Turning Subtitles (On/Off) by Default Guide

[2COOL]

Turning Subtitles On by Default

A friend of mine wanted to learn about displaying subtitles by default when DVD is inserted. I initially didn’t know about going about it so we did a search and read a lot of threads and a DVD authoring book. From multiple sources, I decided to post this working method so that people who want to turn on or off their subtitles by default, can hopefully have a easier time understanding.

11/10/2004: New and improved HTML guides using PgcEdit.
Turning Subtitles ON by Default v2.0 (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/2cool/subtitles/subtitles_on_default_pgcedit.htm)
Turning Subtitles OFF by Default v2.0 (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/2cool/subtitles/subtitles_off_default_pgcedit.htm)

2/9/2003 NOTE:This guide has been updated in consideration of stripped subpictures. Thanks to jmartina for pointing this out. And also, there is a change in hex value in “Turning Subtitles Off by Default” guide. (previous value was 9f). Thanks to mpucoder for his recommendation.

2/27/2003 Update: You must also set your default subtitle language on your standalone DVD Player.

Tools used:
IfoEdit


Note: Assumption is made in this guide that VTS_01_0.IFO is your main movie’s IFO.
______________________________________________________
1. In VTS_01_0.IFO/VMG Overview/ Title Set (Movie) attributes section, we need to find out which Subtitle we want turned on.

Select the following options that describes your subpictures status.
If you did not strip any subpictures out then go to next step.
If you’ve STRIPPED any subpictures, then goto step 4.
______________________________________________________
2. Since you didn’t strip any subpictures out, all we need to know is the byte value (highlighted to the left in blue) associated with your selected SubPicture. Write your value down that’s associated with language you want to display.

C0 SubPicture 1: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x20)
C1 SubPicture 2: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x21)
C2 SubPicture 3: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x22)
C3 SubPicture 4: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x23)
C4 SubPicture 5: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x24)
C5 SubPicture 6: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x25)
C6 SubPicture 7: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x26)
C7 SubPicture 8: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x27)
C8 SubPicture 9: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x28)
C9 SubPicture 10: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x29)
CA SubPicture 11: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x2A)
CB SubPicture 12: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x2B)
CC SubPicture 13: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x2C)
CD SubPicture 14: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x2D)
CE SubPicture 15: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x2E)
CF SubPicture 16: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x2F)
D0 SubPicture 17: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x30)
D1 SubPicture 18: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x31)
D2 SubPicture 19: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x32)
D3 SubPicture 20: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x33)
D4 SubPicture 21: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x34)
D5 SubPicture 22: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x35)
D6 SubPicture 23: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x36)
D7 SubPicture 24: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x37)
D8 SubPicture 25: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x38)
D9 SubPicture 26: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x39)
DA SubPicture 27: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x3A)
DB SubPicture 28: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x3B)
DC SubPicture 29: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x3C)
DD SubPicture 30: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x3D)
DE SubPicture 31: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x3E)
DF SubPicture 32: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x3F)
______________________________________________________
3. Go to step 5.
______________________________________________________
4. If you had stripped any subpictures, all your remaining subpictures will have shifted up in order but their Ids will be kept. Disregarding your ID : 0x## , use Step 2’s values . Write your value down that’s associated with language you want to display. So, if your Subpicture 32 became Subpicture 3, then your Subpicture’s new value would be C2.
______________________________________________________
5. Go to /VTS_PGCITI/VTS_PGC_1/PGC Command Table, and select the following option below which describes your pre commands.

If you have...
...NO "Break" commands in your pre-commands, then go to next step.
...have ANY "Break" commands in your Pre-commands section, then go to step 9.
...have NO pre-commands present, then go to step 14.
______________________________________________________
6. No "Break" commands

We need to add another pre-command so right click on any pre-command line and select “Add PreCommand”. You will get a new pre command at the end containing “NOP”.
______________________________________________________
7. Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. In our example, substitute “XX” with the hex value you wrote down in step 2 or 4. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command...NOP......................................[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00]
NEW > Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: #(Off)...[51 00 00 00 XX 00 00 00]
______________________________________________________
8. Now go to step 16.
______________________________________________________
9. Break commands present

Your DVD might have one Break command but some have more. For ease of selecting the right one to work with, we’ll just do them all. So right click on your first break command line and select “Insert PreCommand” on your pop-up menu. You will get a new pre command before your Break containing a “NOP”.
______________________________________________________
10. Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. In our example, substitute “XX” with the hex value you wrote down in step 2 or 4. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command...NOP......................................[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00]
NEW > Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: #(Off)...[51 00 00 00 XX 00 00 00]
______________________________________________________
11. You may have commands before your new inserted commands that contained “Goto” statements. Pre-Commands have shifted down, 1 line after your SetSTN command, so those prior Goto commands need to be fixed. Just edit them to next hexadecimal number. Just edit the ones from your last break line or if you have just one, from pre-command #1.
______________________________________________________
12. Repeat steps 9 to 11 for all pre commands that have that “Break” in them.
______________________________________________________
13. Now go to step 16
______________________________________________________
14. No Pre Commands

There will be a line near the bottom saying “There is no PGC Command Table.” Right-click on text and select “Add PreCommand”.
______________________________________________________
15. You will have a new pre command containing a “NOP” command Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. In our example, substitute “XX” with the hex value you wrote down in step 2 or 4. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command...NOP......................................[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00]
NEW > Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: #(Off)...[51 00 00 00 XX 00 00 00]
______________________________________________________
16. OPTIONAL: If you want your subtitle permanently ON and your subpictures button on our remote disabled, just go to your /VTS_PGCITI/VTS_PGC_1/Prohibited user operations and double click in section. Check “Subpicture Stream Change” and press OK
______________________________________________________
17. Save VTS_01_0.IFO
______________________________________________________
18. Get VTS Sectors
______________________________________________________
19. Press DVDPlay to preview and test.
______________________________________________________

Turning Subtitles OFF by Default

Note: Assumption is made in this guide that VTS_01_0.IFO is your main movie’s IFO.
______________________________________________________
1. Go to /VTS_PGCITI/VTS_PGC_1/PGC Command Table, and select the following option below which describes your pre commands.

If you have NO break commands in your pre-commands then go to next step.
If you have ANY “Break” commands in your Pre-commands section, then go to step 5.
If you NO pre-commands present, then go to step 10.

Note: Using the preferred value of 0xbe will disable the subpictures completely. This is interpretted as Stream 62 off as there can never be a stream 62. It will be confusing to know that (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 30(On) should really say “Off” in the following steps. This is an error that Derrow, IFOedit’s author, needs to fix.
______________________________________________________
2. NO break commands

We need to add another pre-command so right click on any pre-command line and select “Add PreCommand”. You will get a new pre command at the end containing a command “NOP”
______________________________________________________
3. Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command...NOP............................................[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00]
NEW > Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 30(On).........[51 00 00 00 be 00 00 00]
______________________________________________________
4. Now go to step 12.
______________________________________________________
5.Break commands present

Your DVD might have one Break command but some have more. For ease of selecting the right one to work with, we’ll just do them all. So right click on your first break command line and select “Insert PreCommand” on your pop-up menu. You will get a new pre command before your Break containing a command “NOP”
______________________________________________________
6. Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command...NOP............................................[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00]
NEW > Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 30(On).........[51 00 00 00 be 00 00 00]
______________________________________________________
7. You may have commands before your new inserted commands that contained “Goto” statements. Commands shifted down 1 line after your SetSTN command so those prior Goto commands need to be fixed. Just edit them to next hexadecimal number. Just edit the ones from your last break line or if you have just one, from pre-command #1.
______________________________________________________
8. Repeat steps 5 to 7 for all pre commands that have that “Break” in them.
______________________________________________________
9. Now go to step 12.
______________________________________________________
10. No Pre Commands

