Progressive Video DV Cam ??? ;)

[amorfeusz]

Last week I got a regular JVC-DVL120U, shot some interlaced video,. played around with deinterlacing.. etc.. was a bit disappointed with the quality loss when converting to DIVX..

However, I just received my new JVC-DVL820U (got it for same price as the 120U on ebay, so returning 120U) oh.. for under $350 US btw..

And noticed something interesting - this camera has two modes.

1. Allows you to capture regular interlaced video to tape/firewire.

2. Allows you to capture progressive stills (via a progressive shutter system) onto the 8MB memory card (or whatever size u put in) but not record anything to TAPE...

But, when you have it plugged in via Firewire the camera lets you capture Full Motion Progressive Video to your comp ;)

And the quality is much, much better - as it seems to be using the cameras full potential 1MP CCD, colors are truer, image sharper, oh and did I mention the video is pure clean PROGRESSIVE? I can now finally watch the original DV files on my LCD....now I can say digital camcorders are wonderful.

I converted to high bitrate DivX happily without the need to deinterlace - and the video looks nice and smooth. Would be nice if once could use a 20GB portable iPOD (or a laptop in your backpack... recording time limited by battery life and HD space..) with firewire to capture progressive video straight from the camera while away from a PC. Skip the tape, skip the interlaced video hassle :P And the high cost of a dedicated progressive camera...

Check out some frame grabs on my new JVC-DVL820 website:

http://www.geocities.com/amorfeusz/

I also included one short clip of the original progressive DV video. And one longer one converted to DivX.

Same camera, same zoom setting, same everything - well I had to move may hand again ; -except the Video to Memory switch moved.

Let me know what you guys think.

P.S. I wish I could do some outside sunny shots, but my cable isnt long enough )... Wireless firewire would rule ;P Bluetooth?

[bb]

Didn't have the time to download your samples yet, so: what framerate do you get in the progressive capture mode you discovered? Full 25/30 fps?

bb

[amorfeusz]

Well the issue is that because its transferring via firewire in DV format - the file's format is NTSC DV, so the reported framerate is 29.97. I've been recording a few samples and motion does seem rather smooth and when I look at individual frames in virtualdub each of the 30 frames in a second does look distinct. Any suggestions on how I could better test it?

[bb]

No, if consecutive frames differ, it's clear you get the full frame rate. So it seems you found an interesting feature, which may be available in other camcorders, too.

Now that we know that the cam is capable of progressive scan in principle, I wonder why you cannot record it to tape. The reason is probably because they want you to buy more expensive camcorders...

bb

[amorfeusz]

Yep - the actual tape mechanism completley shuts off when I switch to the 'memory' mode- rather clever of them :devil:

I read some more and found that the JVC HG digital still is in fact a progressive shutter system. So it's not true progressive CCD, but I must admit that after trying every method of software deinterlacing I could get my hands on I find this to be the most suitable for my taste.


"..Progressive Shutter System By using a mechanical shutter with an interlace scanning system, the progressive shutter provides a progressive scan performance, while the camcorder captures sharp and clear images"

Check this post for some more info :

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=11438-3B60EFCB-199%40storefull-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net&rnum=4

[AudioVideoMaster]

Very interesting topic here! Wish I had thought of it first!
Gave it a shot with my Panasonic PV-DV901 miniDV camcorder.
I captured in card mode with progressive ON and then in tape mode with progressive mode. Both straight into the computer and onto the hard drive without commiting either to tape or card.

Here are my results on my site:
http://www.2dreamers.com/video/progressive.shtml

Didn't do any extra deinterlace on either.
Makes me want a laptop with firewire to carry around with me everywhere I shoot so I can capture the progressive video straight into the computer!:D :D :D

[amorfeusz]

:D

AVMaster,have you tried changing the 'digital still' quality settings on your camera? From those specific shots it seems like the memory mode is a little blurrier (background) than the interlaced tape mode..

[AudioVideoMaster]

Well I went back and rechecked all the settings. But it was already on the highest settings for the picture card mode. :(
But I'm just happy that the images aren't interlaced! I hate it when I've got this beautiful shot that looks good in person and on the LCD but when I go to watch it on the computer screen those dang interlace effect rears it's ugly head.
Anyway, I'm going to mess around with this thing with some other settings, zooms, and locations see if it improves.

[vhelp]

hay amorfuesz,

I just finished D/L'ing your progressiveclip.avi clip.

Nice quality. I'm VERY impressed. To bad my Canon ZR-10 doesn't
have a Progressive Scan for picture taking as yours.

But, I'm messing around with it anyways, as it has a Low-Light
feature (which jerks sort of) giving me the impression that it's
shooting progressive. In any case, I'm very interested and have
ben tempted to play around some more.

If I should find anything interesting, I'll post. But, for now,
you .avi clip was perfect !!

