Anyone using DV for analog capture?

[sync]

All my video equipment is in a different room than my computer. It isn't feasible to bring them together at the moment. So I'm thinking of using my DV camcorder for capture. I'm wondering if this would work ok.

One of my sources is Tivo recordings. The original source is an MPEG-2 satellite signal which is decoded by the receiver and fed to Tivo where is again encoded in MPEG-2. I would then hook up my camcorder to the Tivo which would decode and transfer to DV. I would then encode it yet once again to MPEG-2. The Tivo recording looks pretty good if I use a high bitrate.

I have two questions:
1) will using DV to capture a variety of analog signals work ok?
2) how encoding/decoding/recoding is feasible with MPEG-2?

I realize there are a lot of variables involved in both questions and I don't expect a definitive answer.

[SomeJoe]

DV can capture analog signals quite well. I capture from analog all the time to a DV codec for editing in Premiere, and then subsequently encode to MPEG-2. The end result can look great provided the source material is good and the MPEG-2 encoder is a good one.

However, the triple MPEG-2 encoding that your video is experiencing is not going be very conducive to quality. ;) Here's some things you may look at/investigate:

- Use AviSynth to run some type of noise reduction filter on the video before the final MPEG-2 encode. This will remove some mosquito noise and quantization noise from the previous MPEG encodes, and allow your MPEG-2 encode to allocate more bits to picture image rather than noise.

- There are some available hardware mods for the Tivo that allow the Tivo to be accessible via FTP over an Ethernet network (I believe the cards are called a TivoNet). This would allow you to transfer the MPEG-2 file stored on the Tivo's hard drive directly to your PC, and convert/edit it there, or if editing is not necessary, just demux it and author it to DVD. This would reduce the number of MPEG-2 encodes in the chain from 3 to 2.

- You said your original signal is a satellite. If it's DirecTV here in the US, there are DirecTV versions of the Tivo called DirecTivos. They record the satellite's MPEG-2 video directly to their harddrive with no intervening conversion to analog. Combine that with a TivoNet card and the number of MPEG-2 encodes is reduced to 1 (only the satellite compression).

I've never done either of the above mods to a Tivo, but I have read about them. Check out the Deal Database Forum (http://dealdatabase.com/forum/), which is dedicated to modifying your Tivo. :)

Please note: Many Tivo mods are perfectly legal (such as adding the TivoNet card, or changing to a larger hard drive). However, there are illegal Tivo mods as well (circumventing paying for the Tivo service). I do not condone (nor does Deal Database) any illegal modifications of your Tivo.

[sync]

Thanks for the info. I used to have DTV but now I use Dish. Extracting the data from a DirecTivo certainly would be ideal. DirecTivo doesn't work well for me because I'm in a rural area and don't get locals. And DirecTivo doesn't have additional video inputs like the standalone units. I'll check out the forum you mentioned.

[vhelp]

hi sync,

FWIW.. I use my Canon ZR-10 for the same basic purpose as you.

..xcept, I call my seutp, miniTIVO and the quality IMO, is
as good as if I captured it "live" during show airing time.

Example of my miniTIVO setup:

Satellite -> ZR-10 (taped) -> Capture (analog or dv) -> Encode !!

I prefer to record the Satellite source to miniDV tapes so that I
can later on, capture and encode them. I either use any of my many
Analog capture cards, or ADVC-100. Other times, I capture "directly"
from the source, using my ADVC0-100 or my NEW Osprey-210 card. This
card has proven VERY worthy of noting here. In fact, those two sample
clips below were from the Osprey-210 !! So, check'em out :D :D
Another benefit of the miniDV taped route is that, if you make a mistake,
you can always redo it. Something you can't do w/ a pass-through route. I can't begin to tell you how many times I had to redo (for
whatever the reason) my footage. Quality ?? no difference and no loss that
I can see :D :D

If you wanna see some of my work, and while "samples" last.. head
on over to this LINK (http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3515) and D/L the clips. I'm always replacing them
w/ new ones. I also have a link at vcdhelp, VHELP's Samples.. (http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93852) so
do check there as well.

Let me know what ya think of that setup.
-vhelp

[sync]

Hi vhelp,

I also have a ZR10! It's good to know that it has decent analog to digital conversion.

Why do you use an analog card to capture DV? Wouldn't a 1394 card be much better?

