capturing HDTV from BS-Digital

[timecop]

I'm trying to figure out how to capture mpeg2ts from a external HDTV tuner from the firewire port on it. The broadcast in question comes from jap satellite, so it doesn't sound like any of the currently available "PC capture cards" would apply in this case.
I found very little information about this, including the 4 firewire-related posts on this forum.
If this data is encrypted (?) as seems to be the general agreement, is there any effort underway to fix this problem? :D

Anyone knows more than I do about bsdigital capture directly to PC (or failed trying, I'd love to hear that too), please reply here.

[Karyudo]

I used to live in Japan, I get back now and again, and I would consider living there again for a while, so I've got a vested interest in how you make out answering this question!

There is a Korean gentleman frequenting the AVS Forum who currently captures BS-Digital HDTV. I think he's doing it with a stand-alone settop box, and FireWire to D-VHS. It sounds like he's also got a MyHD card -- or is at least very familiar with it -- so I don't know if that's fitting into his workflow or not. I'll find his name for you next time I'm at home (in other words, sometime this evening). Though I think it was Jaehong Lee, if I remember right.

I think what could maybe be done is: signal in to settop box. FireWire to D-VHS. D-VHS playback via FireWire to computer, using DVHSTool. Mess with transport streams in computer. Play via MyHD. Something like that, maybe?

BTW, I've got a MyHD card myself, for what it's worth. But no FireWire-enabled devices... if that helps you test anything, please lemme know.

Some things to consider before you knock yourself out trying to cap BS (if you haven't already):

1) I understand just about every movie shown on BS HD has non-removable (Japanese) subtitles in the picture area. Which is unlike most of the BS analog stuff I remember from 1997-2000, and which is probably more annoying than HBO-HD or Showtime-HD (which I currently cap from). Or even ABC-HD stuff, which has a subtle translucent logo in the lower-right corner.

2) The audio you cap will not be AC3 -- Japan uses AAC for its HD BS broadcasts. Although I think the picture is otherwise ATSC-compatible, and AAC can support 5.1. And I'm quite sure AAC can be converted to AC3 -- just ask Matter about that, I guess!

3) There are some issues with tape-trading between US- and Japanese-market D-VHS machines. I don't know what they all are, specifically, but there's *something* not too smooth about the process.

I hope I've provided something useful; sorry I couldn't be of more help (by living in Japan at the moment, say). I'll be sure to check back to see how you're getting on.

Karyudo

[timecop]

Originally posted by Karyudo
I think he's doing it with a stand-alone settop box, and FireWire to D-VHS. It sounds like he's also got a MyHD card -- or is at least very familiar with it --
Well, I am well aware of the DVHS way of doing this. Unless someone wants to pay me for a DVHS deck which still costs more than I would care to invest in such project, I'd rather not use it. I've talked to the author of dvd2avi about this before (many months ago when was last time I tried to get this to work, and back then his response was the only method is using DVHS...

Once the signal is in DVHS though, nothing more than a standard PC with WindowsXP and 1394 AV/C driver for digital tape (standard XP driver, if I remember correctly) is needed to copy the content from DVHS to PC in "real time". I was mainly trying to avoid the (extra price of DVHS deck) bullshit and just going with the stream directly to the PC...

Play via MyHD. Something like that, maybe?
Well, I don't really care much for playback (in realtime) (or on PC)

I understand just about every movie shown on BS HD has non-removable (Japanese) subtitles in the picture area.
The country is going backwards as far as technology is concerned, I remember when I left U.S. in 1997 or so all new TV sets required closed captions decoders installed, if Japan can't figure out closed captions for the jap subtitles, there's something wrong here.

Japan uses AAC for its HD BS broadcasts.
I know its AAC. And I've seen the analysis of it that its not so "high quality" as NHK/etc would like you to think. And yes it supports 5.1... I'd like to know if there's a method to get the actual AAC digital signal? I've got optical out on the unit and a couple soundcards that support optical/coax inputs, is there any other hardware I would need to get the aac stream? Or I guess the stream would be included in the transport stream if I ever suceed in getting it out of the firewire link.