There will be a line near the bottom saying “There is no PGC Command Table.” Right-click on text and select “Add PreCommand”.
______________________________________________________
11. You will have a new pre command containing a “Break” command Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command...NOP............................................[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00]
NEW > Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 30(On).........[51 00 00 00 be 00 00 00]
______________________________________________________
12. Save VTS_01_0.IFO
______________________________________________________
13. Get VTS Sectors
______________________________________________________
14. Press DVDPlay to preview and test.
______________________________________________________

[mpucoder]

Stream 31 is not "off", it is just very unlikely that it will be present. There can be as many as 32 subpicture streams, numbered from 0 to 31 (0x00 to 0x1f, or substream numbers 0x20 to 0x3f). The designation for "off" is stream 62 (ox3e, combined with the required flag to cause the new value to be stored is 0xbe).
I know IfoEdit is messed up in its interpretation, and we had a long thread about the values. Since that was awhile ago, it bears repeating.
value meaning
00-7f will do nothing, bit 7 must be set to cause any change
80-9f stream 0 to 31 selected, but off
a0-bd meaningless
be no subpicture
bf stream 0 forced, but off - ie, invalid
c0-df stream 0 to 31 selected and displayed
e0-fe meaningless
ff stream 0 forced and displayed.

[ux-3]

Sorry if I am in the wrong department but this sounds a little like what I want to do. I am reauthoring with ifo edit and do include some subtitles. Among them, I have the alien subtitles (i.e Klingon or Elvish translations, usually only a few lines in the movie).

I did some search and found out that I can not only label them with the propper language, but also with the propper extension as forced. (I think I had to right click on them or something like that to get an extended menu) Unfortunately, this did not make them play by default. I would like to have the alien subtitle come up that corresponds with the preset audio language. When I see the original, I see the klingon translation in my native language, not in english. (though my subtitles are set to off in my player) I would like to get this effect recreated. Perhaps I didn't search for the right term? Perhaps someone could help me with a link or a short explanation?

I hope I explained well enough what I am trying to do.

[jmartina]

1. In VTS_01_0.IFO/VMG Overview/ Title Set (Movie) attributes section, we need to find out which Subtitle we want turned on. All we need to know is the number (highlighted in blue) associated with your selected SubPicture. See example below. Write your number down that’s associated with language you want to display.

A little correction:

Blue number IS NOT important! Let's say that during language striping
in IFOEdit you lefted only English and Spanish Subtitles and have:

SubPicture 1: English (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x20)
SubPicture 2: Español (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x22)

Then: Pre Command (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 2(Off) [51 00 00 00 c0 00 00 00 ]
means default title is English

And: Pre Command (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 2(Off) [51 00 00 00 c1 00 00 00 ]
means default title is Spanish!

Number cX in this command does not mean Subpicture ID,
it means as follows:

c0 - first subtitle
c1 - second subtitle
c2 - third subtitle
etc....


Somebody before asked what to do if subpicture ID is 0x30, for example:

SubPicture 1: English (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x20)
SubPicture 2: Français (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x21)
SubPicture 3: Español (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x22)
SubPicture 4: Japanese (2-bit rle ) (ID:0x23)
........
SubPicture 15: Italian (2-bit rle ) (ID:0x30)


So after Striping in IFOEdit Lets say that we have:
SubPicture 1: English (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x20)
SubPicture 2: Français (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x21)
SubPicture 3: Italian (2-bit rle ) (ID:0x30)


Then to set default title to Italian you need:

Pre Command (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 2(Off) [51 00 00 00 c2 00 00 00 ]

[2COOL]

jmartina,

Thanks for pointing that out. The example I've used wasn't stripped of any subtitles and the most subtitles I've ever encountered on a DVD is 5. I didn't take into consideration that maybe all 32 subtitles would be present. I'll make the necessary changes to the guide as well as mpucoder's recommendation on using "BE" as our value for subpictures off.

EDIT: Guide in first post has been updated

[Betfair]

Thanks for that excellent guide. Just used it for starwars ep1 and works a treat. This would be a good sticky :)

[boops]

Hi all

I have succeefully authored StarWars II to play as on the original disc for zone two. I have removed all the subtitles except the english and forced "alien" subs. I folloed 2Cools method to the T for forced subs. It works on DVD play in ifoedit and on Power DVD

However, when I play the disc on my Pioneer 535, no forced subs are available and only the english ones come up when requested via the hand set.

Any help will be appreciated.

[boops]

Can anyone out there give me a method to show "alien" talk forced subs by default, even when all subtitles are 'off'.

This is really starting to bug me as I can get my movies 'spot-on' except for these darn subs that refuse to come on by default.

Come on guys -- you must have experienced this and found a solution.

Let's hear from you.

[2COOL]

@boops

Try setting your default subtitle language on your DVDplayer to "audio follow".

[boops]

Hi Cool

Tried the audio follow option
Still no forced subs.

On WinDVD and Power DVD, subs work as expected but not on standalone

[2COOL]

Can you try it on another standalone and with audio follow selected?

[boops]

Hi 2Cool

Will do and post findings asap

[boops]

Tried on Pioneer 525 and 535 models --- no forced subs.
Tried Sansui -- does not play dvd-r
Will try to access other models soon

Boops

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by 2COOL
[font=century]
C0 SubPicture 1: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x20)
C1 SubPicture 2: Language (2-bit rle ) (ID: 0x21)
__________________________________________________________________________
14. There will be a line near the bottom saying “There is no PGC Command Table.” Right-click on text and select “Add PreCommand”.
__________________________________________________________________________
15. You will have a new pre command containing a “Break” command Double left click on this new pre command line and you will be presented with your HexEdit Module window. In our example, substitute “XX” with the hex value you wrote down in step 2 or 4. Edit the hex value as follows.

OLD > Pre Command NOP [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
NEW > Pre Command (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: #(Off) [51 00 00 00 XX 00 00 00 ]
__________________________________________________________________________



Seems a bit confusig for me here. In my case of a RC-2 Buffy DVD with only english/german subs I do not have any PGC Command Table so I insert my own Pre-Command as you did in step 14. Now I want the second subtitle stream (German) to be turned on by default so I would have to add the value 'C1'. But do I really have to do it manually? I did a right-click on the newly generated emtpy command line and selected 'edit command' and in the upcoming drop-down box I selected

- (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream Nr
- Stream 1

which resulted in the following line:

[000000F4] 1. Pre Command (SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream Nr: 1(Off) [51 00 00 00 81 00 00 00]

Now when I play the movie in PowerDVD German sub is enabled by default as I planned it to be!

However,


why does the hex value read '81' instead of 'C1'?
why does the SetSTN-command read OFF instead of ON?
why do we have to enter a value manually when we can select the desired command and subtitle stream in the dropdown box?
am I confused or what?


Thanks for any info!

[2COOL]

Originally posted by Chetwood
why does the hex value read '81' instead of 'C1'?
Check mpucoder's reply 13 posts up on value definition. If you do it in the dropdown, it will selected but will be off.

why does the SetSTN-command read OFF instead of ON? I should've also put it in the "On by Default" section but read the note in "Turning Subtitles OFF by Default" Step 1.

why do we have to enter a value manually when we can select the desired command and subtitle stream in the dropdown box? Just like your first question, we need your subtitles to be selected and on.

am I confused or what? Are you still confused?

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by 2COOL
Are you still confused?

Well, I'm not digging it totally but it seemed to work ok. I just got confused cause my method of using the pulldown menu instead of manually changing the settings also came up with the same results. I guess, by turning off the primary subtitle stream PowerDVD and my standalone automatically switched to the next stream which in my case was the one I desired.

