IC and WHY NOT to use the Title removal feature!

[MackemX]

this is a bit of proof as to why IC is not that good at removing Titles

I've just done a little test with Spy Kids 2 Region 1 to see how IC updates the IFO when compared to using Ifoedit and came across a few interesting things

it's all explained HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/GUIDE/titlesNONO.htm)

feedback appreciated if I've messed up in the info, cos I'm full of Flu!

hopefully this warning will be put into a sticky somewhere on this site, to stop people complaining about faulty IC's outputs :rolleyes:

[mrbass]

you don't have one title checked? Where is the main movie checked? I'll try this movie soon and let you know if I come across any problems when only the main movie is selected. Usually I always uncheck any titles that are 8KB or 16KB cuz they crap warning, intro screens, etc.

[MackemX]

whether I checked the movie is irrelevant as if I had kept Title 1 the other 43 Titles would have come out exactly the same. This was convenient as I had the DVD on my HD but even if I use other DVD's I would still get the same sort of results

my point is aimed at the Titles that you would actually remove. Title 44 is the Transmooker Trouble game accessed from the main menu so although it give the option of removing Title 44 it obviously contains more than 8kb of video data but it is classed as data that cannot be transcoded

I have now realised where this 8Kb comes from within IC for Title 44. It is the 0.18 sec in PGC 1 (I have demuxed this VOB to check what the 8kb contains and it's a 6kb .m2v file which is a blank black screen)

the original VOB is 420,170KB and the resulting is 420,162Kb which is 8KB difference :). It overlooks the rest of the file, why I'm not too sure but I think IC reckons it's menu related

IC 'butchers' IFO's when removing titles and sometimes this 'butchering' will be the main cause of people's problems

you may not come across as many problems as your player may not be as fussy with some of the IFO's that IC creates

even the example I have shown plays in PowerDVD and all the menu works as normal and when I click on any choice if it doesn't exist nothing happens, but if I burnt it and played it in a fussy player it probably won't work

do you still use IC to remove titles mrbass, even though you risk a faulty DVD?. You must have a leniant DVD player like I also have in my Dansai. My Sony seems a little more fussy but still plays the DVD's but then again I don't use IC to strip the titles anymore :)

another program I have used to remove certain Titles created an 8kb VTS_xx_1.VOB file and just changed the playback time to 0.12 secs in the IFO (think it was DVDXCopy), and this worked just fine

best thing is if I load the newly created DVD into IC then I get this message HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/GUIDE/Pics/sp2/11.png). I have previously mentioned IC cannot even reload it's own work after stripping Titles on some occasions so what chance has a fussy DVD player?. This obviously shows that it does not update IFO's correctly so maybe this is a way to check DVD compliance by checking whether IC can reload it's own work. I doubt if you remove even one Title that IC will be able to reload it work but it can when you don't remove any Titles

If it can't I recommend you don't burn as it is not 100% compliant and may cause a problem with a fussy player. The choice to risk a coaster is yours :)

If people continue to use IC to strip Titles then it's the chance you take until Pinnacle improve the way it updates the IFO's and how it remove's VOB ID's and then actually enable & supports Title removal :D

[Allistah]

MisterX...

I took your advice and tried to do Kate and Leopold the right away - with IFOEdit. I removed the intro warnings and the Miramax logo before the movie type menu plays. I did this using the blank.m2v and blank vob files method. I removed what languages I didn't want, subtitles, previews, etc. I even used that tool to disable the buttons in the menus for the things I took out. So far so good. Everthing is working perfectly as I wanted. So I make an image of it with ImgTool->burn w/DVDDecrypter. I go to play the dvd in my Xbox and it sits there and won't play when I close the drive door. If I hit the [Title] button on the remote, the menu comes up and everything from there on out works as expected. This isn't the typical Xbox problem everyone is having. I have about 30 others that I've used this media with from dvd5 discs and they all work perfectly. I'm thinking I didn't strip out the intro warnings the correct way or something. Should I have just hit the [Delete Playback] button and not tried to actually strip out the video data from the vob?

Any tips here would be appreciated.

-Allistah

[MackemX]

I think you may have stripped something out that comes up previous to the menu

what plays when you play the original

I had exactly the same problem with Monsters Inc as it 1st displays the menu language selection screen and stays there until you select a language, then it will play onto menu going through usual process etc

If I remove video or IFO info I just get a black screen and nothing else

does this DVD have something similar?

[MackemX]

Allistah, why bother going through all the fuss of disabling the buttons?

if it's stripped properly (in time you will learn how to do this) then you don't need to remove this feature and as it's your own backup you will probably know which extras you have kept anyway :)

as long as you use Ifoedit correctly you will have no trouble with menus and invalid selections as there will be none :)

good to see you are learning tho :)

also why even make an image?, do you not have Prassi or Nero cos both work just fine with files regardless of what anyone says

all extra uneccessary work I feel, but the choice is yours

[Allistah]

This is the order in which they are played from the original dvd. I cut out the first three trying to get it to go right into that intro to the main menu.

