Will upgrading my audio card solve synch problems?

[bobspliff]

I'm using an AIW9000pro and have been having synch problems since day one (surprise surprise).

Although I'm not dropping any frames in iuVCR when capping VHS, the audio still seems to drift in and out of synch slightly - occasionally enough to be very noticeable. This is with both the synch options enabled (using the audio as the master stream) - without synch options enabled it's terribly out of synch.

This seemed to improve when I upgraded from my onboard sound to a Sound Blaster Live 5.1. So, will upgrading further to something like a Terratec DMX 6Fire (which I intended to purchase at some point anyway), completely eradicate all my synch problems. And is there another, cheaper card out there that would have the same effect?

A simple yes or no answer from as many of you as possible would be greatly appreciated :).

Thanks,
Bob

[Ookami]

Maybe. :)

Altough I would rather try other software first as I doubt that your problem is because of your soundcard in the first place.

I also asume that you have read and followed the guides from the FAQ.

Good luck,

Mijo.

[jamesp]

Try VirtualVCR instead. VirtualVCR (http://www.digtv.ws/) I can't get IuVCR to sync properly either, but VirtualVCR does fine!

To get VirtualVCR to dynamically sync, check 'Resample Audio dynamically' within the options.

Edit - Failing that, try AVI_IO. Its a VFW program which drops video frames to sync. It works fine (better than IUVCR) but its a bit dated.

James

[808state]

In short answer form…NO

I have had over 5 el-cheapo TV cards & tried them all with 3 different sound cards ( SB live 1st generation, Hercules XP Home Theater, and a Turtle Beach Santa Cruise) still had audio sync troubles. The problem is NOT the sound card(s) it’s the capture cards. You need a capture card that has on board audio with a sync clock.

[Ookami]

Originally posted by 808state
In short answer form…NO

I have had over 5 el-cheapo TV cards & tried them all with 3 different sound cards ( SB live 1st generation, Hercules XP Home Theater, and a Turtle Beach Santa Cruise) still had audio sync troubles. The problem is NOT the sound card(s) it’s the capture cards. You need a capture card that has on board audio with a sync clock.

Erm, to make it short... That's wrong :) .

To make a sweeping generalisation that capture card with onboard audio will solve all the sync problems is just as wrong to say the cheap solutions (GPU+audio card etc.) are always causing sync problems. The problems (and I must also add that the different clocks are only ONE of the possible causes to off-sync) are known, but, I must say that I only got sync problems with 2 sources on all my captures with my cheap solutions. And that with a crappy soundcard that caused many dropped frames. One time it was the material (wich gives me the same problem with my ADVC 100, BTW), the other time a error in my settings. And I also must add that I'm VERY sensitive to off sync, I notice it numerous time when watching live TV etc., also I've transcoded DVDs with the infamous Power DVD + audio live recording + manual syncing way, so I'm even too sensible to off sync (I, sometimes, see it when I talk to *gasp* real people ;) ).

But, if people buy capture cards with horrendous drivers/don't follow the normal advices (see FAQ)/capture even heavily compressed like to MPEG1/play C&C Generals while capturing ;) , then it's no wonder that the same have sync problems...

I don't know why this rumor is still around (just like the VHS is about 320x240).

I would be interested in more about your hassling with off sync etc. as I see that your around quite a long time and that you have, probably, much experience. What was your hardware (chipsets, exact capture card models, OS, driver versions, capture soft etc.)? I would guess that your problem was either based on the hardware side or that you had crappy drivers/capture software, since I take from your comment that a capture card with onboard sound solved all your problems. This is the main reason why many users capture a bit and then give up as it's not that easy like encoding your audio CD to MP3 or similar.

Cheers,

Mijo.

[bobspliff]

Thanks guys,

In response to Jamesp's post... I have tried both AVI_IO and VirtualVCR. Both return errors of some description before I even get to the capturing stage! I'll post more specific details later, as it sounds like I really need to get VirtualVCR up and running.

Thanks,
Bob

[808state]

Ookami

I don’t have much time for this post so I will make it short and sweet, then I will get back when I have more time.

Capture cards I have owned in order

VooDoo3 500 W/TV breakout box---------------video quality was like a bad joke, did no extensive testing.