And this makes me wonder: would it make any sense to also set the default audio stream to make a more standard-compatible DVD that is likely to run in more standalones? You see, I ripped three eps from a Buffy DVD that has 4 eps, I changed the number of chapters to 3 so you can skip straight to the next ep and I changed the fuzzy green subtitles to the normal white ones. So far so good.

However, it appears to me that by making my own DVD over several steps I still may not have set all the standard 'settings' a DVD requires. I guess that both PowerDVD and my standalone did not find any command as to which audio/subtitle to display so they just picked the first ones they could find in the vob, which was english.

Maybe by also setting this with a pre-command as I did on the subtitle would result in a more standard conform DVD? OTOH I'm maybe just getting too technical...

[vikodin]

I've noticed that most shrinkwrapped DVD titles use this command in their IFOs:
(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 0 (Off) [51 00 00 00 80 00 00 00]

Is this a better way of turning subs off by default? The Stream-62 method works, but I've noticed that my Apex standalone player seems to be displaying an (invisible?) subtitle stream as a result. When I press the "Subtitle" button on my remote, the TV displays "SUBTITLE OFF." The second press displays the subtitle(s).

I've authored a disc using the "80" pre-command shown above, and it works like I want it to: first press of the "Subtitle" button on my remote brings up subtitle (only one subtitle stream on this test disc), and the second press turns it off. My question is, is there anything wrong with this method? I know Apex players aren't very picky, am I running the risk of this disc not playing on other standalones?

[nuno]

Hi !
Could someone turn place this thread as the replacement of:

"Sticky:how to change default subtitles???? ( 1 2 3 4 )"

[XCPU]

Thanks for your guide, 2cool!
I got a DVD and have no subtitle these days.
I am trying to add a new subtitle in my movie and follow your way to change my subtitle settings, but the new subtitle just can display in IFOedit's "DVD PLAY" option, if I preview it in my POWERDVD player,it gone and with nothing subtitle be choosed.

PS. I remux the main movie in IFOedit.

[2COOL]

Originally posted by XCPU
Thanks for your guide, 2cool!
I got a DVD and have no subtitle these days.
I am trying to add a new subtitle in my movie and follow your way to change my subtitle settings, but the new subtitle just can display in IFOedit's "DVD PLAY" option, if I preview it in my POWERDVD player,it gone and with nothing subtitle be choosed.

PS. I remux the main movie in IFOedit.

If I understand correctly, you have a DVD with no "existing" subtitles. I don't see how you could get subtitles in by just remuxing the m2v file. You would to use IFOedit's "Author New DVD" feature to mux in a subtitle stream. Did you say that it "can" display in IFOedit but not in PowerDVD? Hmmm...

Are you working with a movie only DVD?

[XCPU]

Forgive my POOOOOR English,2cool.....:p

My original DVD has no existing subtitle indeed and I got a subtitle for the movie, I rip to my HD and demux them into m2v and ac3 files and then I use "Author new dvd" funtion in IFOedit to remux the m2v/ac3/sup files. And then I got lots of VOB files and IFO and BUP etc.Now if I run POWERDVD and choose "play dvd from HD", it can play my new movie with subtitle, but the menu is gone.

What I want is to keep my original menu and add a new subtitle into my DVD and this new subtitle can control by remote is enought!


Forgive my POOOOOOOR English again...hope you can understand what I want.....

Thank you very much, 2COOL!

[XCPU]

Forgive my POOOOOR English,2cool.....:p

My original DVD has no existing subtitle indeed and I got a subtitle for the movie, I rip to my HD and demux them into m2v and ac3 files and then I use "Author new dvd" funtion in IFOedit to remux the m2v/ac3/sup files. And then I got lots of VOB files and IFO and BUP etc.Now if I run POWERDVD and choose "play dvd from HD", it can play my new movie with subtitle, but the menu is gone.

What I want is to keep my original menu and add a new subtitle into my DVD and this new subtitle can control by remote is enought!


Forgive my POOOOOOOR English again...hope you can understand what I want.....

Thank you very much, 2COOL!;)

[2COOL]

Originally posted by XCPU
What I want is to keep my original menu and add a new subtitle into my DVD and this new subtitle can control by remote is enought!
Taken from the first paragraph of this guide, DVD Authoring in IfoEdit (http://www.doom9.org/mpg/ifoedit-dvdauthor.htm)...

"If you're only using your favorite DVD authoring program to create 1 video movies without menus IfoEdit is perfect for you."

...IFOedit 0.95 will not let you keep the original menu and it also works on only making one Title Set, which is your movie.

You would have to go about a harder way like using Scenarist to reauthor. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here or if there is another way, as I don't use Scenarist. From what I've read, the learning curve on Scenarist is pretty steep and knowing you're still being a newbie to the scene...

[XCPU]

In fact, I am really a newbie and SCENARIST is like a huge nightmare to me. I just want to backup my DVD with my own subtitle and keep down the beautiful menu.As you know,many DVDs have lots of beautiful menu and I don't think I can make it myself. but if I add new subtitle into DVD, one way is the menu gone, the other way is my subtitle gone. I am trying to make a "perfect" DVD to me and.....my girl friend. That's all.

[komanch]

Originally posted by 2COOL
If you have...
...NO "Break" commands in your pre-commands, then go to next step.
...have ANY "Break" commands in your Pre-commands section, then go to step 9.
...have NO pre-commands present, then go to step 14.

sorry but i'm don't understand :(
what does mean "Break" commands
can you show/write me any for example?

[mpucoder]

If you had any, IfoEdit would show them. The command means the same as it does in C, that is break out of the current construct. In the case of pre commands, that means stop executing them, and start the movie.

[komanch]

This is my PGC CT:
PGC Command Table:
Number of Pre Commands: 39
Number of Post Commands: 1
Number of Cell Commands: 0
Size of Command table in bytes 327

1. Pre Command .............. If GPreg<6> == (cmp-val)<1><' then Goto line# 36
2. Pre Command .............. If GPreg<5> == (cmp-val)<1><' then Goto line# 36
3. Pre Command .............. Set GPreg<3> mov SPreg<preferred sub-picture language>
4. Pre Command .............. If GPreg<3> != (cmp-val)<25459><'cs'> then Goto line# 7
5. ...


Where is the 'Breake commands'?
Have I got any?

[mpucoder]

Originally posted by mpucoder
If you had any, IfoEdit would show them.
A Break command will show up as "Break" - can it be any simpler?

[komanch]

OK. Thank you. :)

[Tonio Roffo]

When testing this on some movie backups it works, with others I get the following error:

IfoEdit: There is something wrong! The File position does not match the offset for table ID_VTS_C_ADT

followed with more errors.

Saving the resulting .ifo cripples the playback of DVD in powerDVD, clicking a position on the blue bar doesn't skip to that position anymore. Written to DVD-RW, I get "error" on my dvd player

Any ideas here?

[maa]

Originally posted by 2COOL _____________________________________________________
15. You will have a new pre command containing a “Break” command
______________________________________________________
Hi 2COOL I just read through this and found the above.
That doesn't seem correct - to me it should say NOP :confused:

[2COOL]

@maa

You're absolutely right! Minor adjustment. I wondered how long it's been like that? Oh well...:(

... but,thanks for the spot!:D

[Canuck]

Originally posted by 2COOL
Try setting your default subtitle language on your DVDplayer to "audio follow".

What did you mean "audio follow"? Some setting in IFO?

[2COOL]

Originally posted by Canuck
What did you mean "audio follow"? Some setting in IFO? This is in your standalone DVD player's setup.