1) VIDEO_TS: FBI Warning
2) VIDEO_TS: This DVD is for private home viewing only... warning
3) VTS_03_0: Miramax Logo Clip
4) VTS_02_0: ID1, Cell1: Intro to Main Menu
5) VTS_02_0: ID1, Cell2: Main Menu Theatrical/Directors Cut Selection

If theres any other info I can give you please let me know.

[Allistah]

Oops one last thing..

I have Nero. It complains when I try to burn files and I've read a number of mixed opinions about it so thats why I stopped. I don't have Prassi. I think I'm going through all this just to learn so that I will know how to do it if I need to later on - plus its fun for me. :-)

So should I have not used the blank.m2v and blank vob to get rid of the Miramax logo and intro warnings? Should I just use the Delete Playback button and leave the video/audio in the vobs?

[MackemX]

I'm replying in the other thread Allistaha as this will just distract this thread away from my original post :)

[DVD Maniac]

Yo MisterX

Thanks for the guide - I have yet to try the single VOB fix, but I defenitely have a customer movie for this.

I have a had a real nightmare with 007 Moonraker. -

7 Titles.
Title 4 - Trailer, single vob which I do not want
Title 5 - MGM Splash
Title 7 - Very small title, single vob (1 sec)

I did all the usual prep using Ifoedit to strip unwanted audio. Beacuse Title 4 is a single vob I could not use Ifoedit. So in IC I just deselect Title 4, figuring that beacause it does not get played in the startup to the menu screen all will be OK (even if IC screws it up I will just disable the menu button).

When I play the burnt disc on my (fussy) Pioneer 880 it keeps hanging with "Title 7" on the player control screen. Wierd I thought - why is it trying to play Title 7? On checking with an Ifoedit preview it turns out that First Play PGC is Title 5, which then links to Title 7 before going to the main menu.

OK, a quick First Play PGC mod usually fixes this - just change to go straight to Main menu. STILL keeps hanging with "Title 7" on the display.

Plays on my less fussy Pioneer fine but I want it working on both for obvious reasons.

I will now try replacing Title 4 with the blank frame method you suggest. What I do not understand is why the player is hanging - Title 4 has nothing to do with the start sequence. Is it becuase the player checks to see if ALL the relevent Titles and vob's are present that the VIDEO_TS.IFO says should be there and hangs if not?

PS - Have you had a chance to check IC with the new update to see if it now properly removes Titles (the blurb with the release hints so).

Thanks for your ongoing help.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
PS - Have you had a chance to check IC with the new update to see if it now properly removes Titles (the blurb with the release hints so).

Thanks for your ongoing help.
it's the updated version I'm using :)

are you removing Title 7? as the very small VOB's are very important

[DVD Maniac]

No - I am leaving Title 7 alone. I even tried copying back the original files and replacing the ones that IC creates - still the same problem. I am thinking it must be either that the actual Title is corrupt in some way, or as I mentioned, my fussy Philips is checking to see that all Titles are there - regardless of the actual start order. I will know more when I have rerun IC with Title 4 edited with Ifoedit, fingers crossed.

I really hope my Philips is not a dud - there are lots of forum reports saying that these models have hardware bugs which cannot be corrected with a firmware flash. Lets see what happens with the new one I am doing now.

BTW - I have been saerching in vain to find out how the play order of Titles works. I know the First Play PGC instruction, but what happens after that? In my example, how does the link from Title 5 > Title 7 > Main Menu achieved? (I assume in the VIDEO_TS.IFO but where?)

[mrbass]

Originally posted by MisterX
IC 'butchers' IFO's when removing titles and sometimes this 'butchering' will be the main cause of people's problems


I knight MisterX as Bill the Butcher. Well all know MisterX was originally from London but migrated to New York in 1863.

Like I said before. I have 11 DVD+RW and 200 DVD-R. I haven't burnt one dvd-r (movies, xbox is different story) till I figure out what's the best method for backing up dvds. I'm still playing and you guys are my rich guinea pigs.:sly:

edited: for bad taste

[MackemX]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
last two posts of yours

why are you changing the original DVD structure by editing the first play?. now you are overwriting the IFO/BUP's IC created so basically your DVD will now be a nightmare for a fussy player. You are making it hard for yourself

I notice you still used IC to remove a Title

what VOB is this Title 4 contained in and can you not just replace it with the blank before using IC if is is in a VTS_0x_1.VOB

If you left all Titles intact and ran it thru IC it will work in your standalone as long as you have not modified it in anyway

if you do modify the original you must be very careful as to how you modify it especially if you have a fussy player

the only thing I haven't posted is how to replace a Menu VOB with a 12kb one and still maintain the structure but I will soon solve this with a few tries, but 1st I need a DVD that has this sort of VOB

