DVD Re-Encoders...what we want

[Blackout]

hi,

dvd re-encoding software programmers (Pinnacle ICopy, dvd2one, dvd95Copy, etc)...what we want is to be able to use CCE for the encoding, not your own encoder that youve just recently coded and tacked on. There are high-quality encoders already out there that have had long lives being honed and tweaked that look much better, TMPGEnc, or Mainconcept, or CCE for example. Its "generally accepted" that CCE is the best. Most of us are not going to use any program that creates sub-standard quality when compared to CCE. I dont know why youre all trying now to compete with it. Why not just allow us to steer your program to our CCE.exe and you feed it the variables to encode correctly? Then we would have the best of both worlds, your simplification of the process and keeping of the menus and the best re-encoding quality available. I just want all the work i have to do to completely pull apart and re-assemble a DVD, simplified, and surely this is the main reason for your programs. You should concentrate on just making sure the IFOs arent broken or incorrect!!

In my opinion the first re-encoding program to do this will win the race to a successful program, hands down.

Blackout

[idbirch2]

I think the reason no such program exists is because Instant Copy, DVD2One etc are all geared towards making DVD to DVD-R a quick and painless task for those who either don't understand or who can't be bothered to understand how to rip a DVD properly.

Instant Copy, DVD2One and DVD9-DVD5 all rely on analysis of a very small percentage of the video then basing the encoder settings on this. CCE, TMPGEnc etc all depend on doing a full pass of the movie to gain enough info to make a half-decent result.

If these 'quick and easy' programs adopted the use of CCE they would lose their 1 major selling point (and I still don't see why people see this as such a great thing) "Buy/download me cos I can convert your 9GB DVD into a 4.38GB (if your lucky) in 10 minutes"

Yeah great, your DVD has been ripped, de-muxed, down-sampled and re-authored in less time than it takes to actually watch the film but if you ever actually watch it you're left with something slightly better than a VCD in terms of quality.

The other major selling points of these packages is also price - CCE aint exactly cheap and companies like Pinnacle are not going to just assume customers will have a cracked copy of this type of program.

Hey, if such a program ever comes out I'll be at the front of the queue but I wouldn't hold my breath.....

[Blackout]

hi idbirch2, i agree with your response.

:)

blackout.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by idbirch2
Yeah great, your DVD has been ripped, de-muxed, down-sampled and re-authored in less time than it takes to actually watch the film but if you ever actually watch it you're left with something slightly better than a VCD in terms of quality.
IC can produce very high quality and at levels above 80% you'll find it hard to tell them apart during normal playback. Have you seen the comparison from Demi9OD and thats at 75% :)

http://www.striker2000.com/pics.zip

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49044&perpage=&pagenumber=1


p.s. you are 2nd in that queue, cos I was 1st ages ago when I pleaded for someone to use CCE as the encoder engine :D, but IC will do for now

[JonRead]

idbirch2, whoooa there a minute. Just slightly better then VCD ? Are you kidding me ?? The quality is great. Have you seen a movie only copy done via DVD2One ? Are you trying to tell me all that crap of ripping it and muxing, yadda yadda yadda, is worth it when you compare the CCE and DVD2One final copy of a movie ? I own both CCE and DVD2One and I have done many DVDs the hard way. What we are seeing is much like the old days of HTML writers VS the Dreamweaver WYSIWYG brigade. The "I do it the hard way so my way is the best way" situation. You can travel 100 miles by walking, but that doesn't mean it is the best way when you have a car to choose from too.

CCE is very good, I admit, but IF you are doing a DVD movie only copy then DVD2One is amazing quality and far surpases SVCD let alone VCD. Also the convenience of getting a whole DVD9 to DVD5 is immense. Just because you don't want to see a "sub standard" version doesn't mean the rest of us don't. We don't all have plasma screens or DTS setups. You don't have to have these items to own a DVD player. I own a bog standard 21inch 4:3 TV like thousands and millions of people. Most will find it hard to tell the difference between a 7gb DVD9 and a 4.3gb DVD5 on such a setup. So each to their own. There is a big market for IC7, DVD95Copy, DVD2One, DVD Shrink, and the such like. Don't look down on them as being the lowest common denominator, they are very much a useful evolution.

You are of course entitled to your opinion too, but I see so many people bashing "one button software" that it annoys me, simple doesn't mean crap.

[coona]

Hi guys and girls,

there is one thing you probably overlooked. CCE is encoder but DVD2ONE and all other programs are transcoders. That means that they only compress the original frame stucture but encoders (like CCE) redo the whole frame structure (I,P,B frames). That is why DVD2ONE cannot use *.m2v source from CCE. The navigation structure will be lost. This process can be automated (like DoItFast4U does) but it can´t be completed in 10 minutes :( :(

I also don´t like this hard way of backuping DVD, but if I want to keep menus and all extras and if I want the quality of CCE I have to choose this way.