Oh, congrats on your finding. You deserve a pat on the back !

I may have an idea on your wireless shooting he he..
-vhelp

[amorfeusz]

Thanks :D

Let me know about the wireless option - Seeing my room in progressive is getting a bit boring.. considering a 15ft cable, but that'll only get me to the kitchen and maybe out the window :mad: .

Noticed that even the analog outputs on the camera output progressive in 'memory mode' - So I could technically use my 2.4ghz analog sender/reciever to do wireless progressive analog captures - but theres the DV-Analog-digital conversion there..

Saw cool Direct DV Recorder 60gig, portable, but it costs $1000 on eBay. This is obviously the best option, but too expensive for me - especially since this is just a 'hobby'.

http://www.innomind.org/technologynews/capdiv.htm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/product/250533/VIFSFK/REG/4079

The 2nd camera option is also interesting, I think one could get any cheap ($200-$300) miniDV cam with just DV-In to transfer the progressive directly to tape. Hell, you could even sell the lens and everything else for parts ;P

The ultimate option would be to 'hack' the camera's electronics so that it doesn't turn off the tape mechanism...or so that the progressive shutter system is turned on in regular tape mode.. this would surely cause these JVC's to sell like crazy.......


Also just noticed there's no IR filter/block and with an infrared light source this cam shoots with 'Sony's Nightvision' ;) Getting the $50 sony IR lamp. Maybe it'll even let me do the x-ray thing :devil:

[vhelp]

hi all.

FWIW.. I discovered that on my ZR-10, the "low-light" setting sort
of drops (or duplicates) a frame, and when I capture it, it's at
15 fps. I'm still messing around w/ it, but hadn't the time to cont.
cause of other issues that's come up w/ my other pc.

I did some checking around (for in-expansive cams) and found one at
Wal-Mart @ $389 for a Panasonic Model: PV-DV53
Unfortunately, they were out of it, and didn't know when they would
have them in stock. I will check back w/ them next week. Maybe try
it (return it if it doesn't do progressive w/ "that" trick talked
about, above)

I'd be happy to check out another cam (for the right price) if I
could get a progressive capture out of it. even if it ment going at
it the awkward way w/ that firewire route. There's probably an
answer to that one.

The only problem I have w/ DV cams is that when you PAN accross the
room, that the images become too spacial during Interlace frames.
These are very hard to over come w/ a de-Interlace method, and results
in a blue of double-frame. Oh well. I'll continue messing around.

-vhelp

[dominik]

The progressive mode of these camcorders isn't real progressive. It's just adaptive deinterlacing. It looks better then deinterlace it later, because it's done before the DV-codec.

There is only ONE consumer-class DV-camcorder which has a REAL PROGRESSIVE MODE: The Panasonic AG-DVX100 (http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_ag-dvx100.html)

[dominik]

Check out these samples and get amazed! AG-DVX100-Samples (http://new.dvinfo.net/panasonic/media/index.php)

[damageboy]

Hi,
I tried to do something similar with my Sony PC-110 NTSC cam
and it worked!

I got the same results as you did...
When in "Camera" mode, the cam saves interlaced DV both to the MiniDV tape & to the Firewire link
When in "Memory" mode, I can save a progressive stream through the firewire link to my drive.... :)
The progressive clip I've saved does contain 30 distinct frames all progressinve without a single artifact....

Can someone please explain to me why doesn't the camera save progressive frames on the MiniDV natively? this is extremely annoying... :)

[amorfeusz]

Dominik : I'm not sure about the >$3000 Panasonic AG-DVX100 being a consumer class camcorder, considering since its about a 1000% difference in price from what I paid for my 'progressive shutter' camera. Although I don't know about how much the others go for, so maybe it-s consumer level in comparison..

If you know where I can get it for less than $3K let me know...

I surely wouldn't mind having one and recording true progressive to minidv - I do admit though, I'm jealous :D


damageboy : good to hear you got that working also.. now we just need a 'smart' portable firewire HD, I wish I had some technical skill in that respect.

[dominik]

OK, it's a proconsumer camcorder. But the next real progressive-scan camcorder is 1000% more expensive then the AG-DVX100.
Did you watch the sample-videos? The picture-quality is exorbitant!

[vhelp]

hi dominik..

shucks.. darnet.. .. .. any chance you can do a few divX versions
instead (in addition to your already Xvids) ?? ?? ??

I don't have this codec - I don't use it, NOR do I plan on installing
it. But, if you can do a few divX clips, I would REALLY appreciate
it, cause I'd love to see how your PROGRESSIVE ones look like ?? ??

Thanks, from vhelp.

[vhelp]

hi dominik, again..

I darnet.. I just realized, your samples are in .MOV format :eek: :eek:

Thats even WORSE !! I have a serious issue w/ my system and .MOV files.