I wish I could be there to show you exactly how I do it succesfully everytime but I can't :(, so the best I can do is offer advice but when you start doing other things that don't need doing then you need to make sure what you do is not upsetting the DVD compliancy

I have manually edited IFO's etc in the past to fix errors and mistakes, that's how I learnt all about DVD's structure but now if if the job is done properly in the 1st place you don't have to pick up the broken pieces later on

(mrbass I'll do you a good deal on some bacon n sausages :D)

[DVD Maniac]

Having now replaced Title 4 with a sinlge frame as per your instructions the disc now starts up fine on my fussy Philips. That proves that the Player is checking for consistency in each and every Title/vob and associated .ifo file regardless of startup order and that IC screws up if you use it to strip Titles. I never realised that certain players were this padantic about the DVD structure, all my others work fine - there you go.

Message to all owners of fussy players -

DO NOT remove titles with IC and use MisterX's approach with Ifoedit / single frame edit for single vob titles otherwise its coaster time guarenteed. Oh, and the latest release of IC does not appear to have fixed the problem based on the results of my last two projects.

Thanks to MisterX for his ongoing support on this topic.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
Thanks to MisterX for his ongoing support on this topic.
another satisfied customer :D

glad to see it worked and now you should now get better results in the future, any probs just ask

[fusion007]

"best thing is if I load the newly created DVD into IC then I get this message HERE. I have previously mentioned IC cannot even reload it's own work after stripping Titles on some occasions so what chance has a fussy DVD player?"


.mmmmm.i had the same error and found that when i got rid of a title(video)you must also deselect audio and subs for that particular title it doesnt like you leaving bits behind i found loading the video back into ic works every time for me and have had not one playback problem with my cyberhome standalone whether i use use the above method or not,but having said that im just getting to grips with your guide ie the remove multipul vob ids and when i fully understand it i will use this method cos it seems a "better" more reliable way.

[fusion007]

i really need help, i tried using your guide and i found it impossible,basically i dont fully understand the complete dvd structure(im learning though)so if i get afew variables it throws me off,now ive no doubt that the guide is fine so i opened the guide in a seperate window to compare it to a file i opened with ifoedit(independence day special edition r2)it looked ok till i scrolled down(i have opened the vts_01_0.ifo)pgc-1 it has 57 programs and 79 cells using about 20 odd vob ids so then that was it i spat the dummy out i didnt have a clue what to do i spent half hour looking at different things and i still couldnt figure out what the #### i was doing.i know all movies are different but it didnt look anything like your guide the main movie was at the top of pgc-1 2hrs 27 mins then there were just tons of bits and bobs all the way down then pgc-2 was the same(nearly) i know the film has lots of extras but jeez!!!:confused:

[DVD Maniac]

DON'T PANIC!!!!

Lots of DVD Structures are like this. Here is what I do to tackle these complex structures -

1. Write down all the VTS Title numbers, then run them through your PC Player to see what they start up like, In most cases, each Title will be a specific item on the DVD menu (unless they have lots of PGC's and vob's which makes this step less useful)

2. For the complex Titles with multiple PGC's / vob's you need to demux each vob so you can see what each one contains/ Vobedit is the best tool for this - load up the Title in question and Demux by vob (if its got multiple files VTS xx_1, VTS xx_2 etc then check the demux Title set check box)

3. Now run the vob's through your PC player. Ignore the ones that are obviously part of the main movie PGC. If a vob is small, load it up as multiples so it will flash them up one after the other so you can see what they are. Write down what each one does.

4. Now play your movie using your PC player and match up your vob's to the links on your Movies menu system

5. Now you know what you want to keep and what to ditch. Follow MisterX's guide for Titles with multiple or single vob's as appropriate.


Hope that helps.

[MackemX]

u can also use the preview button after highlighting a line in Ifo edit before demuxing

or just double click the line to open another preview window

tells u in the guide

http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/GUIDE/ifoedit4.htm

the ones u cant identify were its just a black screen or failed to render just demux them then drag and drop them into PowerDVD and use repeat to get them to flash up

normally if u cant preview it in ifoedit u need to leave it intact

but just check how long that ebtry actually plays for as it may be a static image so u wont see it in the preview but it may playback for 8secs for example as its a repeating image

u will learn very easily and build on this and soon u will strip a DVD with your eyes shut, it's just the beginning thats confusing :)

[MackemX]

this is for the attention of those who still use Instantcopy to remove titles as it plays OK on their standalones

what if your player dies or you decide to upgrade

you then buy your new funky player and realisee all your backups don't play on it due to the 'BUTCHERING' that InstantCopy does to the DVD

will you enjoy backing up your collection again my friends ? :D