Subtitles in Maestro will not synch; drop_frame active

[Stress_analyst]

Hi all

I have been following the Maestro guides for Authoring video.m2v, AC3 and a subtitle stream. My problem is that I can’t get the subs synch with the video. The steps I use are the following:

Movie: Insomnia R1

1. I have extracted the insomnia_original.m2v and insomnia.ac3 with DVDDecrupter.
2. Do a full backup with Smartripper.
3. Get DVD2AVI to give me insomnia_original.d2v with forced film (I don’t remember if I used the original vob’s or the dvddecrypter m2v for this).
4. Encode to get insomnia.mpv with CCE (frameserve with .avs,and use the CCE guide and bitrate viewer for the settings).
5. Run pulldown –p to the encoded insomnia.mpv to get insomnia-p.m2v
6. Run pulldown –p and drop_frame to the encoded insomnia.mpv to get insomnia-drop.m2v
7. Import insomnia-p.m2v, insomnia-drop.m2v and insomnia.ac3 in Maestro
8. Get chapters text file with Chapter extractor
9. Get subtitles file with Suprip 1.02 or 1.11
10. Put insomnia-p.m2v in the timeline
11. Put insomnia.ac3 in the timeline
12. Import chapters
13. Replace insomnia-p.m2v with insomnia-drop.m2v in the timeline
14. Import Subtitles and then load color pallet. (all subs are perfect in appearance)
15. Replace insomnia-drop.m2v with insomnia-p.m2v in the timeline

Right then OR if I compile the project all the subs are late by about 14 sec which I think progressively is changing. Audio and video are in perfect synch.

Also when I do pulldown with the drop_frame true everything in the dos window is the same as the pulldown with –p. Should it be something different in the window indicating that the drop_frame flag is activated??

Subrip will give me the subs (.bmp) with their timing in the son file (there is no difference of the timing between the two versions of Subrip 1.02 and the latest 1.11). When I input the subs in Maestro with the insomnia-drop.m2v in the timeline the subs are imported in the correct time spots. The time spot of the subs in Maestro is the same as in the .son file.

The problem is that at the video frames of the m2v file are not matching this timing. For example the video frame at 4:48 sec from the insomnia-p.m2v or the insomnia-drop.m2v file is not the one matching the subtitle (according to the .son timing). The subs need to be moved 14 sec back in order to match the video.

Please note that when using Ifoedit to author,since there was a vob id split in the main movie, the subs of the second part of the movie were not there, but the initial subs were in synch!!!

I’m providing some info on my files, when inputted in Media Player, Maestro or CCE using .avs:

Insomnia.mpv---CCE output
Insomnia-p.m2v---Pulldown output
Insomnia-drop.m2v---Pulldown output drop frames

Insomnia.mpv---------WMP=1:58:05 sec----CCE.avs=1:58:05:17
Insomnia-p.mpv-------WMP=1:58:12 sec----Maestro=1:58:05:21
Insomnia-drop.mpv---WMP=1:58:12 sec----Maestro=1:58:05:21

Thank you,
The Analyst

[Eyes`Only]

You forgot to do the extras. Not to mention all the seamless branching that is in that DVD.

[Stress_analyst]

Thank you for the reply Eyes`Only

What if I just want the movie with one audio and one subtitle for my backup? I would rather use the original DVD for the extras and just have a backup for regular or travel use.
I should be able to mux all three. I have tried to use Ifoedit’s authoring feature but the subs are not working right since there is a vob-id split at the middle of the movie. So I decided to give Maestro a try.
This is what I have found so far.

If I use DVDDecrypter to demux main PGC .m2v and its Audio ac3 then the streams are starting from the 3rd vob-id instead of the 1st vob-id. The 1st and 2nd vob-ids are the WB logo and some warning rating frames. So my streams are starting from the movie vob-id which is the 3rd one. No problem with that…The internal streams timestamps are still working, since Maestro will synch demuxed Audio and demuxed encoded video without a problem.
Then Chapter extractor will use the same method to extract the chapters from the original. It will ignore the first 2 vob-ids and therefore the chapter list will be in synch with the demuxed audio and video streams in Maestro.
BUT Subrip will not follow the same method extracting the subs from the original. It will start timing from the vob-id 1. Therefore my subs are late in Maestro, even when using the drop frame flag in pulldown. The reason is that the subs timing is starting from vob-id 1.
Why do I suspect that? If I create the d2v project with the original VOBs instead of the demuxed decrypter video file then the subs will be imported in Maestro in perfect synch (when the drop frame true flag is used). So I could run the original VOBs through DVD2AVI to create the d2v project and the subs will synch. The problem is that then audio and chapters are not in synch any more (maybe the timestamps are not maintained that way).

