WMV9 vs RM9

[The Producer]

I have created a 3D animation in DVD format which has 5.1 sound.
I want to scale it down so that it can be streamed or downloaded over the internet, and the two formats that I have interest in is WM9 and RM9.

RM9 has surround sound support, but from what i've read, it's more like Dolby Surround, and isn't discrete 5.1 audio channels.

WM9 has support for up to 7.1 audio channels, but I fear what my 5.1 soundtrack would sound like on computers with only 2 speakers.
Does WM Player 9 downmix the 5.1 audio, and would the downmix sound better with the SRS WOW and Tru Bass optimizations activated in WMP9?

Thanks!

[temporance]

Use DivX or xvid, then you can keep your original 5.1 in AC3 form.

[bufferzone]

i think the question you have to answer is who is your audience? you may be able to keep the original 5.1 sound in WM9 or RV9, but if you audience doesn't have the hardware to play it then its really a moot point. i suspect the file, whether streamed or downloaded, will be play on a computer with a 2-speaker or 2-speaker/1 woofer setup. probably not the answer you were looking for, but that's generally how a think when i try to create a audio or video file for my website.

the bufferzone (http://users2.ev1.net/~warlord/bufferzone)

[ooops!]

Bufferzone's resonse is most true!

But if you do want to proceed, creating a 6Ch WMA audio file from an AC3 file (presuming your source is an .ac3 file) can be a bit of pain.

BeSweet's encoder is supposed to be able to separate a 6Ch AC3 file to 6 separate mono WAV’s, but all I've managed to get is a garbled mess!

I use HeadAC3he and encode each channel separately, to obtain my mono WAV's.

Even at the lowest setting of - 128kbps VBR, 44.1kHz, 16Bit, the WM9 encoder achives good results. And the file size savings are well worth the effort.

I re-encoded the audio for Star Wars 2. The original 6Ch AC3 file was 448,384KB (437MB). The 6Ch WMA file finished at 130.457KB (127MB).

Not tried RA9 yet!

[trbarry]

There is also a hybrid possibility. Many PC users that can play 5.1 sound do it by connecting SPDIF out to an a/v receiver.

But I don't think WMA can play 5.1 audio that way. However it is now possible using the M$ VCM codec to create WMV9 video muxed into AVI's with ac3 audio. So that's another solution you might explore.

- Tom

[ChristianHJW]

1. If you really want to stream it in real time you are forced to look either at

- Realmedia ( Helix ) and its streaming server

or

- Ogg Theora ( Ogg Vorbis for audio, Theora for video ) - not yet available, but hopefully during the 2nd half of this year. http://www.xiph.org

M$ WMV9 is no option than, because you cant get your hands on a real WMV real time streaming server easily AFAIK.

2. If you only want it to download and play ( thats NOT streaming ) you have a couple of options :

DivX + AC3 in AVI : people need DivX installed and a valid AC3 filter

WMV9 + WMA9 in WMV ( ASF ) : should work fine on every Windows PC

RV9 + RA9 in RM : Requires Realplayer ( or Media Player Classic from Gabest, but Realplayer must be installed )

DivX + AAC in MP4 ( no 5.1 support yet, but this should be in the works already ) : Requires a valid MP4 parser ( 3ivx, mpegable, etc. ), the DivX codec and an AAC Dshow filter that is 5.1 capable ( not available yet AFAIK )

DivX + Vorbis 5.1 in OGM : requires DivX codec and Tobias' OggDS filters

DivX + Vorbis 5.1 in matroska : sames as above, plus matroska parser

in future :

DivX + AAC in matroska : DivX codec, matroska parser and AAC DShow filter

WMV9 + AAC in matroska : WMV9 plays fine on every Windows PC with the WMV DMO filter, you need matroska parser and a future AAC DShow filter for that

Make your choice :) !

[The Producer]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Bufferzone is right, most of the audience I know will watching it through either a 2.0 or 2.1 setup.
But if I just encode the L&R channels in the the WM9, some parts of the soundtrack that appear on the SL & SR channels are missing. What I want to know does WMP 9 downmix it's 5.1 WM9 files when played back on 2.0/.1 systems?

Encoding the 5.1 WM file won't be hard, I still have the mono wav files I used to create the DVD version!