Dazzle USB MPEG1 Capture (1st generation)-------------Video quality was more of a joke, had sync issues with Sound Blaster Live and Win98

ATI All-In-Wonder 128 (32MB PCI)---------------------Video quality was better but the card was plagued with FAT32 file size limit and no Win 2K drivers (they probably still haven’t released Win2k drivers that work after 3 years) Sync issues disappeared after I connected the input to my sound blaster live instead of into the All-In-Wonder. I was unsatisfied with video quality so never did any caps over an hour. Testing was done with Vdub using both Huffy & MJPEG (Q19-20).

ATI TVWonder----------------has ok video quality but again suffered from shite driver support, no full res caps and horrible sync issues no matter what I tried. Testing was done with Vdub, VirtualVCR, and wdmmiscutils, BTDMDrivers
Using both Huffy & MJPEG (Q19-20).

Pinnacle DV-500 + ----------------------------Perfect sync on clips over 1 hour but suffered from heavy pixilation from using the Pinnacle proprietary codec during caps. The card was locked from using any other codec’s so I offed it on E-Bay.

AverTV (rebagged Pinnacle PVR) -------------------Produced the best looking video out of all the cards I have tried to this day but suffered from massive audio sync Testing was done with Vdub, VirtualVCR, wdmmiscutils, BTDMDrivers
Using both Huffy & MJPEG (Q19-20) and uncompressed 16-24bit RGB.

Pinnacle PVR--------------------Ok video quality but horrible sync issues.

ASUS 8200 GE Force Ti-500 Deluxe ------------------------ Produces heavily oversaturated whites…found a fix but still think the video looks washed out. Also suffers from minor sync issues when capping with the sync modified V-Dub

OS systems I have tried

Win98
Win98SE
WinME----------------------------------Hated it
Win2K SP1-SP2-SP3-------------This my primary OS
WinXP Pro------------------------Hated it

My current Gear:
P4 1900 GHz

512 MEG PC 800 MHz

OS Drive WD 40 Gig

RAID drive(s) 2 WD 100 Gig

RAID Promise Ultra 100 TX2 (Latest & greatest drivers)

Sound Card(s) Turtle Beach Santa Cruise (Latest & greatest drivers)

G Card ASUS 8200 Deluxe (latest NVIDA Detonators)

Mobo ASUS P4b-f (latest bios)


I keep all my drivers up to date, always do a clean install of Win2K when adding any new hardware and Ghost the drive(s) about every two months. I disable all running programs in the background before rebooting winblows.


Well that’s about it for my nightmare capping experiences. I have given up many times but never quit quitting. I am a very experienced DVD ripper so I know the talk and can walk the walk.

[Ookami]

@808state

Thanks a bunch for your explanation.

Don't you, by yourself, fight your own theory with your last posting?

The problem is NOT the sound card(s) it’s the capture cards. You need a capture card that has on board audio with a sync clock.

In your last posting you didn't write that you had sync issues with all your capture solutions altough you really had a nightmare capping experience :) . I still stand by my initial comments.

A new soundcard can improve your capture quality (audio, of course) and lower your dropped frames ratio (video).

BTW, a few comments (sorry, no time, only flew over your posting):

-ATI and Soundblaster Live

As a ex-user of both of these I must say that both of these ad many problems with drivers, so if you've used one/both of these, you could spend months for searching a good/non conflict driver...

I did and found it for ATI, with SB Live, I had to manually disable some stuff (don't remember, anymore, what I did).

So if you've used the SB live for capturing then I don't wonder that you had problems... BTW, for those that think that SB produces good quality hardware/drivers, have a look at the Hydrogenaudio discussions.

-I keep all my drivers up to date

Is not always recommandable! Example, with my ATI card I used drivers that were only a bit newer than the one shipped with the card (after extensive testings of almost every driver :rolleyes: . There is a reason why there's Capturing video is a mix between finding the right settings and being lucky. Nobody will be able to tell you the best possible setup for your system. in the capture guide!

>I am a very experienced DVD ripper so I know the talk and can walk the walk.

I believe you, but capturing and ripping have really not so much in common. When I see your capture testings I would say that you're a experienced capture person, too. :)

Cheers,

Mijo.

[bobspliff]

UPDATE: Have now got VirtualVCR working properly after a re-install and am finding it to be much better than iuVCR... however, I'm now dropping quite a few frames (20 per 10 minutes). Is this intentional in order to keep the capture in synch?