Am I doing something wrong here or is this a regular issue with you all? I will try to remove the first 2 vob-ids with Ifoedit and then extract the subs from the new vobs. Then Maestro should synch everything.( I hope)

I’m not trying to do a full dvd copy but mux video,audio and subs with the correct chapters and using CCE. If there is a simpler method please point me to the right direction.

Thank you,

[Stress_analyst]

I guess this was the problem.
When you use dvd decrypter for just the movie it will skip the vob-ids that do not contain the movie but are in the main movie VOB files, when demuxing the .m2v and .ac3 files.
When you use subrip the timestamps in the subtitles .son file are based on the vod-id 1 and on. Therefore in order for the subs to be in synch in Maestro they must be extracted by a .VOB file that has been stripped from the initial vob-ids that dvd decrypter ignores. The way to do this is by stripping with ifoedit the original movie VOB files from the first vob-ids that dvd decrypter ignores. Then the sub's timestamps will start on the same point that the ripped video and audio files start and Maestro will synch everything.
Chapters will work that way too.
I hope that this will help someone in the future. Again this is what I found out by reading and trying. If there is a good source, a guide or another way to do this please comment in this thread for reference.

Thank you
The Analyst

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by Stress_analyst
Also when I do pulldown with the drop_frame true everything in the dos window is the same as the pulldown with –p. Should it be something different in the window indicating that the drop_frame flag is activated??

YES! If you do not see that it is telling you it is setting the drop frame flag then you will not have the correct file you need. If you do not have a drop-frame clip, your subs will NEVER be in sync.

If there is a good source, a guide or another way to do this please comment in this thread for reference.
There is! It's called a FULL dvd9-to-dvd5 backup!! hehe :D "Stripping this" and "moving that" and "authoring" (I use the term loosely) with IFOedit will always produce inconsistent results. If you stick to full backups, you stick to proven methods that produce consistent results. Allows for a lot less guessing on your projects.

[Eyes`Only]

not to mention laziness. I was going to help on this thread but once i learned that it was geared towards butchering a dvd, and 'stripping' stuff, i decided it wasn't worth my time. Do complete dvdr or get out of the game and let a new player grab the controller :D

[atreides93]

Eyes only, that's a bit rude don't you think?

Why is someone lazy just cause they don't want to back up all the extra CRAP some dvd's come with?? Some of us are only interested in the movie ya know. jeez...

[Eyes`Only]

Yes it is a bit rude. It wasn't meant to be 'nice' though.

There is! It's called a FULL dvd9-to-dvd5 backup!! hehe "Stripping this" and "moving that" and "authoring" (I use the term loosely) with IFOedit will always produce inconsistent results. If you stick to full backups, you stick to proven methods that produce consistent results. Allows for a lot less guessing on your projects.

Trilight hits it right on the nail. If users stick with butchershop methods there will never be an end to the questions that arise because someone doesn't do it properly.

Even if you do choose to do butchered DVDr, you should still do a couple the complete way to learn how it's done. It will then enable you to do your hacking and chopping without being confused about multipgc, etc. N00bs that do movie-only constantly get confused and post when they hit their first multipgc movie because their sound isn't synced (obvious reason to anyone that does complete dvdr). That's just one example of the ridiculous amount of questions we get just because someone never learned the complete way to do DVDr.

It works the same way in a job environment. When u get a new job, an employer (theoretically) shows you EVERYTHING you may need to do at that current job position. Most of it you will do very seldomly, if at all, but at least he showed you how to do it, so now you're responsible for the knowledge. And now you can do your job right, because you were shown the complete procedures.

We put the guides out there to show everyone how to do this stuff. If someone only reads one guide and the info is present in another guide to answer their question... hey we gave you the info, you just were too lazy to research!

Case scenario: Someone decides they want to do movie-only for whatever reason (laziness usually, occasionally maybe they just like main movies, but most ppl that AREN'T lazy and just like main-movie learn all about DVDs and never post stupid questions!), and then they read one guide. Grab a multipgc DVD, without even a concept of what multipgc is because they never read the multipgc guides. Of course their DVD won't work properly (or may work, and maybe a couple others, but they WILL run into a snag), and then they have no clue what to do because they never learned the fundamentals.

