Idiot's Rule of Thumb Size Guide for IC7

[Arianos]

Idiot's rule of thumb for getting awfully close to the 4.31GB limit.
Works-tested with the new updated IC7 and when you delete unwanted Audio & Sub Streams.
6 DVDs tested. (so far)

1. Uncheck all the streams you don't want.
2. Add the MBs of the deleted streams to 4.31 GB
3. Subtract 30-40 MBs to be sure. You can be the judge of whether to do that step.

Don't start flaming me or be too picky on the resulting size, ok??.
I did the math roughly not really trying to keep a log, just fooling around, and the results were:

Swept Away (Madonna) R1 - 4.29 GB (4,613,386,240 bytes)
STNG Season 6 Disc 1 R2 - 4.23 GB (4,549,320,704 bytes)
STNG Season 6 Disc 2 R2 - 4.28 GB (4,606,230,528 bytes)
Babylon 5 Season 1 disc 5 R2 - 5 4.30 GB (4,619,812,864 bytes)
M*A*S*H Season 1, Disc 1 R1 4.21 GB (4,531,335,168 bytes)

Ali G - In da House R2 - 4.09 GB (4,393,480,192 bytes)
(On that I just slided the slider at 4.55 GB. Only English Audio and subs. I know I should be bolder...)

The results are far from perfect but they sure beat:
1. Sizes of 3.7 - 3.8GB
2. Redoing the project because of exceeding the limit
3. Brain-Cell Damage caused by endless calculations or banging head on wall :)

Have Fun!

[mrbass]

freak yeah...gonna try this out....if this works it'll be great. I've been setting 4.6GB.

you say:
1. Uncheck all the streams you don't want.
2. Add the MBs of the deleted streams to 4.31 GB
3. Subtract 30-40 MBs to be sure. You can be the judge of whether to do that step.

how about this instead:
1. Uncheck all the streams you don't want.
2. Add the MBs of the deleted streams to 4.32GB
3. Done.

In all your results the highest you hit was 4.30GB. Still had 60-70MB free.

[neo_sapien]

Why, that's so crazy that it just might work!

[ssdvdman]

After I did all this and set the slider to 4.31, my ending .iso was only 3.91gb (4,203,000). How do you get IC7 to create a maximum sized iso file?

[Arianos]

@ mrbass:
I aggree, though I still am over-cautious because of IC7's unpredictability. On my next attempts, I'll try it.
@ neo_sapien:
I aggree :) :) :) After trying the rational solutions, I thought I'd try the wacky ones :)
@ ssdvdman:
Set the slider @ 4.31 + MBs of deleted streams, hit F5, hit start.

Of course all these could be a huge coincidence and nothing more. But I've seen crazier happen.

[MackemX]

sorry to be a party pooper :(

but when you keep all the audio/subs what do you add then? :D

you still get a small filesize when you keep all the audio/subs

If this was the cause of the bug would your own results not be within a certain range and not 4.21Gb and 4.30GB which is upto 100MB difference

I have previously tested the differences in resulting filesizes when removing audio/subs and came to the conclusion it doesn't affect it

the differences in the resulting filesizes with and without audio/subs selected were less than 0.5% when compared against each other when using the same DVD's

what I do see is that IC cannot identify the audio tracks correctly, mostly the extras as sometimes it does not automatically select them or include the size of it or says it a different bit rate. I would like to know why

here are 2 examples in the thread I have just posted HERE (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48918)

[Arianos]

but when you keep all the audio/subs what do you add then?
Ahh Grasshopper, if we knew that, we would have Nirvana!!!! :) :)
Seriously now MisterX, I respect the time and effort you spend on achieving the perfect IC7 backup.In fact, I hoped that my posting would "intrigue" you to do some research based on the stripping - adding area.