[MackemX]

so is IC a trancoder cos if it is it does a very good job?

if it is why is it virtually the same level of quality at 80%+ as I have seen in my own examples and Demi9OD's?

[coona]

I didn´t want to start an argue ;)

I didn´t try IC so I can´t judge this program. I have red the thread "dvd2one vs InstantCopy vs dvd95copy Quality" and this is really interesting. I appreciate work of all people who made those test and post their results :)

I tried dvd2one and the results were too bad for me (of course this my own opinion). As Mpucoder wrote - the best tool and best method always depend on the source.

[idbirch2]

@MisterX

I must admit I've not tried DVD2One/IC on "normal" length movies (1.5-2hrs). I've only tried them on episode DVDs and these contain 6 half-hour episodes + menus therefore the quality left alot to be desired - lots of ugly block noise.

The only reason I tried these programs on such DVDs is because multi-episode, multi-PGC movies are a pain in the ass so I thought I'd see if this was easier. It was much easier, but the quality was poor. Even with CCE the quality was not amazing but still alot better and no block-noise.

With movies that are "normal" length I use the full copy method because if a movie is only 1 PGC + menus its incredibly easy to re-author properly - 30 mins reading the guides on Doom9 and you know enough to back up 8/10 movies using CCe/Maestro.

Anyways, as JonRead said, each to his own.

[MackemX]

I agree on the single PGC's part as it is quite easy

but what puzzles me is that CCE users do it for quality, so why bother with all the time/effort squashing 6 1/2 hour espisodes onto 1 DVD when it would use less time/effort and result in little if any at all quality loss by simple splitting it?

as I've quoted before

let's just say that CCE is the MAN UTD (currently one of the best) tool, IC is LIVERPOOL (the best on some occasions and can match MAN UTD) and the rest are mid table teams :D

try IC on your next movie and you may just be surprised :D

[idbirch2]

Can you split episodic DVDs? Will DVDXCopy do this? I just assumed the complicated structure of episode DVDs meant splitting would be very difficult.

This would definitely be worth looking into if its possible.....

Cheers MisterX :cool:

[MackemX]

depends on the structure

the ones were the episodes are separate Titlesets are quite easy

you just exchange the episode you don't want VOB's with a 12kb blank VOb by using the correct method and this maintains valid menu selections

when all episodes are in the same titleset I think you strip the VOB ID's out for each episode instead, but you either then have to correct the pointers to maintain valid Menu selection and I'm sure there will are another methods if this is too complicated etc

I only did the 2nd method once but it can be be done, dunno if DCDXCOPY will do it correctly

this is why I would love a tool that instead of removing a VOB ID actually inserted a 12kb blank frame instead, it would make DVD stripping so much easier

[Blackout]

Hi MisterX, splitting across two dvds is not a great option, nothing would annoy me more than laying in bed with the dvd player rolling, only to have to get up half way thru. Its an option, but not what id call a solution.

And to say the quality is 80% as good as CCE only says to me that its 20% worse...im not satisfied with it being even 1% worse.

And for me , quality is paramount over time. But its worth noting that CCE is not only the best quality but faster than almost any other convertor. :)

Blackout

[MackemX]

Originally posted by Blackout
Hi MisterX, splitting across two dvds is not a great option, nothing would annoy me more than laying in bed with the dvd player rolling, only to have to get up half way thru. Its an option, but not what id call a solution.

And to say the quality is 80% as good as CCE only says to me that its 20% worse...im not satisfied with it being even 1% worse.

And for me , quality is paramount over time. But its worth noting that CCE is not only the best quality but faster than almost any other convertor. :)

Blackout

Hi, can I ask if you have used IC cos I feel you have unfortunately mistaken my posts

firstly that 80% figure I quoted was the compression rate for both tools not a comparision of IC's quality against CCE

ie. a 5.34Gb DVD with 4.87Gb of video compressed to 3.90Gb with an audio of .47Gb making 4.37Gb

If you look at the pics IC is equal if not better than CCE :D

and secondly I mentioned only splitting episode DVD's which are normally 3-4 hours long and require more compression

now if getting up after 1.5-2 hours watching an episodic DVD is such a chore for you then fine, but you are contradicting yourself by also saying quality is paramount as compressing 4 hours onto one DVD will have a noiticable effect in quality

If this quality is acceptable then again fine, but note that this quality would probably be below what IC would be on a 1.5-2 hour movie, so again contradicting quality standards cos surely if it was that paramount then for the sake of getting up once (which you would normally do anyway within 2 hours probably for a beer or the toilet) to swap a DVD to maintain 100% quality compared to the sacrifice is worth it for the sake of an extra blank DVD and the huge saving in time/effort?