REALLY !! And, I can't even un-install these codecs. I've tried to
no avail, but I'm stuck with them. And, everytime I try and reinstall
them, I get the same issue w/ blastid messages about updating the
codecs, and not to mention, how TMPG constantly pops up a .MOV codec
message. I can not get rid of it. No un-installs work either.
So, I'm stuck w/ my fauty .MOV install - please don't try and help me
with it. Ben there, and dont it all. Thanks.

Sorry, but Xvid and .MOV formats are the "root of all EVIL" for my system.

So, could you provide some divX sample ?? If not, then don't worry.
Thank you for your time.

@amorfeusz, (and others) I've ben doing my homeword here..

..Researching the following CAMS, under $900 US dollars:
* Sony's: DCR-TRV22 2.5" LCD / and DCR-TRV38 3.5" LCD modles
* Panasonic's: PVG-s50s and 8MB SD
* JVC's: GRDX95US

Sony DCR-TRV22/Sony DCR-TRV38: ( SCORE=best )
* was fantasic on the 13" TV screen. I couldn't get over the fluidness of
..the PROGRESSIVE display on the TV - - no matter how hard and fast it
..panned the CAM, it was fantastically smooth and clean (no Interlace issues
..I could see) but could have ben just my eyes. But, the clarity was awsome.
..colors and sharpness had no jaggies and was just plain clean. The other
..CAMS were a bit on the NOISEY side, that I could tell (brief time I picked each
..up and tested)
* the TRV38 had a 3.5" screen but was not connected to a TV. I'll assume it
..has the same quality as above.
* however, I did not like the fact that you had to use a touch-screen for
..all the controls, vs. real buttons.
* 16:9 cenima mode. Well, after careful looksees, I found that it cuts off
..the top and bottom portion. But, you know what, that's ok. Cause as you
..are shooting footage, you only need what's in your view he he.. and isn't
..that what those camera men do too, he he.. ??
* on another website, they say this CAM has PROGRESSIVE SHUTTER SYSTEM, and
..although I've read its definition, it leaves me confused. But, never the
..less, if I could use the trick (technique) above, I'd be just as happy w/
..the quality (which is better than my de-Interlace versions)

Pannasonic: PVG-s50s ( SCORE ?? )
* is saying that it is a PROGRESSIVE CAM. But, I have reservatoins. I do
..believe, however, that it will pass the test laid out above, via the firewire
..trick.

JVC's: GRDX95US ( SCORE ?? )
* still doing research on.

So, the Sony DCR-TRV22 seems to be a good buy for my purposes.
I'm not sure if I should actually go the extra $100 more for the TRV38 model,
less I can be pusuaded that it's worth that extra $100 (sides the 3.5" LCD)

Anyone have any comments on these CAMS ??

Now, getting to the point.. I have this idea, that might work for my uses.
Ok.. using the trick above, and pending the right CAM to get, If I RIG my
Canon ZR-10's S-Video to the NEW CAM, I could (theoretically) accomplish the
same feat as the firewire, he he.. I could record to miniDV tapes, my outside
footage. I mean, I'm already using my ZR-10 as a miniTIVO unit anyways. If I
RIG my ZR-10 to the TRV22 (assming I end up getting it) I could shoot PROGRESSIVE
to tape. Mind you.. I spent only $200 for the ZR-10 - - swas a steal !! So,
spending ~ $900 is next to nothing, vs. $3000 or more.. smart, hay ??

Look, I'm doing lots of parties, weddings and now, school graduations and cerimonies
and other fun stuff.

Any opinions on the above would be greatly appreciated, if not, some ideas to
those that are looking for an alternative to their new trick.

Have a good evening everyone.
-vhelp

[dominik]

I've converted one sample-.mov-file (DV, QuickTime) of the AG-DVX100 to DivX:
beach.avi (http://magic.dominik.li/blablabla/beach.avi)

[vhelp]

hi dominik :)

Thank you !! :D :D ..and I can't wait he he..

I've ben messing around some more w/ my DV cam - finding the best Interlace
encoding and well as de-Interlace, ..but I can't get any better w/
it. Shouldn't complain. $200 DV cam is a steal. But, I'm D/L'ing
your clip anyways, for comparison - sure it wont compare hehe..

-vhelp

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by vhelp
I'm not sure if I should actually go the extra $100 more for the TRV38 model,less I can be pusuaded that it's worth that extra $100 (sides the 3.5" LCD)

Anyone have any comments on these CAMS ??