ChristianHJW, I didn't know that it was hard to get a WM streaming server, so I might go with RM9 for people who have a fast enough connection to stream.
But for download and play (an option for people who can't stream)
the DivX+MP4 combination sounds promising.
I believe in the specs for MP4, it can support up to 48 channels, but I guess there isn't an encoder that can encode more than 2 channels yet, if you know of any I would be very interested in trying it.

[Sirber]

I read somewhere that Ogg Vorbis supports 256 channels... :D

[ooops!]

If you think about it any PC's sound settings can be configured to downmix to 2 speakers.

If you have a 2 speaker 'stereo' setup (as a lot of people do) and you play a DVD with 6Ch audio. You still hear 'all' the audio but just out of two speakers.

So it all depends on how the user sets up (or had their PC set up) in the first place!

Anybody who has a problem or thinks they are missing some audio channels should check their 'speaker setup'. Control Panel / Sound & Audio Devices / Advanced.

'Creative' are always advising people who upgrade from a 2 speaker setup to a 4 speaker or full surround setup, to check this before contacting them with a problem.

[scharfis_brain]

I am RV9-Fan, too.
And have found this: http://www.real.or.kr/helix/vidperf9.pdf

But i doubt, that those extremely pro-RV9 results are real.
I think, they had been paid from Real to publish this.

What are you thinking about this document?

[BiaTch 5.0]

Originally posted by Sirber
I read somewhere that Ogg Vorbis supports 256 channels... :D
Yes but what good is it if no OGG decoder supports it?

[Sirber]

The hardware also :)

[Atamido]

I was going to make a bitter comment here about how Xiph never got around to making an Ogg/Vorbis DirectShow filter, but I decided I won't. :rolleyes:

[Sirber]

Why not? I want to know.

[ooops!]

The results can't be totally correct.

Why the hell did they use these stupid 'original clips' sizes.
352x288 is a PAL VCD format size which should be encoded at 25fps not 30.

When all said and done if somebody, anybody whats to submit encode results they should stick to the correct pixel & fps format ratios:-

NTSC @ 30fps - 720w x 480h for DVD 16:9 / 320w x 240h for 4:3
PAL @ 25fps - 720w x576h for DVD 16:9 / 352w x288h for 4:3

Yep, we all know that 640w x480h is a popular 4:3 VDU size but if you applied the same calculation to 576h, the width would end up at 768. Which is greater DVD's 720.

It's total pants!!!!!!!!

You should only get odd sizes when you crop the black away from an image and even these have standard pixel ratios

[Sirber]

This is from Windows Media Encoder?

[CaptainCarrot]

352x288 is a PAL VCD format size which should be encoded at 25fps not 30
Maybe they had a PAL VCD from Brazil...

[amirm]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
1.
M$ WMV9 is no option than, because you cant get your hands on a real WMV real time streaming server easily AFAIK.
This is a bit like saying you can't buy tea in China :). Every Windows Server comes with a high-performance built in Windows Media Server which streams any WMV/WMA file. It has no per user licensing fee or maximum capability fee as do competing solutions from Real. If this is for a commercial distribution, then there are a ton of service providers that can stream the content for you so you don't know have to learn how to do it.

Indeed, if you want a streaming server that can stream discreet multi-channel audio, our server is the only solution in town. Just use WMA Pro and you are there. There should be no worry as far as PC compatibility as the WMA Pro decoder automatically "folds down" the stream to the number of speakers the user has. It can map from any number of speakers in the source to any number on the output as set in the speaker configuration control panel (e.g. it can go from 5.1 to 4 or 2 speakers).

If you don't want a Windows server, there are caching appliances from Netap, Cisco and others which also stream and cache our format.

We also offer our protocols for licensing so anyone can implement them regardless of their OS choice.

Amir
Microsoft

[ooops!]

No, I work as a video editor and all video image sizes conform to set ratios - 1.33:1 (4:3), 1.77:1 (16:9) 1.85:1, 2.35:1 etc.

Each of these can be applied to any re-encoded video output. Such as a 1.77:1 (16:9) source image should always encodes to 720x416 when viewed on a 4:3 monitor.

If I have time one day I'll post all the correct output sizes.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by amirm

Every Windows Server comes with a high-performance built in Windows Media Server which streams any WMV/WMA file. I'm sure that, for many of us here, a multi-thousand dollar OS license is a bit out of their league....

Is there a WMS for your run of the mill joe blow who is running Win9x or XP home edition? Nothing commercial, just someone who wants to stream a file or two.