[nt_1973_au]

hey,

i just wanted to know what software do you use to turn the subtitles on/off? i've been using dvd decrypter and then dvd2one and have found that on some movies, that the subtitles(for parts where the dialogue is not english) are by default on, and on others they are off. Not really surewhy this is. maybe someone can clarify why this is?

nt.

[2COOL]

Welcome to the Forum! :D

@nt_1973_au

If you are referring to the guide, you'll be using IfoEdit. Sorry if I didn't state it clearly.

[vincent777]

I have found that setting the value of "be" works on PC players and some stand alone DVD players but I have a cyberhome player which displays the first subtitle stream if "be" is set.

I havn't had this problem with original comercial DVDs and I think it must because these DVDs use "80" instead of "be".

This might just be non-standard interpretation by one DVD player but I was wondering if anyone else has had any problems using "be".


vv

[nt_1973_au]

hey,

i have tried turning the subs on by default using the procedure described here, but have been unable to get it to work. has this procedure worked for others?

nt.

[maa]

I have a feeling that this only works if your standalone has been cionfigured to show subs automatically....

[2COOL]

Well, I do have this in the guide.

2/27/2003 Update: You must also set your default subtitle language on your standalone DVD Player.

[maa]

True - Its unfortunate though that its neccesary, as a normal menu selection will switch on the subtitles without having the player configured that way - isn't there a command that will switch them on ?

[2COOL]

@nt_1973_au

Referring to this site's page (http://www.dvd-replica.com/DVD/setstn.php?p=10), if you check Subtitle stream, select stream number, and generate the hex command, you'll still get the same values as what I have posted.

When you do the edit in IfoEdit, save, and do a DVDPlay, does it subtitle appear in your Subpicture field in your DVDPlay panel. If so, does the subtitles appear in your preview window? Trying toggling the subpictures. Do you get other subtitles?

[maa]

But in that very page you can tick "Force Subtitle Stream on" which gives a different HEX and surely is the answer instead of messing with the players bios.

[maa]

And I just did a test - it works !

Set Substream 1 and Force it to play regardless of players setup:
51 00 00 00 C1 00 00 00
(ifoedit calls this "(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 1(off)")

Set Substream (off) - doesn't play unless your player is set to automatically play substreams:
51 00 00 00 81 00 00 00
(ifoedit calls this "(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 1(off)")

In this case ifoedit is right because the stream is set and OFF
However the Force command got the same wording and is simply wrong!
Thank God for DVDReplica.com !!


@2COOL - you can change your guide now ;) :)

[2COOL]

@maa

Originally posted by maa
Set Substream 1 and Force it to play regardless of players setup:
51 00 00 00 C1 00 00 00
(ifoedit calls this "(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 1(off)")OK, I know this works if I want to turn the subtitles on and it's documented in the guide also so I don't need to change this. Also, the "off" is misleading.
Set Substream (off) - doesn't play unless your player is set to automatically play substreams:
51 00 00 00 81 00 00 00
(ifoedit calls this "(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: 1(off)")I'm hesistant on correcting the guide on two accounts.

1. Out of past experience, in at least two DVDs I tried, using "80" instead of "be" did not work. Only by using [51 00 00 00 be 00 00 00] could I have it successfully turned the subtitles, in question, off when playing in IfoEdit and any player I played my backup on.

2. mpucoder posted the info below in the 2nd post of this thread and I highly regard his recommendations. Back then when I corrected the guide, I guess one testing of "be" really worked for me instead of "8?".

Originally posted by mpucoder
Stream 31 is not "off", it is just very unlikely that it will be present. There can be as many as 32 subpicture streams, numbered from 0 to 31 (0x00 to 0x1f, or substream numbers 0x20 to 0x3f). The designation for "off" is stream 62 (ox3e, combined with the required flag to cause the new value to be stored is 0xbe).
I know IfoEdit is messed up in its interpretation, and we had a long thread about the values. Since that was awhile ago, it bears repeating.
value meaning
00-7f will do nothing, bit 7 must be set to cause any change
80-9f stream 0 to 31 selected, but off
a0-bd meaningless
be no subpicture
bf stream 0 forced, but off - ie, invalid
c0-df stream 0 to 31 selected and displayed
e0-fe meaningless
ff stream 0 forced and displayed.

[maa]

Yes I know - on checking the "Force" box on DVDReplicas auto-command-generator the command name writen below is correct (on)

Just a shame really the Derrow has the least usefull command in his dropdown menu - the one that doesn't work !

cheers

[nt_1973_au]

hey,

thanks guys. finally got it work. works well.

nt.

[dnetzero]

I am glad that things worked out for you all finally.
I just want to clarify what said above if the following makes any sense.

The instruction bit pattern for SetSTN is as following (non-register mode). You may need a hex calculator to do all this.

51 00 00 Axaaaaaa SFssssss Vxvvvvvv 00 00,
where A can be 0 or 1 (1 sets the audio stream on)
x is a don't care bit
aaaaaaa is a 6-bit audio stream (0-63, 0-based, so stream 3 is 2 here).

S can be 0 or 1 (1 sets the subpicture stream on)
F can be 0 or 1 (1 forces subpicture stream on)
ssssss is a 6-bit subpicture stream (0-31 and only 63 is valid, 0-based).

V can be 0 or 1 (1 sets the video angle on if multi-angle)
x is a don't care bit
xxxxxx is a 6-bit video angle (*note* that this is 1-based, the first video angle is 1).

The contents of SetSTN pages at DVD-Replica were verified with Sonic Solutions Scenarist and several DVD players so I am confident that the hex generator did its job. For example (from Scenarist).

5100 0083 c483 0000 (SetSTN audio=4, subpicture=5:ON, angle=3)

Hope this helps.

[2COOL]

Thanks for the technical info dnetzero! :D

[Jipman]

A big thanks to 2COOL for this excellent guide. just what I needed and a big thx for the Disabling/Bypassing Unwanted Titles guide too. Both these guides have helped me immensely. :cool:

[2COOL]

@Jipman

Thanks for the compliment and welcome to the forums! :D

[Matthew]

The discussion of hex has gone right over my head, but I did a test:
-Compiled a project in Scenarist with a pre command setting subtitles stream to 0 and On.
-Compiled a project on Scenarist using same assets but with no such pre-command. I instead set the precommand using IFOEdit 0.96's drop-down box settings.

The results were 100 percent identical when compared using a file compare app.

This begs the question, why the need for hex...

[windtrader]

OK. I have a headache and give up.

I've used this technique many to turn on and off audio streams as well as subtitles. I have just encountered closed captions that are on by default and I would like to hide them by default.

There is a regular English subtitle AND the closed caption. The English sub does not show by default but the closed caption is visible.

IFOEDIT of the VTS_01_0.IFO shows

SubPicture 1: English (2-bit rle) (ID:0x20, 0x21)

In VTSI_MAT

Number if sub-picture streams in VTSTT_VOBS 1
Sub-p_01: Sub-picture strean addtributes 1 0 101 110 0 1
sub-picture attribute details:
Language type present
Coding mode 2-bit rle
Language English
Language extension [00]
Code extension (sub-picture caption) caption/normal size char

I did not see anything in the IFOs that looked like specification of the closed caption so I am at a loss on how to switch it off.

Thanks

[Dimmer]

Originally posted by windtrader
OK. I have a headache and give up.

I've used this technique many to turn on and off audio streams as well as subtitles. I have just encountered closed captions that are on by default and I would like to hide them by default.

There is a regular English subtitle AND the closed caption. The English sub does not show by default but the closed caption is visible. Are you sure you know what Closed Captioning is? That's a totally different thing from subtitles, stored within MPEG header and transmitted to TV on line 21 of TV signal. You turn them on/off with TV remote, not DVD remote and not though IFO files. Most of North American DVDs and TV broadcasting contains CC, so you must have noticed them before. (This is purely an NTSC thing, counterpart of PAL's teletext I believe.)