[atreides93]

Doesn't DVDDecryptor let you choose one PGC at a time???
That's what I usually do with it.

Just tell them to do that...and they won't have so many problems.

By the way, I've never had a job where my boss taught me everything I need to know :) most of the time my boss doesn't know it himself

[Eyes`Only]

Hehe good point. I should have said co-worker or person-whose-job-you're-replacing i guess :D

[TRILIGHT]

One of the biggest problems I find people running into with stripping stuff out instead of reauthoring as they should is they say certain menu selections do not work anymore. This is because they probably stripped out a section of the disc that had commands attached to it. Without it there and that selection is made, the player no longer knows what to do. Some do nothing. Others jump somewhere incorrectly. Still others lock up!

This is why I say "butchering" as Eyes' said...hehehe...will always produce inconsistent results. The problem is only exacerbated on a multi-PGC title! I do not condone leaving things out of a DVD backup (it's half of what makes DVD "DVD" in the first place!). However, I still recommend following the full backup methods as are listed in the guides (http://dvdguides.trilight.net). The reason for this is, you can see what you might want to leave out and simply replace that particular clip with a clip of "nothing". This way, you still have the correct STRUCTURE, just that the particular item no longer plays. The player will still behave properly though.

For instance (and this is the ONLY time I condone "leaving things out"), on "Enemy of the State", there are a TON of these "coming soon to DVD" things for movies I've not only seen but OWN too! I don't care to have them sucking up space needlessly on the DVD. Therefore, when recreating the original structure, I replaced these clips with a still frame that plays for about 3 secs that has a blue background and says "THIS SELECTION HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THIS DVD" as shown below...

http://dvdguides.trilight.net/SELECTION_REMOVED.gif

As such, there is at least something to go to. It sort of goes along the same lines as the Avisynth script documentation (if anyone has bothered reading it) where it says something similar to "Don't invoke Avisynth strangeness!" By the same token, I don't recommend invoking "DVD structure strangeness" by butchering. ;)

[deadk]

try the solution provided in this thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=42515

since u are refering to a r1

[Stress_analyst]

I was going to ignore some things since I didn’t want to induce a hostile spirit in this forum. But I think it’s time for me to engage.
I’m very thankful for DOOM9 and all the people that have contribute to this forum. And I mean all the people, from the most experience ones to the ones that have just entered the world of digital video.

I’m sure that who ever respond to this thread have searched my postings and realized that I was only trying to do the main movie with subs and a chapter working menu. I have studied the Scenarist multi PGC guide (and thread) (many times, otherwise I would have never figure out what my problem was) but it is too complicated for this stage of my experience. So I was experimenting with simpler software. I do agree that a multi PGC title is a different beast but we should be able to do the movie only with a working menu. BTW I haven’t even burn a multi PGC movie only in a DVD-R because I’m waiting to learn how to do the full backup first…

Anyway the solution to the problem was simple and it wasn’t in any of the guides, although there wouldn’t be a problem if the appropriate (but complicated) guide was followed. Any experienced person could have figure this out (I did after been puzzled for a week). Just posting an answer on why it is difficult to just do the movie in a multi PGC title regarding the subs would have been more helpful.
I’m sure that there are others out there like me that are not lazy but would like to progress linearly and not just follow blindly (very good I must say Trilight) guides. BTW regarding stupid questions; I think I have answered a question that many others have not understood. By reading other posts I think that people are blindly stripping logos and warnings without realizing that they will play a role in reauthoring. This is why I’ve posted my conclusion to my problem.

I’m sure that someone will read my posting and benefit from it, or will read others responses and think that he/she better do a full backup or there will be no help in this forum.

I was under the impression that this forum is open to everyone and people will always find help. I was under the impression that I should help anyone that asks a question that has not been asked before (too many times). Maybe someone woke up on the wrong side of their bed.
Anyway, I do agree with Trilight about creating problems and inconsistencies when not creating full backups (I will soon try the multi PGC method…AND YES my initial pulldown installation was NOT recognizing the drop frame flag, but that was not the problem in my case).

Let’s leave hostility out of the forum and try to help each other.
The Analyst