As a ex-user of both of these I must say that both of these ad many problems with drivers, so if you've used one/both of these, you could spend months for searching a good/non conflict driver...
I did and found it for ATI, with SB Live, I had to manually disable some stuff (don't remember, anymore, what I did).

Should I download the latest SB Live drivers off the Creative website or should I just go back to using my onboard sound?

Is not always recommandable! Example, with my ATI card I used drivers that were only a bit newer than the one shipped with the card (after extensive testings of almost every driver :rolleyes: . There is a reason why there's in the capture guide!

I agree with this... I've been using Catalyst 2.3 drivers for a while and when I upgraded to the most recent set of drivers for my card, produced this month, the audio levels went ridiculously high and there was no way I could record from VHS without clipping (even with Line In turned right down). Also, it's impossible to use the Macrovision disable hack with the latest version of the drivers (not that this works most of the time, anyway).

Cheers,
Bob

[BruceL]

Read the FAQ's. I am new to capturing but have seen similiar references as below at virtually every web site that discusses capturing.

The following is right out of Doom's capture FAQ's.

"To test if you get dropped frames that are not caused by the A/V sync you can disable audio capturing. If you still get dropframes you know your problem lies elsewhere (software and/or hardware) and/or source (e.g. bad VHS tape)."

[jamesp]

If you are dropping frames, what codec are you using? If you are using raw try Huffyuv or MJpeg to take the strain of the Harddrive

Jim

Originally posted by bobspliff
UPDATE: Have now got VirtualVCR working properly after a re-install and am finding it to be much better than iuVCR... however, I'm now dropping quite a few frames (20 per 10 minutes). Is this intentional in order to keep the capture in synch?



Should I download the latest SB Live drivers off the Creative website or should I just go back to using my onboard sound?



I agree with this... I've been using Catalyst 2.3 drivers for a while and when I upgraded to the most recent set of drivers for my card, produced this month, the audio levels went ridiculously high and there was no way I could record from VHS without clipping (even with Line In turned right down). Also, it's impossible to use the Macrovision disable hack with the latest version of the drivers (not that this works most of the time, anyway).

Cheers,
Bob

[bobspliff]

Am using HuffyUV... will try without audio as recommended and see what happens. I just find it strange that iuVCR never dropped frames, but VDub drops hundreds and VirtualVCR drops a fair few.

I've read numerous FAQ's and will try the more extreme procedures recommended to reduce drops, if I get desparate.

Thanks,
Bob

[808state]

Ookami

You say that ripping and capping is not the same...well this is true to a certain extent. You see I don’t use proggies like DVD2SVCD, I do everything manually. When I started ripping I took like three guides and worked them into my own methods. My ripps produce much better video quality than DVD2SVCD and I ALWAYS encode video & Audio separately to avoid any sync issues. All the manual steps that I take during a ripp and having the ability to tweak here and there has taught me a great deal about video editing.

Sure capping is somewhat different but not all that different. In my opinion capping just allows you to add more filters that can screw your quality real fast. I am a firm believer in using NO filters to preserve the quality. Noise filters and de-interlacing softens the picture and is not necessary all the time, like people think.

I am trying to find a solution that requires little if any assistance from a PC for capping. I think the combination of Winblows, piss poor drivers and shite hardware (cap cards) has been the root of my troubles. This is why I am seriously considering buying a Canopus ADVC-100 or ADVC-500. I recently bought a ReplayTV that produced near DVD results but had to return the unit cause I was short on cash and wanted to do some further testing before committing. Here is a thread that has some screen shots from the replay TV. Tell me what you think *remember that the snaps have been compressed with JPG to reduce file size for posting*
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146189&highlight=

I like other posters in this thread found VirtualVCR to work like a charm...no dropped frames and perfect audio sync. That is until the video is encoded to MPEG2; the sync was off by more than 2 seconds. I followed the guides and tried every setting but with no luck.

Basically I am fed up with struggling with cheap capture cards, I am to the point where I would like to get some productive time out of my PC(s) and not just hours and hours of trouble shooting. I have only saved 1 clip I have captured over the tree years I have been trying and that was from the ReplayTV recently. I am a picky SOB when it comes to quality and will not stand for sync issues...where’s the stinking delete key has been my modo.

New drivers can be a major bitch but for the most part that do what they are intended to do...fix bugs. When a new driver is released for a capture card that supposedly fixes problems but doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do tells me there is a major problem with hardware.