[windtrader]

You turn them on/off with TV remote, not DVD remote and not though IFO files.Yes, I solved my problem when I finally discovered the closed caption option somehow got checked on in my software DVD player. Once I turned the CC option off, they do not show up anymore.

When I go the problem, I assumed since IFOs can be changed to enable/disable subtitles, I thought the same was true for CC. That was way off!

[DMagic1]

After doing this with some other movies with no problem I now get and error. I get this error after tring to add a new precommand. It happens if even if I leave it as nop. This pops up when I try to save.

**Update**
It was the dvd files that were bad.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/m/dmagic1/stuff/nosubproblem.JPG

[Holomatrix]

Hi, alot of info here. Thank you. When playing a movie like KillBill 1 the subtitle English 1 stream is activated and plays fine but when I DVDshrink it and select that sub stream it doesn't show up even though I have Pre Command...(SetSTN) Set Subpicture Stream: #(Off)...[51 00 00 00 c0 00 00 00] set, I still have to use my remote to select the sub stream. Where else can I modify or set the default sub stream? Where was the option to force them on again?
Thanks

EDIT: WWould this work better for me? Taken from dvd-replica.com.
SetSTN audio=1 (subpicture=1):on 51 00 00 80 C0 00 00 00

[Holomatrix]

This is my Pre Command but still when I put the DVD in my player, subtitle are OFF. Damn :(

SetSTN (subpicture=1):on
51 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00

[2COOL]

@Holomatrix

Check your PM.

EDIT: Just found this relevant thread (http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35692). ;)

[Holomatrix]

Thanks, I'll send you the stuff when I get home but I think the problem is probably the way I have to set my DVD player to have subtitles OFF and for some reason overrides the settings in the re-authord IFO but there must be some other command on the origianl disc that takes precidence over all and displays the subs when needed because Originals play fine. If your wondering why I have my DVD player set to Subtitles OFF is because if I don't then any re-authord DVD plays an English subtitle track if its on the DISC which ofcourse I don't want if there is no foreign language speaking. I might have to come to the conclusion that I need to re-author movies that don't have a foreign language speaking and remove all sub tracks or trancode FULL disc on movies that do.

[2COOL]

Try doing this.

In your DVD Shrink VTS_01_0.IFO, do these changes.

___________________________________
1. Open up VTS_01_0.IFO with PgcEdit.
___________________________________
2. Click on Title 1 in PGC Selection list on the left.
___________________________________
3. Double-click on Pre command 2
[51 00 00 80 00 00 00 00] 2 (SetSTN) Set Audio stream = 0
___________________________________
4. For Subpictures, select set to forced.
___________________________________
5. OK to set. You should see this now.
[51 00 00 80 BF 00 00 00] 2 (SetSTN) Set Audio stream = 0 ; Set Sub-picture stream = 63:forced
___________________________________
6. Since we set Audio, subpictures, and angles in one command, Pre Command 3 is not needed. So, right click on Pre command 3 and Delete.
___________________________________
7. Ctrl+S to save
___________________________________
8. Preview to test
___________________________________
Let me know how this works out.

Note: You can also try it out setting the Audio to none and just setting the subpictures.

EDIT:

Disregard the above. The [51 00 00 00 c0 00 00 00] should've worked. Did you try it on another standalone? I played it in IfoEdit and it shows the subpicture turned on.

[Holomatrix]

Thanks for trying but the subs are still OFF when I play the DVD. There must be something else on the original that forces/overrides the players settings other than that setting/precommand.

[2COOL]

OK. Play your DVD in IfoEdit. Look at the status panel. If it's a blank then no subpictures selected. You shouldn't see a blank since we forced the subtitle. If so, I think you may have a problem with your standalone.

[Holomatrix]

That didn't work but the other one I sent you is working in WinDVD so I know it is fine normally, just not with my DVD player. I'll just have to do FULL disk backups for movies that have subtitles.
Thanks anyway

[Stryker-1]

I used PGCedit to force a sub but it didn't work. WinDVD still showed the sub disabled. I then set the sub and checked ON. That worked. I then tried, just for shits and giggles, forcing the sub again using PGCedit and again it didn't work in WinDVD.

One other note: after setting the sub in PGCEdit and ensuring it worked in WinDVD I used Instant Copy 8.0.3.0320 to shrink "Hidalgo". Well, the sub was gone again. It appears IC8 set the sub to off again. What a PITFA.

[2COOL]

Originally posted by Stryker-1
forcing the sub again using PGCedit and again it didn't work in WinDVD. I sent a message to rolZ on this matter previously.

[Holomatrix]

PGCedit looks cool but seemed to not work for me either. Ifoedit DVDplay didn't show subs, neither did WinDVD, they play'd them as disabled. The files modified (setting default audio and Subs) manually by Ifoedit or automatically by DVDshrink do work properly with WinDVD or Ifoedit DVDplay. (To bad my DVD player needs some type of other command to force a default sub stream that's present on a FULL disk backup :) ) Oh, well I can live with doing FULL disk trancodes with subtitled movies since DVD media is so cheap nowadays.

[r0lZ]

There is a bug in the "forced subtitle" option in PgcEdit v0.3.3. This will be fixed in the next release.
Do not use this option. Setting the subtitle to stream 0 with the ON checkbox enabled should work.

If still no success, then try playing with the subtitle streams GUI in the PGC Editor. It is possible that no subpicture is assigned for the current video mode. If your video is a 16:9 aspect, this is probably the problem.
- Open the PGC Editor for your movie's PGC.
- Click on the subpicture 1 button, note the current stream numbers, and try to set all streams to 0 or 1 (or any other value that was in the original setup), and see if it is OK.

[nt_1973_au]

hey,

having trouble getting subtitles to work on "TOP SECRET". any tried burning this movie?

nt

[lamster]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
If your wondering why I have my DVD player set to Subtitles OFF is because if I don't then any re-authord DVD plays an English subtitle track if its on the DISC
Whenever I see this, I add a command to turn the subtitles off. (See my post in the Van Wilder cheat sheet (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42415&perpage=20&pagenumber=3) thread for details.)

[Holomatrix]

Thanks for the info. Can you post me a link to Mark's Tray DVD?
Thanks again

[video]

Okay that's somewhat straightforward, but what if i have made subtitles for 4:3 and 16:9 displays for 3 different languages, so there's 6 subtitle streams. how can i turn one set on by default? the stream number is dependent on the player's display setup, ie: 4:3 or 16:9 display rendering...
Any idea?

[mpucoder]

You don't use the stream number in the command, you use the track number, which is the same for all display modes. Scenarist started this confusion by overusing the word "stream". Look in VTSI_MAT for the subpicture (and audio) track languages and extensions. If the one you want is first, use 1 in the command, etc. The player will then use the table at the start of the PGC to select the stream number.

[r0lZ]

Interesting, mpucoder!

So, the logical 'thing' that is defined in the VTSI_MAT should be called a track? And the track will reference a specific stream in the VOB, through the stream status in the PGC?
If it's the case, SetSTN do not set the stream, but the track, SPRM 1 (ASTN) is the audio track number, SPRM 2 (SPSTN) is the subpic track number?
Of course, it is best to use different names for different things, but why is the audio track acronym called ASTN and the subpic SPSTN?

[mpucoder]

Because everyone calls everything a stream. I am going against the establishment when I say track, but to me it is a more logical name for it. The specs distinguish them by calling the number used in SetSTN as "audio/subpicture stream" and the mpeg stream or substream number as "decoding stream number". Since mpeg pre-dates DVD it seems to me that the responsibility for choosing better terms fell on the DVD spec designers, and they failed.

But, call it a stream if you want, just make sure you say which kind.

[rapscallion]

Ok, I'v read through the guides and it does seem like a pretty complex/tedious process just to turn subs on or off. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just run it through Shrink ( to turn off) w/the subs deleted ?? No video processing involved and pretty quick compared to the Pgcedit/ifoedit methods

[r0lZ]

In shrink, you can change the audio or subpic track only in reauthor mode, and you must regenerate the DVD. Writing 4GB or more is... tedious! And you need disc space.
IMO, adding a SetSTN command in the pre commands of a title is really easy! And you have to write the IFO file only.
A big part of the discussion here is only theoretical. You don't have to fully understand it to be able to set a default track. Just experiment a bit with the SetSTN command to learn how to use it.

[CoNS]

Ok, I'v read through the guides and it does seem like a pretty complex/tedious process just to turn subs on or off. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just run it through Shrink ( to turn off) w/the subs deleted ?? No video processing involved and pretty quick compared to the Pgcedit/ifoedit methodsWell, like most other things, this is actually very easy to do, once you know how to do it!! :D I agree that if you haven't tried PgcEdit before, it can be hard to figure out at first sight. But I can highly recommend investing some time in learning to use PgcEdit - it will open up for a lot of new possibilities for you when it comes to DVD editing.

[rapscallion]

rOIZ.....reauthor mode is NOT necessary, subs/audio streams can be deleted in full backup mode.You're right about the disc space and processing.

Cons...it may just be in the first read through that it seemed a bit overwelming. I'll give it a try.
Edit: turned subs off via Pgcedit method, and you were right. Once reading and then doing, it was no time at all. Worked like a champ.

Another question : if the original movie did not display the subs by default, why does it do so after DVD Decrypting to the hd and burning untouched ???

[deejay220989]

Need to ask a question..

My LOTR DVD plays a danish subtitle in default..

But I want it to play English subs in default..

Sould I just change the code or what?

[schumi77]

hi,
the problem with the solution provided on the first page of the topic is that it can't be done on a DVD with several episodes. If you do it, and decide to change the language you have put by default, this default value come back after each episode.

So, i search through the DVD structure and find that audio selection was save in GPRM(12) and subtitle selection in GPRM(13) ... but i suppose it can differ between DVDs.
I found those value with PGCEdit in trace mode, by looking for the "if" switch when executing SetSTN audio ....

I finally put a break point on GPRM(12) and GPRM(13) and found that those variables where initialize to "0" before the root menu. So I changed those initial value to those I needed (1 and 1) and it works like a charm n_n.


Thx for the guide which, at least, taugh me what to search.

[r0lZ]

Great finding, schumi77!
It's also exactly my method! Welcome to the PgcEdit's Power Users Club! ;)

[Kenwood]

Excellent guide !
Works like a charm.
Big thanks 2Cool!

Kenwood

[dashali]

HI 2COOL & r0lZ
I have a DVD with 3 subs: en, es, fa
I give the command "51 00 00 C2 00 00 00" to be "fa" a default sub. That worked but every time I try change sub throuth Subtitle Menu and then Play Movie, sub don't change.
In other words, this method works in remote or bottom's PowerDVD but don't work throuth Subtitle Menu. Why?

[blutach]

Probably because the pre-commands are executed again instead of a RSM.

Regards

[dashali]

Explain more. please.
I don't understand!

[blutach]

2COOL's method involves changing the title's precommands to set a preferred subtitle stream on. If these commands are executed again after you have been to the subtitle menu, then the subtitle selected from the menu will be irrelevant as the precommands will set the preferred default on again.

After going to the subtitle menu and selecting another subtitle, resume the movie by pressing the "menu" button on your remote. This will ensure the precommands are not executed again (including the additional set subtitle command).

Regards

[r0lZ]

If you are not happy with that method, you can try the Jump To PGC Upon DVD Insert method, explained by blutach in this guide (http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/Jump2PGC/Jump2PGC_guide.html). Read carefully point 9.
The drawback of that method is that it will skip everything that is played before the main menu, including the menu intro.

[dashali]

Dear Friends, I attach my DVD's IFO files.
I want 3rd sub to be default sub , in all place of DVD -Main movie, Title menu, Root menu, Sub menu, Audio menu, Chapter menu and so on.

with PgcEdit v8.6 :
At first, I add a command to "VTST 1 ,1 TTN 1 , Title 1" , 2nd line of pre commands; but every time I refer to Sub menu for changing sub (e.g. to 2nd sub) , after play movie, 3rd sub became On again.

So, I add this command to "VTSM 1 ,LU 1 , [dummy] , RootM" , 5th line of pre commands, before "LinkPGCN PGC 2"; the above problem was solved but when I refer to Title menu, Sub menu, Audio menu & Chapter menu directly by means menues of PowerDVD, sub is off. I want 3rd sub to be On in these menues.

Where add I this command: "[51 00 00 00 C2 00 00 00] <==> (SetSTN) Set Sub-picture stream = 2, on" to resolving this problem?

[blutach]

Sorry, we can not allow attachments of IFO files. Please read this sticky.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=50765

In any event, we'd need the menubuttons, too.

You might like to try r0lZ's advice posted earlier.

Regards

[meRobs]

Hope this Sticky is not too old for someone to see my question!
I have the latest version of PGCedit and have just added a subtitle stream to a movie and wished to 'force' it on in PGCedit.

Having added a Cmd at the start of the movie, I found two choices for Set STN.
The first allows the new stream to be Set, which appears as "0 on" in Trace. Then, Subtitle 01 is checked in WinDVD and the subtitle plays in my DVD player. So, all is well.

I also tried the other option: "Force Subpic 0" in the Set STN panel. This gives "63: forced" in the Cmd, "31 On" in Trace and, in WinDVD, neither 'Disabled' nor 'Suntitle 01' is checked, yet the subtitle plays!

Since the latter seems confusing, I chose the first method.

Question: is there any practical difference between "Set to" stream 0 (only one subtitle) and "Force Subpic 0" ??
Thanks

[r0lZ]

Honestly, I have never understood completely why there is this option 63 (forced) in SetSTN, as it is possible to force some or all subpics of any subpic stream anyway, and not only the first one, as "Force Subpic 0" implies.

Forced subpics are used to display subpics when something shown in the image (and not spoken) must be translated. For example, in an US movie translated to French, the French movie title can be shown using a forced subpic.

Technically, any subpic of the stream can be flagged as forced, but the flag for the particular subpic is in the subpic stream itself (in the VOB file) and therefore is not controlled by PgcEdit. (You can change the forced flags with DVDSubEdit.) Then, if the stream containing forced subpics is made current but "off" (with a SetSTN command or automatically by the player or if there is only one subpic streram in the domain), then the subpics that are flagged as forced will be shown anyway. The subpics that are not flagged as forced are shown only if the current stream has been turned "on" with SetSTN. Note that when there is only one subpic stream in the domain, it is always current, so if it contains forced subpics, there is no way to hide them. In other words, that means that the current subpic stream is never completely off: forced subpics are always on.

It is, of course, also possible to author the forced subpics in a stream containing only them. In that case, there is no need to set the forced flag, as the stream can be turned on normally.

So, IMO, there is no need for that "Force Subpic 0" command. To display the forced subpics of stream 0, it is sufficient to SetSTN subpic 0, off. The "Force Subpic 0" option is present in PgcEdit, mainly because it is documented in mpucoder's DVD Information site (see SPRM 2 here (http://www.mpucoder.com/DVD/sprm.html)), and because PgcEdit must be able to show that command in its GUI, but I have never encountered it in commercial DVDs.

If someone has more info, please let me know.

[meRobs]

Thanks heaps for the comments.
I assume then that for a single subtitle stream, turning it ON with PGCedit will always have it play in a DVD player.
In my case, there was no menu for selecting audio or subtitle streams, so, if the setting fails I have no way of correcting it!
It works in my current DVD layer.

I might have a look at DVDsubEdit.

[mpucoder]

Stream 63 is used to remember that the user has not selected any subpic stream. The intent was the remote or code in VM would be able to turn the current subpics on and off. Without stream 63 the VM would need to use a GPRM to remember that the user's last choice was "none".

[r0lZ]

Hum, in PgcEdit, stream 62 is used for that purpose. Stream 63 is labelled "force subpic 0". IIRC, I took that information from your site. Has it changed?

[mpucoder]

You're right, 63 is "forced". The player will start out set to 62 to indicate "none". VM (and possibly a remote, but I don't know of any with a button for "forced") can change the value to 63 to enable forced subpics from the first stream (it's not clear if "first stream" means lowest numerical stream number or first listed in the PGC - best to list 0 first if possible). In either case setting the "on" bit should not display the unforced subpics, and there lies the difference between explicitly setting the stream number and choosing 62 or 63.

[r0lZ]

Thanks for the explanation, mpucoder.

But I still doesn't understand. 62 means "not set", but IMO it should be "not explicitly set", as the player should decide which subpic stream to show based on the language code of the current audio track and the user preferences. Right? So what's the point in turning that "not set" stream on? If it's just to force the player to not change the stream (and keep displaying the forced subs of stream #0), then it is easier to SetSTN subpic 0, off. I am wrong?

[mpucoder]

I think you're getting menu and title domains confused. A menu PGC can have only one subpic stream (and it must contain nothing but forced subs). Which PGC that plays is determined by language preference, language unit, and possibly VM jumping. SetSTN is allowed only in VTSM and VTST domains, and affects the title's subpicture stream, not the menu.

So here's one scenario where the values save a GPRM. You have a setup menu to select audio and/or subpic language. Doing so will use SetSTN and alter the default value of 62 to a valid stream number. Now the title begins, in its pre commands it checks the SPRM values of audio and subs. If SPRM 1 is 15 it means the user made no choice for audio, so the pre commands can make a decision. Same for SPRM 2 being 62. Having a value for not set (by the user) eliminates the need for using a GPRM to remember that. The same for choosing forced only. Some movies have forced subs that are not language related, BOV's are one example. The setup menu can have choices for subs like English, Spanish, or follow the rabbit. Setting the SPRM to 63 indicates an explicit choice of forced, and the on/off feature of the remote, if present, does nothing. If instead you use stream 0/off you will get the forced subs, but if the remote has a subs on/off button it will work.

The only time a player's firmware should make a choice of audio or subpic for a title is when SPRM 1 == 15 or SPRM 2 == 62. The choices should be based on SPRM 16, 17, 18, and 19, although most players I have will choose an audio track but leave subs off. If there is no matching audio or sub stream the first one listed is supposed to be the default.
The player always chooses audio and subs for menus by deciding which language unit to use, which should be based on SPRM 0. If there is no matching language "unspecified" is the default. If there is no "unspecified" then the first LU is used. btw in the ifo the language code for menu domains audio and subs is always 0 since it can be any language.

[meRobs]

MPUcoder: since I'm not up to all the tech terms you use, please summarise for me!
Consider a Movie with only audio set on a foreign (for me) language and only one subPic stream present (English).
Is it best to set the SubPic to 0 with 'on" checked or to "Force subpic 0" on the STN panel. The former gives "0 On" in Trace and the latter gives "31 On" ??
Thanks

[mpucoder]

If you want to see the normal subpics use 0/on. Most movies will not show anything with "force subpic 0".

Stream 63 should be called simply "forced" not "force subpic 0" as we are not forcing the display of stream 0, but rather displaying only those subpics which are denoted as forced from the first track. Each subpicture within a stream can be either normal or forced, this is coded into their command structure. Forced subpictures from the selected stream are always displayed regardless of the "on/off" flag, whereas the normal subpictures in the stream will display only if the stream is "on".

"Stream" is an overused word in the specifications and in most software related to DVD. The SetSTN command actually is talking about tracks. In 16:9 movies a track can have 2 or 3 streams associated with it, which one that gets used is determined by the display mode of the player - wide, letterboxed, or pan/scan. The PGC contains a map of track to stream(s).

btw, if there are forced subpictures in a thread (video, audio, and subpictures from one angle of one story multiplexed together form a thread) every subpic stream must have matching forced subpics in them. The forced subpics do not have to have the same graphic, but they must have the same timing.

[meRobs]

Thanks.
Can I assume then that if the only subPic track is turned ON via STN and there is no audio/subpic/language menu, then the set subpic track will always be on (visible).

[r0lZ]

Having a value for not set (by the user) eliminates the need for using a GPRM to remember that. The same for choosing forced only. Some movies have forced subs that are not language related, BOV's are one example. The setup menu can have choices for subs like English, Spanish, or follow the rabbit. Setting the SPRM to 63 indicates an explicit choice of forced, and the on/off feature of the remote, if present, does nothing. If instead you use stream 0/off you will get the forced subs, but if the remote has a subs on/off button it will work.
That's what I wanted to know. Thanks!

The only time a player's firmware should make a choice of audio or subpic for a title is when SPRM 1 == 15 or SPRM 2 == 62. The choices should be based on SPRM 16, 17, 18, and 19, although most players I have will choose an audio track but leave subs off. If there is no matching audio or sub stream the first one listed is supposed to be the default.
IIRC, my old Sony player selects the audio and subpic automatically. It's why I have programmed that in the trace. But since you say that "most players I have will choose an audio track but leave subs off", maybe I will change that to leave the first subpic/off. Or I'll add an option in the trace setup to tell the trace if the player can select the subpic automatically or not.

The player always chooses audio and subs for menus by deciding which language unit to use, which should be based on SPRM 0. If there is no matching language "unspecified" is the default.
I did not know that "unspecified" is the default. I have assumed that it's always the first LU. I'll change that too. Thanks also for this!


Stream 63 should be called simply "forced" not "force subpic 0"
I'll change that too.

"Stream" is an overused word in the specifications and in most software related to DVD. The SetSTN command actually is talking about tracks.
Seems logical, yes. But where exactly should "track" be used? In the SetSTN command, and in VTSI_MAT (called Domain Stream Attributes in PgcEdit, but that should be renamed Domain Track Attributes), but not in the table of streams in the PGC, since it maps the tracks to the real streams, right?

btw, if there are forced subpictures in a thread (video, audio, and subpictures from one angle of one story multiplexed together form a thread) every subpic stream must have matching forced subpics in them. The forced subpics do not have to have the same graphic, but they must have the same timing.
I don't understand why. Only one subpic stream is active during playback (depending of the current track and the display mode), so why is it necessary to sync the forced subpics with the other streams? Anyway, that's not important for PgcEdit, but if I understand correctly, that means that it is dangerous to change the timings of forced subpics with DVDSubEdit, unless exactly the same modification is made in the other streams as well. Right? Or is it necessary only in case of multi-angle?

[r0lZ]

Thanks.
Can I assume then that if the only subPic track is turned ON via STN and there is no audio/subpic/language menu, then the set subpic track will always be on (visible).
Usually, yes, but it's not the presence of the language menu that matters. A DVD without a language menu can change the current subpic with a SetSTN command, without giving to the user a chance to decide which subpic language to display. So, you should add a SetSTN command yourself only if the original DVD does not contain already a SetSTN command, or if that command is not executed before the playback of the title, or if you want to overwrite it with your own selection. (In the latter case, you must be sure that your command is executed after the original SetSTN, and, of course, before the playback of the title begins.)

BTW, here is an example of the code I use when I re-author a DVD with several audio and subpic tracks. I assume that GPRM 15 is unused or can be used to store temporary values.
The code assumes also that the language of the first audio and subpic tracks is the default (the original language of the movie, English for example), and that the second one is a foreign language (in my example, French, my native language).

The first line selects by default the first audio track, and turns the subpics off.

Lines 2 to 6 check if the user has specified that he wants the French audio track, and if it's the case, it selects the second audio, and changes also the subpic track, but leave it off, so that only the French forced subpics are displayed, and so that the user will be able to turn on or off the French subtitles with the subtitle on/off button of the remote (unfortunately rarely present). The Goto in line 5 skips the selection of the subpic, as usually, you don't need to see the (non-forced) French subtitles if the French audio has been selected.

The last lines are executed only if the user has not specified French as his preferred audio. The current audio is therefore still the default audio track (English). The preferred subpic language is checked, and if it is French, then the corresponding subpic track is turned on.

Of course, that code must be expanded if more audio and/or subpic languages are present, but usually, when I re-author a DVD, I keep only the original language and French.

[51 00 00 80 80 00 00 00] 1 (SetSTN) Set Audio stream = 0 ; Set Sub-picture stream = 0, off
[61 00 00 0F 00 90 00 00] 2 Set gprm(15) =(mov) sprm(16:Preferred audio language)
[00 B1 00 0F 66 72 00 06] 3 if ( gprm(15) != 26226 ("fr") ) then { Goto line 6 }
[51 00 00 81 81 00 00 00] 4 (SetSTN) Set Audio stream = 1 ; Set Sub-picture stream = 1, off
[00 01 00 00 00 00 00 0A] 5 Goto line 10
[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00] 6 NOP
[61 00 00 0F 00 92 00 00] 7 Set gprm(15) =(mov) sprm(18:Preferred sub-picture language)
[00 B1 00 0F 66 72 00 0A] 8 if ( gprm(15) != 26226 ("fr") ) then { Goto line 10 }
[51 00 00 00 C1 00 00 00] 9 (SetSTN) Set Sub-picture stream = 1, on
[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00] 10 NOP

Note that currently, it's a similar logic that is used by the trace mode to select automatically the right audio and subpic tracks when they are still "not set" (values 15 and 62, respectively) when a title is played. But maybe I will remove the code that selects the subpic track, if it is confirmed that most players do not select the subpic track automatically.

[mpucoder]

The use of "track" - yes, that is where I believe it should be used and I think you're seeing what I mean by "stream" being overused, but that is the way the spec was written as well. To me (and MuxMan) a track is a collection of related streams that the player chooses from based on display mode. So anywhere that the streams are referenced as a group I call it a track. But that is not in the spec, I started using it to distinguish between a group and a single stream. I first became aware of the problem in terminology while reading the description of the table in a PGC that describes "the streams that make up the stream". Seemed like double-talk, probably due to the bad interpretation from the original Japanese, or just poor terminology to begin with (they could use a clear glossary like ISO standards all have).

I wrote that last bit while very tired. Not all forced subs need matching subpics in the other streams, just those with buttons. This is because they have timing information in the PCI for the buttons, and requiring all streams to have a subpic at that time simplifies player design. So when you play a movie like "The Matrix" without following the rabbit there are transparent subpics being displayed when the rabbit would appear. If the DVD is authored badly you could press the button at that time and it would jump to the extras (because the highlight information in the PCI is not conditional). Some time ago I wrote this (http://mpucoder.com/Muxman/mxp/bovcmd.shtml) example of how to handle BOVs.

[r0lZ]

I have tried (in PgcEdit and in the forums) to always use "VOB stream" to designate the real, physical streams, and simply "stream" to designate the tracks. But I agree that your terminology is better. I'm still not sure I will change the terminology in PgcEdit, as that will change the habits of the PgcEdit users, and I will need to modify many dialogs, and I can forget some of them.

Your explanation of the matching subpics for buttons makes sense. Thanks again! (Your example link doesn't work: ERR_CONNECTION_RESET. Site down?)

I was tired yesterday too! BTW, Happy New Year!

[mpucoder]

I just tried the link from my phone and it is working (can't tell if there are network problems from this PC as it is on the same LAN as the server) - maybe just a temporary glitch somewhere.

Yes - Happy New year everyone (prospero ano y filicidad)

[r0lZ]

I doesn't work for me. Anyway, I don't need it. I've understood your explanation.

[r0lZ]

The link works today. :-) Very cleaver use of & to test a GPRM flag!
But I wonder something. You say "If GPRM0 (in this example) is zero neither the Mov or LinkTailPGC will be performed, causing the button to be ignored." Of course, if the test is not true, the command does nothing, but it is executed anyway. In my experience, a button command (even a NOP) has always (at least with my players) an effect, and is therefore not totally inactive when it is activated with the remote, even when no jumps are executed. With most players, there is a slight pause when the user presses the button. Some players do not display the button highlight any more after having pressed it (and you must wait until the menu loops back to see the highlight again), and some players hang completely. So, IMO, that command is dangerous. But maybe the tests I did were using badly authored buttons (at least for that purpose). IIRC, they were authored as a single button set, and that can explain why the highlight was not refreshed. Any comment?

[r0lZ]

Is it best to set the SubPic to 0 with 'on" checked or to "Force subpic 0" on the STN panel. The former gives "0 On" in Trace and the latter gives "31 On" ??
Thanks
The "31 On" displayed in PgcEdit trace mode is a bug! I have just fixed it. It displays now "63: Forced".

BTW, mpucoder, in PgcEdit, the command SetSTN 63: forced generates the following hex code: "51 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00". Bit 7 of the track value (in byte 4) must be set to enable the modification of the subpic track number, but I don't know if bit 6 (the On flag) must also be set. In other words, does it make sense to SetSTN 63: forced, On, and perhaps SetSTN 63: forced, Off?

I don't remember why I have added the On bit, but there must be a reason. (For SetSTN 62: not set, the On bit is not set, and the code is therefore "51 00 00 00 BE 00 00 00".)

[meRobs]

Thanks rOlZ for fixing that.
Before downloading the newer version, I will wait until this discussion helps me decide whether I should Force my only SubPic stream rather than just Set it ON.

[r0lZ]

The new version is not available yet. I will announce it in the main PgcEdit thread when it will be ready.

You should simply use SetSTN 0, On. Forced subpics need to be specifically authored, so unless you change them with DVDSubEdit, there is no reason to use the forced mode. (Plus: forced subpics are difficult to hide. If you still want to be able to turn the subpics off with the remote, do not use forced subpics!)

[r0lZ]

But I agree that your terminology is better. I'm still not sure I will change the terminology in PgcEdit, as that will change the habits of the PgcEdit users, and I will need to modify many dialogs, and I can forget some of them.
I have changed the terminology (stream to track). That was not so difficult for me :), but the authors of the PgcEdit documentation and the translators will have much work than me. Sorry to them for that new year gift! :(

[mpucoder]

BTW, mpucoder, in PgcEdit, the command SetSTN 63: forced generates the following hex code: "51 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00". Bit 7 of the track value (in byte 4) must be set to enable the modification of the subpic track number, but I don't know if bit 6 (the On flag) must also be set. In other words, does it make sense to SetSTN 63: forced, On, and perhaps SetSTN 63: forced, Off?

Although the "on" bit for stream 63 should be ignored I don't know any reason to set it.

[r0lZ]

So, the correct command in hex is "51 00 00 00 BF 00 00 00"?