I can't speak about the others but I recently purchased the Sony TRV-38 and have not yet found anything about the camera that I don't like! It's been wonderful! It's worth the extra money for the large 3.5" screen. The larger screen size gives you a much better idea if something you've just filmed was good or not. Even if you don't think it's worth it for the quality of playback, it's invaluable when it comes to the touchscreen controls. The larger screen makes using the touchscreen controls a breeze. Many of the "buttons" are even larger than you would get with actual "hard buttons". Some people say they do not like touchscreen controls but I am not certain they've really done much "real world" testing. I'll admit it was sort of awkward at first but you get used to it and now I would not do without it. I can actually make adjustments "on the fly". Since I can still see the video behind the semi-transparent "buttons", I am able to keep my subjects in frame and not have the camera bounce around as I search for hard buttons on the side of the camera. It really is the sort of thing you become more thankful for the more you use it.

Spot Metering and Spot Focusing are very cool and helpful features of this camera too. All you have to do is touch the area of the screen you want and the camera automatically adjusts exposure or focus to that area you touched.

To keep the focus of the topic, I must mention a bit about progressive scan. If you check my other post in the DV forum, you'll find information I got from Sony on their TRV-50 which is a true progressive scan miniDV camera. It was the one I considered getting when I was deciding on what to purchase. Even though it was only $1500 (very inexpensive for progressive scan!), I did not personally feel it was a feature worth a $600 price difference. I've found that leaving my material interlaced and encoding to DVD produces excellent results! If I recorded weddings, etc. for a living and made enough money, I would say the $600 would easily be worth it. For what I do, it's just not. I'll sell this one and get a progressive scan (probably for the same $900 price! hehehe) in a couple of years. :)

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by damageboy
[B]Hi,
I tried to do something similar with my Sony PC-110 NTSC cam
and it worked!

When in "Memory" mode, I can save a progressive stream through the firewire link to my drive.... :)

I have a Sony PC-120 PAl, which is a similar model but ont he PAL side. I've also heard about that kind of thing, that capture bia memory mode is progressive, but i caan't do that, or maybe i'm just doing it wrong, i don't know.

1) Are you actually capturing from a miniDV tape via firewire trough "memory mode" to your PC?
2) or is just capturing from the cam (not a MiniDV tape, i mean just what you see) trough firewire to the PC via "Memory mode"?

If 1) how do you do that? i can't play any miniDV tape when switching to "memory mode".
If 2) useless for me, i'm not going to take my PC with me on the street when i'm shooting :)

For a film look, a good trick is to used a slow shutter, but you got more jerky shooting, on a PAL something like 1/25 (1/30 in NTSC) seems the lowest reasonable setting, but just do settings, for me i think is too jerky, may be shooting with 1/30 and progressive convert of footage then will be a good option (Bob in avysinth or fielddeinterlace), i will test it and post results.

A very good site for those interested in DV stuff (check the forum "DViCommunity"...awesome information):

http://www.dvinfo.net

[damageboy]

Hi jkwarras,
it's definitely (2)... :(
You can use a laptop computer, if it's small enough...
or one of those 2.5" drive systems with DV connection
This also remove the "time" limit you have with miniDV tapes....

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by damageboy
Hi jkwarras,
it's definitely (2)... :(
You can use a laptop computer, if it's small enough...
or one of those 2.5" drive systems with DV connection
This also remove the "time" limit you have with miniDV tapes....

That's what i was thinking :( You can only capture what you see, staying plug via firewire to the PC. I don't know if using a laptop computer will really be safe, even faster processor will still bring some drops (but anyway Dv tapes have drops), but in some future i'm sure this special drives for DV and DVcam will be amazing, no tapes, just directly to the computer.

For those who might be interested. I've done some test with slow shutter 1/25 on a Sony PC-120, then convert it to progressive footage with Bob (avisynth), which delivers you with a 50fps footage which is pure progressive. It doesn't look fluid in the computer, but thats ok, because I have a PIII 800 Mhz that's not fast enough, but it really looks fluid when you send the video to the DV cam, amazing. but still don't be very sure about that "poor film look". What i was really surprise is the fact that you can render a DV Avi with 50 fps, normally you're only allowed to do either a PAL (25pfs) or a NTSC (30fps).

I've read on the Dvinfo.net forum that you can plug 2 DVcam, in one you play the interlaced DV tape footage, in the other you set it to memory mode and you plug this to the PC and then you capture in progressive. Still don't know how to plug via firewire this 2 cams, i only see plugin it via analog which means you loose quality.

Regards

Ivan

[vhelp]

@ TRILIGHT..

have you discovered your Sony model cam can shoot Progressive (or shall I
say, semi-progressive) yet ??

It's not the best, but it SURE beets the hell out of having to resort to
de-interlacing your footage !! not to mention, some speed increate
in your encodes. And, I for one, wouldn't mind by-passing this step
in my encodes.

Nod your head if you know what I'm talking about hehe..

-vhelp
ps: forget what your :rolleyes: see's..

[SiliconSoul]

That panasonic is the ONLY proconsumer DV cam that does progressive? what about the Canon gl2 and xl1s and the sonys that equal the canon g2?

i had heard they do progressive also.