As I said, I was just fooling around, doing backups during the weekend and I just did the math in my head (give or take a few MBs) hence (probably)the 100MBs difference. When I saw a pattern forming, I thought I'd mention it to the forum. I don't try to force (or form) any new theory here. As I said, for me 4.21 or (better) 4.30 is much MUCH prefferable than 3.8 - 3.9.

On a more sober tone now, this "thing" seems to work only if you strip some audio streams. I just tried it on "Moonlight Mile" R1, kept 3 audio streams (all), only left out Spanish subs, added the audio streams MBs on top ( 4,32 + 77 = 5.09 ) and ended up with 4.41GBs (4,744,597.857 bytes) :( :( :(

BTW, Moonlight Mile has an option to register the DVD online, so you can replace it in case of damage. Neat!
Except I don't think they include Europe (It's R1) :(. So I HAVE to backup :)

[mrbass]

I did matrix took out two 190MB audios (380MB) 4.37GB +.38GB = 4.75. I set it to 4.73 and it came out to 4.32GB. Dang it I probably would've got 4.34GB if I set it to 4.75.

@MisterX if you don't strip anything then I'll suggest going with 4.6 or 4.65GB like you suggested. I know sometimes it still off. I'll try it on the matrix. Keep all extras, the whole enchilada and oversize it two 4.75GB and see what I get.

[MackemX]

you may just be right in a way Arianos and I am intrigued as I wish someone could isolate the filesize problem, but as of now using my 7-8% theory with a little bit fine adjustments works the best for me (just done BOB DVD6 and had 2MB to spare after 1st run!)

the best way to try fully test this theory would be to use a DVD with at least 2 large audios from say 6.1/DTS/5.1 audio and try it twice, once removing one audio and adding the size of that audio and the other with another audio removed

a DTS or 6.1 audio is massive on a long movie sometimes 700MB plus so I reckon you will end up having a predicted filesize of 5.0Gb, so I'm not too sure this would work

In fact I have Blade 2 here and that 6.1, so if I only kept the 5.1 and removed the 6.1 and directors totalling about 1GB would I use a setting of 5.31Gb?

I'm totally confused here and think I've misunderstood something somewhere :confused:

[dvdRENEGADE]

Originally posted by Arianos
Idiot's rule of thumb for getting awfully close to the 4.31GB limit.
Works-tested with the new updated IC7 and when you delete unwanted Audio & Sub Streams.

What are your registry settings? I need to know these before I can attempt any experiments with your method. I have my save quality set to 0 and comparing your method with past data from my backups, you must not have yours set to 0.
Thanks,
dvdRENEGADE

[mrbass]

I have my registry settings at least for the dvdmaxrel and dvdsavequality set to the defaults. I tried 0, etc. but that didn't seem to work for me.

[neo_sapien]

You NEED to set the SaveQuality thing to 7 to get this to work and give you a nicely sized result.

I did K19: The Widowmaker with SaveQuality at 0 and it came out at 4.6 GB. I set SaveQuality to 7 and it came out at 4.34 GB.

Fantastic rule of thumb! You're a genius! You're a terrific person, and I want to have your manbabies!

[mrbass]

hmmm based on that info...let's start experiment keeping the slider at 4.32GB and set Save Quality to 15 and see what happens.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by MisterX
a DTS or 6.1 audio is massive on a long movie sometimes 700MB plus so I reckon you will end up having a predicted filesize of 5.0Gb, so I'm not too sure this would work

In fact I have Blade 2 here and thats 6.1, so if I only kept the 5.1 and removed the 6.1 and directors etc totalling about 1GB would I use a setting of 5.31Gb?

