :)

[duartix]

Part of this question is a bit out of the scope of this forum but the other part isn't so please bear with me:

Is there any Bitmap based compressed subtitle format soon to be supported within matroska?

I'm a bit tired of Subrip and it's below optimal results in OCR. You spend a lot of time OCRing and when you check the movie there are some 2 or 3 errors along an entire file. This is good because that's a very low error rate, but is still very annoying because the errors are there and there is no way to catch them quickly. So I'm thinking that 2 or 3 MB for a subtitle file are worth the extra bitrate if they spear me the time and errors to OCRing.

[bill_baroud]

extracted from matroska codecs specs page (http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/matroska/doc/website/specs/codex.html?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/html) :rolleyes: :

S_IMAGE/PNG
Like above, but images are being compressed with PNG




when ? that's a good question :D

[Atamido]

Storing them shouldn't be an issue. I'm sure Mosu could whip together to code in mkvmerge to put PNG's in blocks with timecodes and durations. The problem is how to display them. I don't think that mplayer has the design, and I have never heard of a DirectShow filter that could. So they would have to write one, and that is a whole different ball of wax.

[Animaniac]

I'm rooting for SSA/ASS subs being the anime freak I am.

[Milkman Dan]

Originally posted by Animaniac
I'm rooting for SSA/ASS subs being the anime freak I am.

I'm rooting for image subs, being the anime fan that I am.

[Atamido]

Technicaly the "subs" track is an Overlay track, which means you should be able to overlay anything over it. That includes 3D, menu's, flash, or video.

You could render some fancy stuff to video and overlay that for subtitles. Of course, rendering 2 video streams at the same time and overlaying one on top of the other might be a little difficult for most PC's to handle right now.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Milkman Dan I'm rooting for image subs, being the anime fan that I am.

Originally posted by Animaniac I'm rooting for SSA/ASS subs being the anime freak I am.

Both will be supported, no doubt. We are trying to get a round table organized together with Gabest, so we can decide together how to handle different subtitle streams from matroska and DVobSub ...

[Kyo]

Or tools for muxing SSA/ASS into matroska containers?

This could be done or the USF format will cope with the fansub standars and replace all the SSA format?

[Mosu]

Originally posted by bill_baroud
extracted from matroska codecs specs page (http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/matroska/doc/website/specs/codex.html?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/html)

S_IMAGE/PNG
Like above, but images are being compressed with PNG

:rolleyes: :

when ? that's a good question :D

The problem with compressed image formats for subtitles is that decompressing takes time. In the case of PNG I strongly doubt if the subs could be decompressed without interrupting playback (you know - even slight interruptions are visible).

Yes, I could probably include PNG subtitle support into mkvmerge pretty quickly, but making mplayer display them would require a lot more effort than I'm willing to spend on this subject at the moment.

Maybe using the vobsub stuff, compressing it with something that's FAST (unlike PNG, maybe gzip, don't know) would yield some usable results. But as I said I don't have the time to experiment with such stuff at the moment. Sorry.

[BlackSun]

I merged both Matroska subtitle threads. Duartix, pay attention to other topics when posting. thx

[duartix]

@BlackSun:Duartix, pay attention to other topics when posting. thx I'm sorry, I had seen that post but since it was adressing UTF and I was asking about compressed images, I though I would be to much OT posting there.
This rises another issue:
We are (hopefully) going to need a Matroska forum!:) :) :)

[Sigmatador]

We are (hopefully) going to need a Matroska forum!:) :) :)

right ^^


--> http://www.corecodec.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=index :D


(unfortunately, i don't think doom9 is going to create a matroska forum soon ... :( )

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by Sigmatador
right ^^


--> http://www.corecodec.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=index :D


(unfortunately, i don't think doom9 is going to create a matroska forum soon ... :( )

well, just keep in mind that the forum on CoreCodec is mostly oriented on the development side, while there it is for general usage.

[unmei]

Or tools for muxing SSA/ASS into matroska containers?

This could be done or the USF format will cope with the fansub standars and replace all the SSA format?


Here's another anime and SSA fan,
writing a editor for USF (called U96) which will import your existing SSA files to USF :P

Afaik there are features in SSA not yet 1:1 translatable to USF by now, but this will sure be solved or we find a workaround for it

for example one could easily include "videos" in usf just by chaining image-subtitles . i have no idea if a real-time parser could keep up with it, but for this you better ask gabest, theoretically its no problem and it will be implemented in one of the next builds of U96 , guess end of this week (sorry exam in between, probably not sooner)

Note many functions in U96 are not yet implemented and currently you can only open USF itself and SRT, no SSA (it's a bit more complex and will take its time ;)

Also i would highly appreciate it if someone could send me some examples of AAS files that show the differences/extenstions towards SSA (i only use SSA and have no idea how AAS looks but would like to support it too)

I would appreciate it if you guys could test the unfinished crap it is at the moment and report bugs to me (PM, #usf@corecodec.com or mail to seilf@hta-bi.bfh.ch)

*as of now, build 178 is latest, newest additions styles and in-text style (b,u,i,font tags)
*don't use the style->plain/2default functions and don't click "alpha" or "colorkey", these will hang or crash the app (fixed in next build i hope)

for the curious, preview builds are located here :
http://www.hta-bi.bfh.ch/~seilf/U96/

(@moderator move this if you think it belongs to subtitles or development section, i just tho it fits here :)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by unmei Here's another anime and SSA fan, writing a editor for USF (called U96) which will import your existing SSA files to USF :P

Gimme Gimme :D !!

But please note that Gabest is making his way through matroska file structure right now ;) .... so hurry up, U96 will miss the war :D ... LOL !

[unmei]

yeah i know i would miss a war against gabest , no doubt...
but i always counted on gabest imcluding USF in the DS filter to actually view the subs in files and i feel no special desire to program a DS filter (would be way beyond my skills anyway). i'm not informed what exactly gabest plans to do, but if he doesn't make a editor for the text form there is certainly a need to have one... and if he does program such a editor, well maybe there are people who would want a choice or gabest's one doesnt work for them {no offense gabest, my theory is that happens with every program}...i think having more than one program for the same purpose wouldn't be that bad after all.
Again i would like to point out that U96 is merely a specialized XML editor, not a video player .I would be lucky if using it in combination with textsub would turn out as handy as i felt the combination SSA / textsub is :) - then i could forget about the whole video thing...

...going to fix the bugs now or disable those functions causing it, sorta feel bad i upped a build with that severe flaws yesterday, but i found them only after i uploaded it...

about "gimme" - all i can give ATM is in the directoy linked in my sig

[gabest]

Well, dvobsub already supports usf in vsfilter.dll (http://gabest.org/vsfilter.rar), but I don't know about any ssa/ass to usf converter. But MPC can do opposite :)