[Sirber]

Originally posted by 31 Flavas
I'm sure that, for many of us here, a multi-thousand dollar OS license is a bit out of their league....

Is there a WMS for your run of the mill joe blow who is running Win9x or XP home edition? Nothing commercial, just someone who wants to stream a file or two.

@31 Flavas

I AM THE ONLY RV9 NERD :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

YOU GO TO HELL, YO GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE :angry:

ah and also, The goal of Microsoft is to make money, don't forget :)

[amirm]

Originally posted by 31 Flavas
I'm sure that, for many of us here, a multi-thousand dollar OS license is a bit out of their league....

Is there a WMS for your run of the mill joe blow who is running Win9x or XP home edition? Nothing commercial, just someone who wants to stream a file or two.

You can pick up a Windows server for $800 or so. I just checked on Amazon and our latest and greatest in the form of Windows 2003 server is listed for $919. It is not pocket change of course but is not thousands either.

As for your question, I don't know of any cheaper solutions other than using a web server. You would lose a lot of the streaming features but the player will support progressive download this way.

Amir

[avih]

@Sirber:
i know you're joking, however, due to more strict enforcing of the forums rules lately (too many lamerz around), it'll be appreciated if next time you'll use a bit less 'extreme' jokes ;) ok?

thanx.
avih

[Sirber]

It's like Real. You install a web server and voila! You can stream :)

@avih

No problem :) I was only joking :( You hurt my feelings :eek: ;)

[avih]

@Sirber:
you've got my sincere apologies, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do ;)

[Sirber]

:)

No problem. But make sure it won't append again. :rolleyes:

[avih]

lol, same 4u ;)

[Ramirez]

Hi amir, what's up? Two questions:
Where is the latest beta build of wmv9 vcm codec? As a moment only 9.0.1.282 build available, that would be great if we could test every beta build of the codec,why aren't you updating the download page accordingly to the latest beta build?

Probably you're the wrong person to ask that kind of question but I'll ask it anyway
Why wmv9 avi cannot be played from OGM? Where is the problem exactly?

Thanks allot!!

Btw: VCM codec is totally rocks,I like it allot.

[Sirber]

Maybe it's because Microsoft don't want it in OGMs...

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Sirber Maybe it's because Microsoft don't want it in OGMs... ... yes, but M$ seems to love matroska, or we did our job better ;) ....

[Ramirez]

I think that there is another possible explanation; maybe the problem is in ogg vorbis DS filter,its was last modified in 06.10.02,does anybody still working on it?

[Sirber]

I don't think so. Tobias' lastest is 0.9.9.5 ?

[Ramirez]

Well, go here (http://tobias.everwicked.com/oggds.htm) and see for you self,have a look at the top of the page.

Current version 0.9.9.5 (last modified 06.10.2002)

[ChristianHJW]

Update on WMV9 in matroska :

VdubMod works just fine when selecting MKV as output format with WMV9 VCM. On playback the filter graph builds fine, but doesnt start working.

For decoding ( strange enough ) its not the WMV9 DMO filter used but another filter called 'AVIdecompressor' , same as with WMV9 in AVI. WE guess we know where the problem might be, as Nicolas ( the author of the Rududu codec ) was reporting similar problems with his DShow filter, it seems the current matroska DSF doesnt send the very first frame marked as a keyframe yet ....

[ooops!]

So after all this chat............... What format is 'The Producer' going for?

[The Producer]

Thanks for all your suggestions guys!

Basically, this is how i'm probably going to do it.

The streamed file, (which I will NOT host, only encode), will be a WM9 5.1 file (In another forum, I mentioned RV9, and found that all of my potential viewers dislike the format and accuse it's player of spying . . . I don't believe that, but . . )

The download and play will be hosted at MY site for people who can't stream, but still want to watch it in high quality: a DivX file with AC3 and/or (space permitting) a MP3 for users who just want a Pro-logic/stereo version.

In past I tried using WMV 7, and I disliked what I saw.
http://edison.ncssm.edu/dlt/swat/misc/gamers_charged_225.wmv
(This is old, made in 2001-2002. I'm a lot better now, using tools like 3DS Max and Cinema 4D!)

Compared to the crystal clear uncompressed AVI this was made from, it looks like junk.
Maybe this time around, I can make it better since i'm alot more knowledgeable in video encoding, especially when it comes to DVD and VCD.