I'll be checking out your links.

Thanks.

[vhelp]

hi sync,

>> Why do you use an analog card to capture DV? Wouldn't a 1394 card be much better?

well, because in the past, after many long months of beating on DV and
color washouts, I found out that the ZR-10 was the cause (due to quality
or else, something to do w/ my cam) that gave me bad quality via DV
and Firewire - - from DV cam to HD via Firewire.

Only later, I got the ADVC-100, and found out that it was my ZR-10 that
was the cause of color washout quality. I learned that the ADVC-100
gave GREAT quality .AVI files, and I recapped my statement about DV
having bad color reproduction quality.

It was during that time, that I was utilizing the A/V connects instead
of the DV Firewire, and found that I got an "exact" replica of the
source, when I recorded my Satellite source to miniDV tapes and later,
used an Analog capture card and captured the miniDV tapes. From that
moment on, I was practicing this route (using S-Video to my ZR-10)

Now, when I go the miniTIVO route, I continue this practice, and
capture via S-Video from miniDV tapes. I always have an "exact" copy
of the source as is. There isn't any LOSS of quality capturing from
the miniDV tapes. I don't know why, but there isn't !! Logic would
dictate that once it goes through the DV codec built-in, that the
quality would be compressed (hence color loss etc) But, perhaps, in
this process, the digital written to miniDV tapes is not touched, until
it passes through the DV (Firewire) process (which I never use anyways) - - That's when the quality differs.

When you check out my samples, you'll see what I mean ;) ;)

I can say for sure, that my cam is not the only one that suffers this
color washout, when DV Firewired to hd. I've seen other peoples DV
.AVI files and noticed that same thing. However, the ADVC-100 is one
exception for sure. It pretty much looks like or compares to, an Analog
capture source, though it's DV in nature. And I use Type 2, not 1.

I also utilize a 4 position switch box (4psb) in this setup.
The method of my connects are a bit weired, but works.

* I have one main lead (monster cables) that connect to my ZR-10,
..to my 4psb's OUT
* I have my Sat connected to 1 IN
* I have my JVC S-VHS conntected to 2 IN
* I have OTHER DEVICE connected to 3 IN (can be anything)
* i have my Osprey-210 connected to 4 IN

Ok, here's the trick I use, and don't have to connect and un-connect
devices (ie, my ZR-10)

* when I want to play my ZR-10's miniDV tape, so that I can capture
w/ my Osprey-210 card, I only have to press 4 IN and press PLAY on my
ZR-10. that's it!!

But, hay.. what IF I wanted to capture Satellite DIRECTLY to my Osprey-210 card ??
Easy !! Just press 4 IN and 1 IN together, and vualla !!

But, wait, it gets better.. What if I want to records to miniDV tape
w/ my ZR-10 (for later capturing etc) AND ALSO capture it as well (samultaniously)
EASY again.. I just press 4 IN, 1 IN and, I'm now capturing w/ my cap card, and
recording to miniDV tapes.

It's a bit ar-kay-ick, but works. I also utilize my TBC-100 somewhere's in
this mix. Believe it or not, I use to use THREE switch box setups.

-vhelp

[sync]

vhelp,

My 1394 captures also don't look good on the pc. But I found that if I copy it back to tape and watch it on tv it looks just fine. So I don't think there's anything wrong with the 1394 capture. Since I'm only using the pc for processing I don't really care how it looks there, although it is disconcerting.

But I still haven't come up with a way encoding the interlaced video that looks good. So I can see the merits of your method. Your samples look real good.

[sync]

Originally posted by SomeJoe
DV can capture analog signals quite well. I capture from analog all the time to a DV codec for editing in Premiere, and then subsequently encode to MPEG-2. The end result can look great provided the source material is good and the MPEG-2 encoder is a good one.

However, the triple MPEG-2 encoding that your video is experiencing is not going be very conducive to quality. ;) Here's some things you may look at/investigate:

- Use AviSynth to run some type of noise reduction filter on the video before the final MPEG-2 encode. This will remove some mosquito noise and quantization noise from the previous MPEG encodes, and allow your MPEG-2 encode to allocate more bits to picture image rather than noise.


Can you recommend a Premiere filter for noise reduction? I haven't learned AviSynth yet, but it looks like I should since people are constantly referring to it.