Anyways no need for me to continue with my bitching, I am convinced that I will never be satisfied with a TV tuner card for my needs so it’s time to move onto something bigger and better ****ADVC-500**** or maybe another replayTV.

Peace

[Ookami]

Originally posted by 808state
Basically I am fed up with struggling with cheap capture cards, I am to the point where I would like to get some productive time out of my PC(s) and not just hours and hours of trouble shooting. I have only saved 1 clip I have captured over the tree years I have been trying and that was from the ReplayTV recently. I am a picky SOB when it comes to quality and will not stand for sync issues...where’s the stinking delete key has been my modo.

Again, thanks for your nice and long posting! It's a pleasure reading them.

Reg. the quote. I feel for you and understand you. As a owner of a ADVC 100 device, I would like to ask you what do you want to do with it? Capture from the VCR? From the TV? BTW, the ADVC is no holy grail either, but that has been adressed in the various ADVC threads.

>ReplayTV

I hate to comment on screenshots and clips. If I would get the card in my hands I would test it and compare it (maybe, no time :( ), so it's more or less guessing. Not to mention the JPEG artifacts :) . Erm, the picture looks way too blurry to me. You're sure you didn't heavy filtered the picture?

You're coda304?

[jamesp]

This is a known bug with VirtualVCR. It puts a few offset audio frames in which Windows Media Player ignores, but Avisynth and Virtualdub still use so they push the audio out of synth. After you capture, open up the avi with the Avi Offset Calculator (http://darkfalz.hypermart.net/software/) . This will show you the offset between the two streams. If the offset shows, say, a correction skew of -160, in your avisynth script add in the line :

Delayaudio (-0.160)

You should have perfect audio sync

Jim

Originally posted by 808state
Ookami

I like other posters in this thread found VirtualVCR to work like a charm...no dropped frames and perfect audio sync. That is until the video is encoded to MPEG2; the sync was off by more than 2 seconds. I followed the guides and tried every setting but with no luck.


Peace

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

>Tell me what you think *remember that the snaps have been compressed with JPG to reduce file size for posting*


this stuff looks...well...mighty awfull!
see if this analog caps look any better
(hmm..they probably do..)
("bt reference" is huff->jpeg,"tv series" is DScaler->jpeg..DScaler includes deinterlacing...so).
http://i4004.bizhosting.com/

[808state]

^^-+I4004+-^^ , Ookami

Come on those screen shots don’t look all that bad…maybe you two cats are just too used to the higher resolution that PAL puts out. The images do look a tad smoothed over, but I think it’s better on the eyes than a cap with tons of jaggies and mosquito noise. I felt the ReplayTV had the best color saturation out of all the cards I have tried. Plus the depth of field seemed a little truer, other cap I have seen have no depth to them.

^^-+I4004+-^^,

Not be an ass but those caps look really bad to me, you can see tons and tons of snow in the picture. Also the sharpness could be turned down a bit to get rid of the jaggies.


Ookami

Yes I am coda304 from vcdhelp.com

Another posted sparked a new interest in my ASUS GE Force Deluxe…I am going to do some more testing with MJPEG and the custom Sync Virtualdub. This card so far has given me acceptable sync…the audio will drift off but then will be synced in a few minutes when using VDub.

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

>Not be an ass but those caps look really bad to me, you can see tons and tons of snow in the picture. Also the sharpness could be turned down a bit to get rid of the jaggies.

yes,there's noise there (as with any analog capture),but it's still much sharper image...(and there are decent denoisers too)
(btw.there was some real snow there...hehehe)

also one note;you doing it like this:
mpeg2->(transcoded to)->mpeg2....
thsi is not quite the winning combination for all that i care,but if it's ok with you,it's fine...
(i have also noted that you said aver-tv bt8x8 card had the best image but sync problems...regarding the capturing hardware...i believe you're right there...)

"jaggies"?you mean interlaced combing?
or overall too much sharpness?
heck man,there cannot be too much sharpnes for me....hehe

[bobspliff]

Update:

VirtualVCR captures perfectly from digital TV but as soon as I try and capture from a VHS source I drop frames - unless the video is really top quality. I've tried two VCR's and this is the case with both. This basically means that my card (AIW9000pro) is absolutely useless for what I bought it for in the first place - backing up my VHS collection. Great. I might as well throw it away. I would advise against anyone getting an ATI card.

Bob (disgruntled).