Scenarist/DVD Aspect Ratio Nightmare

[dan]

Hey guys,
I'm working on the same project that I have for the past while, and, again, I'm stuck...

As we all know [or as the new people are about to learn], the aspect ratio for all video streams within a title set needs to be the same... Pull (rip) apart a commercial DVD that has widescreen (anamorphic) menus, and you'll see that, generally, the menus are hiding within vts_01_0.vob, while the rest of the movie is in vts_01_x.vob. Once you have the vts_01_0.vob decrypted, demux one of the VOBid's that corresponds with a menu screen or video [it doesn't matter which] and load it into Scenarist, it will import as 4:3(panscan). [that 4:3panscan setting for the video clip itself does make sense, as that is why widescreen menus are "zoomed in" on fullscreen TVs.] I figured that maybe Scenarist didn't like the file and goofed, detecting it as a variant of 4:3, so I checked within DVD2AVI [which, from looking around the DVD-> DivX forums, has been labeled as "close to faultless" (I mean no offense to those guys over there...I use it for that task too...] and it shows it to be 4:3. Knowing that I pulled it from a VTS that was 16:9, and the DVD standard doesn't allow for that sort of party, I decided to investigate further.
I looked at the ifo for the corresponding VOB, and, lo-and-behold, the menu video is defined in there as 16:9panscan not 4:3panscan.

I was and remain confused about how exactly that's all working behind the scenes, but I decided to just try authoring while keeping this new stuff in mind. I figured 16:9 panscan would be where it's at . I took the existing 16:9 video files I had, and used restream to turn-on the panscan data [it's actually called 'sequence display extension']. I imported it, but Scenarist listed nothing for the file other than 16:9. Then I tried encoding with CCE with the panscan option selected...still nothing for 16:9, so I tried it in 4:3, and the panscan proprty shows up within Scenarist after the import...success? Almost.

Now, yes, it is good that the 4:3 (panscan) video can be imported, but of course, Scenarist won't allow it in the same VTS as the movie proper. The first thing I'd think of would be to utilize the video manager for the menus and a different VTS for the movie, but, Scenarist users, imagine chapter selection where you can't just drag from the menu to the cell that defines that chapter because the menu is in a different title set than the chapters. Sounds like it'd be a boatload of dummy PGCs, and/or, as I usually say for things I don't really understand so well with DVDs, GPRMs...lots of GPRM usage (well, it's just a guess). The point is, I wouldn't think that "Hollywood" would go this route, so I figure I'm just doing something wrong or ignorantly.

It boils down to this...

[B]How can some parts (the menus, in particular) of a VTS seem to be a different aspect ratio than the rest? VTS_0X_0.vob isn't part of the video manager, is it? [I do believe that the video manager corresponds with video_ts.vob.]

I guess that, somehow, getting the video to be 16:9panscan (if possible) is the ideal situation, but I haven't found a way to do it that works. Is this a bad avenue to pursue?

For those of you authoring DVDs from scratch, has this issue come up before, and I'm just dumb?

Thanks a lot in advance and sorry for the length...

Dan

[UTec]

Originally posted by dan
How can some parts (the menus, in particular) of a VTS seem to be a different aspect ratio than the rest? VTS_0X_0.vob isn't part of the video manager, is it?

I guess that, somehow, getting the video to be 16:9panscan (if possible) is the ideal situation, but I haven't found a way to do it that works. Is this a bad avenue to pursue?

For those of you authoring DVDs from scratch, has this issue come up before, and I'm just dumb?

Thanks a lot in advance and sorry for the length...

Dan

Dan,

I had the same problem as you. It took me a good while to figure out how the whole thing works when using Scenarist for the first time so I know what you're going through. About VTS_0x_0.vob, you are absolutely right. It isn't part of the video manager, it's the Language sub-domain of VTS_x.

The PGC's that you create under the VMG's Language sub-domain will be multiplexed in VIDEO_TS.VOB when you create the VTS tilteset. And, the PGC's that you create under the Language sub-domain of any VTS_x domain will be multiplexed in VTS_0x_0.VOB. Then, all the PGC's you create under regular Titles of that same VTS_x will end up being multiplexed into VTS_0x_1.VOB, VTS_0x_2.VOB, etc...