I'm totally confused here and think I've misunderstood something somewhere :confused:

any suggestions from anyone?, cos I'm still confused but as of yet Arianos has not replied so maybe someone else can point me in the right direction regarding Blade II

these are the audio sizes for 6 audio streams in Blade II according to IC

ac3 5.1 366MB
dts 4.1 615MB
ac3 ste 160MB
ac3 ste 160MB
ac3 ste 160MB
ac3 5.1 313MB

total audio 1.73GB so say I keep 366MB ac3 5.1 stream do I add total of the audio removed which is 1.37Gb to 4.32 and set it to 5.69Gb?

you can see how I'm confused to this theory by Arianos if I am understanding his theory correctly

It would be nice to see the predicted movie only filesize when fitting it all into 4.32Gb and the amount of audio people are removing

then take this movie size and see what percantage of this the audio removed equates too

I've a funny feeling that people getting good results using this sound removal theory will find that it will be between 7-9% which is IC's average margin of error :)

[jaagee]

Originally posted by MisterX
any suggestions from anyone?, cos I'm still confused but as of yet Arianos has not replied so maybe someone else can point me in the right direction regarding Blade II

these are the audio sizes for 6 audio streams in Blade II according to IC

ac3 5.1 366MB
dts 4.1 615MB
ac3 ste 160MB
ac3 ste 160MB
ac3 ste 160MB
ac3 5.1 313MB

total audio 1.73GB so say I keep 366MB ac3 5.1 stream do I add total of the audio removed which is 1.37Gb to 4.32 and set it to 5.69Gb?



YES! :D That is exactly what I do and it has ALWAYS worked for me. (See my thread from a few days back! :)

[mrbass]

Ok I'm trying it out on boiler room. I think there's an easier way so we don't have to add up each audio.

Here's what I do with Boiler Room
Set the main movie to 100% on the slider. Write down the size 5.86GB. I uncheck the 3 other audio I don't wish to keep and it becomes 5.15GB

5.86GB - 5.15GB = .71GB
4.37GB + .71GB = 5.08GB

I simply reduced the menu (menu is 132MB total which was at 100%) down to 39% which brings main slider down to 5.08GB. Make sense. I'll tell you the results in 15 or so mins. I have my savequality at 15 so if this doesn't work I'll set it back to default of 6 and test again.

edit: ok it came out to 5.10GB....going to put savequality to 6 and try again

[MackemX]

Originally posted by jaagee
YES! :D That is exactly what I do and it has ALWAYS worked for me. (See my thread from a few days back! :)

so you would set the slider bar to 5.69??

well sorry but I don't believe the audio removal and adding theory works

BLADE II Disc one

Menu - 255MB
Title 1 - 250KB video, no audio
Title 2 - 16.9MB video, 6MB audio
Title 3 - 11MB video, audio is there but no size (bug in IC)
Title 4 - 4.88Gb video, 1.78Gb audio

total size of Titles and menu 6.94GB, unwanted audio is 1.37Gb so the max I can set to is 5.57 and that's at 100% so IC would just copy it across, so how can this theory work?

If I do it another way which I feel is more accurate I would set everything to 100% apart from title 4 and keep just the 5.1 audio to make make a filesize of 4.37GB IC is suggesting that the final video size will be 3.68Gb, so to correct this I would add 8% to this figure making 3.95Gb or a predicted size of 4.64Gb which is more realistic in my eyes and has given very good results on DVD's I have used

[mrbass]

Originally posted by MisterX

total size of Titles and menu 6.94GB, unwanted audio is 1.37Gb so the max I can set to is 5.57 and that's at 100% so IC would just copy it across, so how can this theory work?


add 4.37GB + 1.37GB = 5.74GB...set it to that an let us know.

[jaagee]

Originally posted by MisterX
so you would set the slider bar to 5.69??

well sorry but I don't believe the audio removal and adding theory works

BLADE II Disc one

Menu - 255MB
Title 1 - 250KB video, no audio
Title 2 - 16.9MB video, 6MB audio
Title 3 - 11MB video, audio is there but no size (bug in IC)
Title 4 - 4.88Gb video, 1.78Gb audio

total size of Titles and menu 6.94GB, unwanted audio is 1.37Gb so the max I can set to is 5.57 and that's at 100% so IC would just copy it across, so how can this theory work?

If I do it another way which I feel is more accurate I would set everything to 100% apart from title 4 and keep just the 5.1 audio to make make a filesize of 4.37GB IC is suggesting that the final video size will be 3.68Gb, so to correct this I would add 8% to this figure making 3.95Gb or a predicted size of 4.64Gb which is more realistic in my eyes and has given very good results on DVD's I have used

What I am saying is that the total amount of space that is obtained by removing the unwanted audio streams that IC had already configured into the total data amount that could be written to a DVD+-R safely, can be added directly back to the (Main Title) to increase the quality of the (Main Title)! :)

[mrbass]

Originally posted by MisterX
I've a funny feeling that people getting good results using this sound removal theory will find that it will be between 7-9% which is IC's average margin of error :)

you know what...I think that 6% tacked on to 4.32GB = 4.57GB. That is around what I've been setting it at 4.6GB. Thus your 7-9% margin of error. So DVDSaveQuality is set to 6%. Hmm maybe the angle of the dangle, is directly proporation to the square of the hair, times the cube of the pube, times the ass of the mass.

So if we set DVDSaveQuality percent to 50%. We should set slider to 6.48GB. Hmmm ok maybe not I'm full of it today.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by mrbass
add 4.37GB + 1.37GB = 5.74GB...set it to that an let us know.

LOL :D , I would if my slider bar went to 103.48% cos the total of the stuff I'm keeping is only 5.57Gb so how can I set it to 5.74?

p.s. are u kidding again or just missed my point completely?

[MackemX]

Originally posted by jaagee
What I am saying is that the total amount of space that is obtained by removing the unwanted audio streams that IC had already configured into the total data amount that could be written to a DVD+-R safely, can be added directly back to the (Main Title) to increase the quality of the (Main Title)! :)

you must have also missed my point. How can I set it to 5.74Gb when all the sliders set to 100% only total 5.57Gb?

I cannot understand what you mean :confused:

from what you are saying there I set it to 4.37Gb with all audio selected, then ucheck the audio and add the removed audio/subs total back to the movie title but that would still give a resulting filesize of 4.37Gb!

so in my example I am obtaining 1.37Gb due to unwanted streams whic would then make my predicted size 3Gb after deslecting them, so then I add 1.37Gb back to the movie and that makes 4.37Gb!

which way do I do it then?

[mrbass]

I'm sorry you said
"total size of Titles and menu 6.94GB, unwanted audio is 1.37Gb so the max I can set to is 5.57 and that's at 100% so IC would just copy it across, so how can this theory work? "

6.94GB...man I'm one whacked out confused dude..

nevermind...I understand....good point...ok now I haven't a clue.
Set it to 4.6GB and let us know...hehe

[MackemX]

Originally posted by mrbass
you know what...I think that 6% tacked on to 4.32GB = 4.57GB. That is around what I've been setting it at 4.6GB. Thus your 7-9% margin of error. So DVDSaveQuality is set to 6%. Hmm maybe the angle of the dangle, is directly proporation to the square of the hair, times the cube of the pube, times the ass of the mass.

So if we set DVDSaveQuality percent to 50%. We should set slider to 6.48GB. Hmmm ok maybe not I'm full of it today.
yes you would have to to compensate for the 50% loss but obviously you can't due to the original size

basically if you set it DVDSave Quality to 50% and then set the movie title to 80% you would probably end up with a file that's 40% of the orginal due to 50% of the filsize being saved

:)

[Arianos]

Currently I'm backing up my STOS collection, of which, only the last DVD (40th) is DVD9, and that with English Audio only, so I didn't have any new results to post.
However, last night before I went to bed, I put two DVDs on two PCs and the results were mixed:
My InstantCopySettings are at the recommended settings (version 1.1.0.0)
On the PC that I made the 6 "original" DVDs:
Saving Sara, left out French Audio, set slider to 4.90 and got a ..
4.37 GB (4,692,905,984 bytes).
Still burnable, but awfully close for comfort, or for forming a "Theory".

Meanwhile, on the other PC, Spy Kids 2 was a failure @ 4.6 Gig :(
The reason(?): Instead of the audio MBs (2x277) I wrote down the Kbits (2x378)... I guess I was sleepwalking or something...

I'll try it again, this time with Save Quality at 7.

I don't have a DTS title currently for backup so I can test it, MisterX :( . Please don't get upset and remember this is NOT a theory but a pattern I saw, which (coincidentally) may very well be, as you say, within the 7-9% IC's average margin of error.

P.S.
Girlbabies would be equal as good
I think mrbass's theorem is more sound than mine :) :) :)

[MackemX]

and still no-one tells me what to set the data size total at :D

the figures are there so what should I set the final predicted size to if I want to keep just the 366MB audio?, or will someone finally admit this theory unfortunately does not work with every example :confused:

I'm doing tests on the savequality settings etc in the reg at the mo and getting some mixed results

[Arianos]

Things move so fast nowadays.....
Ok, let's live in our pretend world as much as we can...

Update: No matter what I did, those $%&*#! Spy Kids came out at 4.6 Gigs, destroying my pretty little "theory" :) :).
Meanwhile DVD2ONE V. 1.1.0 was out, so I stripped the two audios with ifoedit, and tried it. Crashed @ 62%.
Did the same with 8Mile, (stripped 2 audios). No problem. Size:
4.37 GB (4,700,545,024 bytes - Yikes!)
Total time: 25mins ripping, 20mins stripping, 50mins transcoding (P4@1500 all files on the same disc)
In the meantime, DVD2ONE V. 1.1.1 was out :). Started the aforementioned SpyKids2 (again...), everything OK (4.36 GB (4,690,354,176 bytes). 20mins stripping, 35 mins transcoding on a P4@1800. So, space & TIME wise, our troubles are over.
(Which means this thread is already a dinosaur...)
Quality wise:
Hmmmm....I already miss the "quality" slider of IC7 :rolleyes:. I mean it's WAY more than perfectly acceptable for TV, but faint blocks can be seen on various water scenes (SK2) on Power DVD. 8Mile is a little better, although I left DTS on..
And because i saw it on another board: Subtitles are there ;)
That's all folks
I'm off to bed.
Hope I wake up.

[MackemX]

things do move fast, in fact so fast as the speed and size issue were already over cos DVD95Copy does all that but with just a few clicks of the buttons and 1 minute of your time then u can walk away, whereas again u still gotta babysit DVD2One to get the job done

did my spy kids in 75mins I think

okay people will argue about the extra 20 mins but that may also have something to do with what was kept as I kept the lot. The processor speed may be another issue and was also doing other things at the time on the computer cos Blade 2 only took 45mins or so yesterday but granted DVD2One is still the King when it comes to processing speed

but say me & somebody else both started at 7pm on a nice summer friday night backing up the same DVD after ripping it, I'd be in the pub by 7.10pm knowing that when I come back home slozzshulled with a big fat greasy kebab, I will have a nice 4.37Gb backup waiting for me to burn

whereas the other guy using the faster engine DVD2One would not get to the pub until 7.30pm by which time I will have eyed up all the talent and finished my drink just in time for him to get me another and save myself a trip to the bar saving even more time :)

now tell me which is faster when babysitting your computer in a factor :D .If you are really pushed for time you must be doing more than 2 backups a day on average cos u can process one when u goto sleep and one when u goto work and maybe even sneak a 3rd in when u go down the pub

looks like Pinnacle better get its filesizing issue sorted, as the 2 other proggies can now concentrate on quality as they have the speed and size issue licked and if and when they do it will be bad news for Pinnacle

personally I wouldn't be bothered if it took 4 hours to process as long as I got quality nearer to the original and something around CCE quality that was fully compliant and 4.37GB in size. Now that would be one awesome program that could do that everytime

but why is it some people expect a good result in such a short time? as we all know quality takes time :D