Hell, I dont even have a HD set to view it on (or time to spend watching TV for that matter), I was strictly interested in getting better-than-composite-out captures that I currently get with my 5-something years old bs-analog decoder. If all else fails, I'll continue using the (already working) method of just capturing off S-Video port :D

I've looked around for some technical information (as you probably know, japanese love to hide anything technical), not finding much other than the fact that the encryption on the firewire bus follows some DCPA or DTLA or osmething or other method, and that supposedly "Copy Free" (which is the only content I am interested in anyway) data is allowed to freely copy, which I will find out this weekend I guess...

[Karyudo]

...a DVHS deck [...] still costs more than I would care to invest in such project...

I hear you. That's why I went Dish...

[Japan] is going backwards as far as technology is concerned, I remember when I left U.S. in 1997 or so all new TV sets required closed captions decoders installed, if Japan can't figure out closed captions for the jap subtitles, there's something wrong here.

I'm sure they are *required* to have subs in the picture area by those evil (US-based) bastards, the MPAA. Keep in mind Japan has had free, OAR, non-edited, original language, commercial-free broadcasts for a long, long time -- something the US has *never* had! They're being forced to go backwards (by an American institution) from something good the US has a ways to go to even match! So I don't think the sh!tty US system should be held up as a model for Japan in this case...

I know its AAC. And I've seen the analysis of it that its not so "high quality" as NHK/etc would like you to think.

Neither is Fox's "Digital Widscreen". Or even HBO's "True HDTV" -- they crop the sh!t out of everything, so it fills the screen for their legions of moron subscribers who no doubt prefer it that way. So NHK's "high quality" AAC isn't quite as hot as they say -- big deal. Nothing touched by a marketing department ever is! (I've seen a page showing just how not-HQ the NHK AAC sound is, and it's still pretty good).

Or I guess the stream would be included in the transport stream if I ever suceed in getting it out of the firewire link.

I'd say that's a very good guess. That's how the AC3 is "gettable" from US broadcasts. I'm sure BS digital has to use MPEG-2 transport streams, so the audio format is sort of irrelevant; it'll be multiplexed in there in the same way, regardless.

I've looked around for some technical information (as you probably know, japanese love to hide anything technical)

Actually, on the contrary, I was surprised at the technical information I could often find freely available! For example, at the electronics store, you could actually pick up product brochures for everything, and they listed all the relevant specs. Sure, they didn't include a copy of the patent, but it was still a lot better than you can get in North America, in general. Too bad it's all in Japanese...

It's also too bad there are so few people working on capping BS digital, because it all sounds possible -- just *slightly* out of reach. Even a search on AVS yields precious few threads, with very little information. Mr. Lee is the closest I've found to a full-on capper, and he's using D-VHS, and not able to copy some of his streams. Not too encouraging...

[timecop]

Since few months passed and nothing changed, let's bring it up again.
Digital capture from BS-Digital without buying a jap DVHS deck (dead on arrival technology), possible or not?

I guess to properly handle this there needs to exist a DTCP(?) enabled recorder / software for PC to communicate with the tuner via firewire. Yes, my tuner has s400 firewire ports labeled as "Mpeg2TS".

[timecop]

At the moment the only possible way is using VirtualDVHS which is part of a prerelease FireWire SDK from Apple (see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=269141),

or a forgotten Linux "hack" (see http://www.google.com/search?q=ddr1394)

or someone to port WindowsCE.NET VirtualVCR Virtual AV/C subunit driver to Win32 (im currently playing with that, though most likely doomed to failure).

I've got a slowish mac and it drops packets when capturing real HD stuff (1920x1080 @ 20-25mbps), but works wonderfully for SD (720x480 @ 4-6mbps)

I'll be testing the Linux setup this weekend to see if it works better than the Mac version...

So anyway, to answer my own question yes, its possible, yes its fairly easy, and now, does anyone want to buy my DVHS deck? :D