Sounds confusing?... You bet. Let me give you an example by attempting to illustrate the typical structure used by commercial DVD's:

_____ _______
|First| | |
| PGC | | VMG | <--- VMG is a kinda like a special domain
|_____| |DOMAIN | There MUST be one and ONLY one
| |_______|
| |
| ____|_____
| | ENGLISH |
| |Language | <--- You can have several Language sub-domains
| |Sub-Domain| but there is usually only one: ENGLISH
| |__________| Regular titles are not allowed in the VMG
| |
| _____|____
| ___/__ ___\__
| | | | |
->| PGC1 | | PGC2 | .... etc..
|Title | |______|
|Menu |
|______|



Now you could have menus in the VMG but they would all end up in VIDEO_TS.VOB and that's not how most DVD's are structured. The PGC's in the VMG are typically the first play segment, parental & region settings and that friendly FBI copyright warning :)

The First play PGC is a special dummy PGC which typically points to the the first PGC of the VMG. Scenarist automatically tags the first PGC you create under the Language domain as the Title menu although it's not actually a menu if you use it as the first play segment (but you could make it a menu if you wanted to).

When you insert the disc in the drawer, the DVD player automatically goes to the First play PGC. Since there are no cells in that PGC, all it does is execute its pre and post commands. So that PGC MUST point to something otherwise nothing will happen when you insert the disc.

However, you would still be able to call the Title menu of your DVD by pressing the "Top menu" key on your remote but that's not a very good way of doing things because it might be confusing for the user.

Let's look at the VTS domain next:

_______
| |
| VTS_1 | <--- Regular VTS domain (there can be up to 99)
|DOMAIN | What's under this is mux'ed as VTS_01_x.VOB
|_______| What's under VTS_2 mux'ed as VTS_02_x.VOB
| etc..
____|________________________
____/_____ ____\____
| ENGLISH | | |
|Language | VTS_01_0.VOB | Title_1 | VTS_01_1.VOB
|Sub-Domain| | (movie) | VTS_01_2.VOB
|__________| |_________| etc..
| |
_____|____ |_________
___/__ ___\__ ___|__ __|___
| | | | | | | |
| PGC1 | | PGC2 | ..etc.. | PGC1 | | PGC2 | ..etc..
| Root | |(menu)| |______| |______|
| menu | |______|
|______| PTT, Audio, Subpic,
Main menu transitions, etc..


As you can see, the Language sub-domain in a normal VTS domain resides at the same hierarchical level as regular Titles. In rough layman's terms, you could say that Language sub-domains are "special titles used for menus". They are called domains in the Scenarist docs but since they are somewhat a "cross breed" between top-level domains like the VMG/VTS'es and a Title, I prefer to refer to them as sub-domains for the sake of logic. :)

Hereon, the problem of menus having a different aspect ratio than the movie (which is pretty much ALWAYS the case) is solved because their respective PGC's reside in different "titles". I believe this answers your second question by the by :D

Furthermore, the advantage of putting your menus in the Language sub-domain of of VTS_1 is that this will enable you to link the buttons of the chapter menus to the individual programs (cells) of the PGC's in Title_1. If your chapter menus had been in the VMG or in another VTS, the link could not have been created because linking to individual cells in a different VTS domain is not allowed.

Similarly to the VMG, you can have several Language sub-domains in VTS titles but I've never seen more than 1 (always ENGLISH) since those are (AFAIK) always used for menus. Placing the movie PGC in Title_1 will make it so that your DVD player's display will report your movie as Title 1 Chap x during playback.

If your movie is a plain title without any fancy stuff like multi-angle or seamless branching, the whole movie can be in the same PGC with as many cells as there are chapters.

Oh... about the 16:9 panscan vs. 4:3 panscan thing?... I asked the same question myself a short while ago but never got an answer. I did some research on the subject as best as I could. The only conclusion I can see is that they're 2 terms for the same thing (I could be wrong though). Terminology is one of the most confusing aspects of learning this art.

Hope this helps clear up things for you.

[i]PS:
Any experts out there feel that I'm wrong about anything at all in the above, by all means please do feel free to correct me. Like everyone else here, I'm still learning.

[dan]

Thank you thank you thank you. I'll choose not tell you how much time I spent yesterday nor what time I finally went to sleep due to trying to figure this out. The solution must've been the only thing I didn't try...

Thanks again,
Dan