If I would ever split a normal movie DVD and the settings was gonna be below 80% for the movie and I really wanted high quality extras, I would never split the movie but I put the main menu/movie on one disc (probably with a setting of around 85%+) and the menu/extras on another to maintain such high quality. Again to me it's worth the extra blank and saving in time/effort for little if any quality loss

and finally I wouldn't call CCE is not exactly fast if you do a 2 pass and then if you add the stripping/setting up/authoring into it it's even longer. The difference between IC & CCE using a single pass from say 75% upwards is minimal and not truely worth the time/effort in any way at all for me personally

but whatever method is best for the user, he will use but CCE is no longer my method since using and mastering IC and I'm fussy about quality and have the means to view it and IC does the job just fine when used at settings of 75% (which is possible with 90% of DVD's) and above which I believe were Demi9OD's settings

p.s. I'm sure you will agree that at 80% settings and above the difference between IC & CCE during normal playback is minimal if at all noticable

[idbirch2]

@MisterX

The second method you mention would be the one I need.

I'm currently trying to rip 2 episodic DVDs - both have all episodes and parts of very complicated menus it 1 VTS - bugger!

The first one (I'm Alan Partridge) I just ran through DVD2One 1.1.1 and was pleasantly surprised. Took 50 mins to compress the 7.7GB disc down to 4.36GB and the quality if definitely watchable - I'm just burning it now to see how it looks on the TV.

Now I need to look into this VOB id stripping malarky. I use scenarist alot but have never had to do this....

[Blackout]

hi misterX,

youre right, i am a bit of a contradiction :) i just want the best quality, but on a single cd.

Pinnacle is a very reputable video company, i know their video products have a long history so i have no doubt that theyve used a tried and tested re-compressor, and i have wanted to try IC for some time, but i have read on the forums here that it is very unstable still, creating incorrect ifo's and other problems. What are the problems with it still and what version are you using? If its all settled down and stable it might be time to take the plunge....

Blackout :p

[JonRead]

The FREE item of software DVDShrink will allow you to re-athor your DVDs with OR without compression (and direct from copyright DVDs too), go here for that : http://www.dvdshrink.org (try and get version 1.03 which is just released in the last 24 hours). This software is excellent and as it is free I suggest you test it and see what you think.

DVDXCopy will split discs yes. It uses no compression and is basically a DVD9 to DVD5x2 solution. (http://www.321studios.com)

DVD2One will copy either an entire DVD or just the movie, within 30 minutes. Quality is excellent. (http://www.dvd2one.com)

DVD95Copy has lots of very useful features and does DVD9 to DVD5 with many selections. (http://www.dvd95copy.com)

Instant Copy 7 is both a encoder AND transcoder. You get the best of both worlds. I did a 8gb dvd to DVD-R and the quality was excellent. (http://www.pinnaclesys.com)

[MackemX]

my guide on all you need to know about IC and how to get excellent backups

briefly put I now use IC for my main movie with around 85%+ with menu/extras @ 100% and then the resulting files with DVD95Copy kepping the main movie @ 100% and fit the rest of the menu/extras to 4.37GB cos it's the best tool for that

http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/index.htm

best option of about for ease of use and top quality main movie. If I'm that fussed about top quality extras that I may once 1-4 times ever during the lifetime of the DVD then I will get the original out :)

[Blackout]

hi MackemX,

i have tried IC the past week and done some tests with it compared to my old "long" method of CCE...and my god..you are right...IC is bloody EXCELLENT. Its close enough to CCE quality for me...im changing to using this from now on, absolutely. :)

Thanks for really insisting that i try it...its definately a quality encode....the fact that its simple to do the same job that would take me hours to re-compile is a bonus. Speed with the 7.11 update is not to shabby either.

Im converted :)

thanks again,
Blackout

[Blackout]

I just want ppl to see my initial post here, almost 2 years ago. How on the money i was with this post. And how my request has been completely fulfilled in DVD-Rebuilder. Its almost like the maker of this program was directly influenced by my post, it is so on the money. Maybe it was just "clever minds - thinking alike". I dont know. But its no wander this program is creating such a stirr and such interest. Because its what the world has been waiting for. Its what ive been waiting for all this time. JDOBBS you are a legend! THREE CHEERS, HORAY HORAY HORAY!!!!:)

Blackout

PS your paypal payment is on its way !

[jdobbs]

Cool. :cool: