oh no pay copyright for blank media

[killingspree]

in the following article (http://www.chip.de/news_stories/news_stories_9514211.html)
[in german]
they report that all consumers have to pay a small amount of money for any blank cdr/rw or als DVD-/+r/rw to the GEMA (some kind of german RIAA i guess) any way you have to pay them with your price at the store so there will be absolutely no difference if you copy some copyrighted material (which would be illegal anyway - except fair use rights of course) or you just burn your homevideo to a DVD. its only a few cents (.17 €) but still i somehow don't like this!!!

what right do the copyright owners have to charge me for burning my videos i created with my digital camcoder? i just don't see how this can be right?!

steVe

[Infophreak]

In Denmark we pay CopyDan (would pretty much be the same as your GEMA, I'd guess) somewhere between 0.5 and 0.6 euro per CD-R medium. No wonder noone I know buys CD-R media in Denmark anymore, right?

Supposedly, the money is supposed to go the artists as compensation for the legal fair use rights people can utilize with CD music (For now. Almost all new CDs will have copy protection, and Infosoc made it illegal to circumvent "effective copy protections". Whatever that means. Think about how much of an oxymoron it is to make that illegal - it makes no sense). Such as making a copy for backup purposes or for the CD player in your car. Everyone knows that the tax is to reenumerate them for the (supposed) loss they have from illegal copying. Of course they can't say that, as it is illegal to put a tax on something that is illegal to do. I don't know anybody who believes what that they say anyway.

How CopyDan distributes that money is a complete mystery. AFAIK, they don't have to report this to the government at all... this makes the tax even more unfair (every linux distro you burn - a little money goes to their coffers as well...).

Perhaps one should buy a DVD burner and thousand or so media from Taiwan? I hear they are pretty cheap - less than 1 euro per disc if you buy 1000 discs ^_^. That should last a short while.

[Doom9]

on c't they also mentioned that Switzerland has a smilar charge.. only that it's way out of proportions (SFr 1.87 per disc which is about 1.25€). It only takes about 15 discs and you're entitled to one full pirate copy.. after all you paid for it ;)

[wmansir]

Actually we have this in the US too, but it is limited to products designed for the sole purpose of copying music, such as cassettes. That's why we pay more for Audio CDRs, as opposed for Data CDRs.

In Cananda, I believe the RIAA (or their equivilant) is trying to expand the fee to apply to any device that can store music. It already includes Data CDRs so they are looking at DVD recordables, Compact/Smartmedia Flash cards, MP3 players with built-in memory, this includes products like the iPod and Nomad, and possible bare HDs themself. With large HDs (and a fee based on capacity) these products could see large markup in retail price to cover the fee. Also, the manufacturer pays the RIAA directly and then adds the cost to the retail price, so you pay sales tax on the fee.

Here is a link (http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/CPC/archive/taxes/Canada%20Seeks%20tax%20on%20music%20storage.html) to an older story, I read an update in the last few days (where they want to double the current fees) but can't find it. The story did mention that even though the organization has collected millions of dollars, it hasn't paid a single artist any money yet. It also mentioned that a recent RIAA (or Can equiv) funded study showed that ~50% of CDRs sole are used to copy music, but that means that around half the people who pay the fee actually use the product for data and shouldn't have to pay.

Oh, wait, I found a better link (by replacing 'fee' with 'levy' in my search) http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml It wasn't bare HDs they were going after, but MicroHDs, not much difference.
Here are the proposed rates (all in Can $):

CD-(R/RW) data $.59 each
CD-(R/RW) Audio $1.23 each
DVD(-/+)(R/RW) $2.27 each
MP3 w/HD $21 per Gig
ALL Flash/MicroHD 0.8¢ per MB

The section on how to get around the levy is interesting. If you import for personal use you don't have to pay, or if the media has, or has ever had, music recorded on it, it is exempt. So by placing a crappy demo song on the Nomad it would avoid a $126 levy. They could even record the song on the Nomad and then reformat it before sale and it would be exempt.

[markrb]

You guys may hate me for this, but I don't think it's a bad idea. In fact I think done correctly it's a good idea.
If a fee like this will get the MPAA and similar type orginizations off of people's back.
With stand alone cd copiers blanks have a built in fee that goes back to the studios. I think the amount is a bit excesive, but the idea is sound.
Go after the people making money off of your material and leave the little guy alone.
I have no problem with artists and studios making money, but they need to adjust their financial model to survive. Copying of music and videos will never stop. Pandoras box has been open and no new laws will stop it. Close Kazaa and there is DC. Close DC and there is IRC.

I would actually expand these fees to include Mp3 players as well.

A small fee of $5 per player and a few cents per blank disc will hurt nobody and could stop these mad lawyers and unnecessary lawsuites.

wmansir those proposed rates are excessive and could really hurt the industry as a whole. I hope these guys come to there senses and realize this.

Mark

[Doom9]

@mark: I fear you're being a bit blue-eyed. These fees have actually existed in many countries for a long long time. In the price of every blank tape I've ever bought in my life was apart that went to copyright holders. Same goes for DAT tapes or MiniDiscs (the latter two being digital formats, allowing the feared perfect copies both RIAA and MPAA hate so much). Those fees have also been present on blank CD-Rs (the special ones called CD-R for audio, standalone audio CD recorders only accept those discs and not the cheaper version we use in our PCs). We also have those taxes on blank video tapes, so putting them on DVD-Rs was only the next logical step in this evolution. Taxes on xerox machines are also very frequent, and recent we've also had taxed on CD burners for PCs. But with decades of those taxes did that stop MPAA and RIAA of coming after Joe Average?
A good example are audio CD copy protections. For every MiniDisc I bought I paid a certain extra to be allowed to make copies of my CDs. But now with most audio CD copy protections the SCMS flag is set to no-copy, so despite me paying to compensate the content creators for the copies I make to carry around with me I'm now no longer entitled to make such copies. One would assume that since I can no longer legally make copies (DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent any copy protection scheme) I also wouldn't have to pay these fees anymore. But far from it.. as we can see the content providers are pushing to extend these fees and at the same time prevent us from making any copies by passing ridiculous laws.

And just think about the corporate environment. I have personally bought roughtly 30 PCs last year for the company I'm working for. All these devices are destined for serious work.. people downloading music or videos will get into serious trouble. Why should I have to pay a fee for every harddisk when these are never going to be used to store any copyrighted content (except corporate documents where we own the copyright, not the music or movie industry).

Sorry, but this is just another "dear customer please bend over" scheme. All the abovementioned fees didn't stop them from screwing us with DMCA and Co.

[SpEeDaMiGo]

do you people really believe, this additional (or already existing) fee goes into the pockets of the artists? gosh, i think that's just utter rubbish ... sorry. you'll just pay some copyright holders/publishers some extra bucks. of course artists are usually more than well-off, but think of the dosh publishers/copyright holders are making; usually we just don't realise it.
nevertheless, what i would really be interested in: download music/movies or whatever from the internet and pay JUST the artists their share, which is unproportionately small anyway.
@doom9: the issue about BIG charges on cdrs in switzerland (as claimed by c't) isn't true (yet). well, since anything else in switzerland is f*** expensive it wouldn't make a big difference ;-)

[Doom9]

@SpEeDaMiGo: Well.. you can buy Verbatim DVD-Rs and DVD+Rs for SFr 4 in Media Markt so reasonably priced recordable DVDs are definitely available in Switzerland (in fact I haven't seen much better prices anywhere yet). And http://www.suisa.ch/cgi-bin/engine/home/big?lang=d&id=279&flash= looks rather serious.

[NeVeRLiFt]

Originally posted by Doom9
@mark: I fear you're being a bit blue-eyed. These fees have actually existed in many countries for a long long time. In the price of every blank tape I've ever bought in my life was apart that went to copyright holders. Same goes for DAT tapes or MiniDiscs (the latter two being digital formats, allowing the feared perfect copies both RIAA and MPAA hate so much). Those fees have also been present on blank CD-Rs (the special ones called CD-R for audio, standalone audio CD recorders only accept those discs and not the cheaper version we use in our PCs). We also have those taxes on blank video tapes, so putting them on DVD-Rs was only the next logical step in this evolution. Taxes on xerox machines are also very frequent, and recent we've also had taxed on CD burners for PCs. But with decades of those taxes did that stop MPAA and RIAA of coming after Joe Average?
A good example are audio CD copy protections. For every MiniDisc I bought I paid a certain extra to be allowed to make copies of my CDs. But now with most audio CD copy protections the SCMS flag is set to no-copy, so despite me paying to compensate the content creators for the copies I make to carry around with me I'm now no longer entitled to make such copies. One would assume that since I can no longer legally make copies (DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent any copy protection scheme) I also wouldn't have to pay these fees anymore. But far from it.. as we can see the content providers are pushing to extend these fees and at the same time prevent us from making any copies by passing ridiculous laws.

And just think about the corporate environment. I have personally bought roughtly 30 PCs last year for the company I'm working for. All these devices are destined for serious work.. people downloading music or videos will get into serious trouble. Why should I have to pay a fee for every harddisk when these are never going to be used to store any copyrighted content (except corporate documents where we own the copyright, not the music or movie industry).

Sorry, but this is just another "dear customer please bend over" scheme. All the abovementioned fees didn't stop them from screwing us with DMCA and Co.


Well said Doom9.


:D

[Ridgeback]

all companies big or small are out to screw us(part us from as much of our cash as they can legaly or illegaly get away with), some of them even have the audacity to band together to gang-rape us.

[markrb]

You guys seemed to miss my biggest point when I said:
In fact I think done correctly it's a good idea.
You missed the done correctly part.

What is happening and being proposed in Canada and other countries is just insane. I agree more then disagree with what you are saying.

That said I think what is happening now is out of panic by the entertainment industry. Their notion that the internet and the copying of music is hurting them is true and only getting worse. Sales are down for the second year in a row and this has never happened before. I don't agree that what they are doing is the right thing to do, but if trends continue something has to be done or we really will all suffer. It's going to get worse before it gets better is all I really know.

Mark

[Doom9]

there's a couple of really good studies showing why sales are down. The number of new CDs released within the last 5 years has dropped significantly while prices have gone up. It doesn't take an enconomist degree to find out this also means decreased sales. And movie studios are making a shitload of money with DVD sales.. in fact they're making more money than they used to with VHS tapes.

It will never be done correctly. I'd be the first one to support a reasonable copy protection scheme as SCMS where you can make copies from the original, but no copies from copies, and a reasonable fee for blank media in return for a permanent ban of anything that screws with my fair use rights but that is never going to happen and I know it.

[Ridgeback]

not only is the number of cd's released down, but the number of good cd's released is even lower, the majority of releases are bland, soulless generic pop rubbish(the record companies seem to think we should buy any churned out old rubbish) also the western birth-rates are steadily decreasing which means there are fewer gullible youngsters to buy the aforementioned generic pop rubbish.

[NeVeRLiFt]

Originally posted by Ridgeback
not only is the number of cd's released down, but the number of good cd's released is even lower, the majority of releases are bland, soulless generic pop rubbish(the record companies seem to think we should buy any churned out old rubbish) also the western birth-rates are steadily decreasing which means there are fewer gullible youngsters to buy the aforementioned generic pop rubbish.

I like the way you think ;)

Alot of this crap will not be played 5 or 20yrs from now thats for sure ;)

[ppera2]

This is for me just another example of general moral crysis of today World. If goverment can't catch pirates then they punish whole set of people. Consequence may be 'for example': that those people will feel free to find way to get their money back :-)