NTSC DVD's with 24 fps

[ppera2]

I read about such NTSC DVD's which are recorded with 24 fps progressive video. Player must perform Telecine by playback...
I didn't see such DVD yet (unless DVD2AVI reports fps wrong).
Can someone give some examples (titles)?

[Slogra]

Most movie DVDs are 24fps, except tv programs. Your DVD2AVI settings are not right, you have to choose Video -> Field Operation -> Forced FILM

[ppera2]

Sogra, I didn't ask for DVD2AVI manual.

[MvB]

Every DVD made from a cinema movie is normaly recorded 23.976 FPS progressive, e.g. Lord of the rings, Fifth element, Starwars I,II and nearly all movies more.
The (pseudo) interlaced frames are constructed by the player to make the movie watchable on TV. Computerplayers play thoses DVDs with 23.976 progressive FPS.

DVDs made from Interlaced video are normaly converted to interlaced mpeg2 (like the addons of a DVD, where you have to use a deinterlacer to get rid of the nasty weaved lines), e.g. TV-Productions filmed on video, Homevideos...

Hope that helps

MvB

[DJ Bobo]

Yeah, a lot, by only hollywood productions!
I've got so many anime NTSC DVDs, so many of them, although all of them is genuinely 23,976fps progressive, only 2 DVDs out of ... more than 100 DVDs are encoded properly 100% in progressive mode. All others were 100% 29,97fps interlaced and some were kinda 70% FILM and 30% NTSC.
Man I could kick those who are authoring those DVDs!! :angry:

When will they learn to encode 24fps stuff always in FILM mode :confused:

[int 21h]

Pulldown.

[ppera2]

So, this means that when DVD2AVI reports that it's FILM, and people leaves it at 29.97 fps that program itself inserts duplicate fields (telecines) ? Little surprising...

A seen lot of chinese DVD's, and most of them reports as NTSC, but they can be IVTC-ed fine with Decomb or TMPGenc.

[jggimi]

DVD2AVI reports in the preview window what the mpeg-2 stream settings are, frame by frame. The results shown will depend upon the film transfer technologies and methodologies used by the DVD mastering facility. There's a great deal of discussion about filter options and choices to manage different results, in http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm and I recommend reviewing the document, if you've not already done so.

[manono]

Hi-

So, this means that when DVD2AVI reports that it's FILM, and people leaves it at 29.97 fps that program itself inserts duplicate fields (telecines)?

Yep-but it's just following the flags set during the telecine process (aka 2:3 pulldown). NTSC Movies are usually stored on the DVD as 24fps progressive. Robshot (http://www.doom9.org/synch.htm) has a pretty good article on this site that explains what's going on:

A good thing about Mpeg-2 Video is that it can contain some FLAGS or PROGRAMMING, that would tell a SOFTWARE or HARDWARE
to perform a TELECINE when playing the Video. Since the INTERLACED FRAMES that made-up the 29.97fps is a REPEATED field(s),
it is REDUNDANT, and TRASHABLE. Just let the FLAGS tells the player to perform the TELECINE. Really, it CAN do that.
The benefit of this that the movie CAN be stored in its original 24 FRAME per second, and thus SAVE 20% of total filesize!

[Chibi Jasmin]

Is there any MPEG2-/DVD-Player-Software/DirectShowFilter that can be configured to perform telecine on 23.976 progressive NTSC input to output 29.97 fps?

[int 21h]

You can set the necessary flags to change progressive MPEG-2 input to 29.97 FPS simply by using pulldown.exe (or a similar method). This changes nothing in the content of the video itself other than altering flags in the stream so that the necessary fields are repeated.

[Chibi Jasmin]

I was referring to normal movie NTSC DVDs. These should have the flag already set, shouldn't they? I think hardware players play them with telecide (don't have one to test), but software players ignore the flag, did I get that wrong? Anyway I will try to play with the flag and see what happens...

UPDATE: didn't work, I ripped a stream from one of these DVDs and ran it through pulldown.exe. Intervideo Decoder at least still does only progressive frames...and even if it worked, it wouldn't help me with my problem:

I am trying to have smooth playback of NTSC DVDs on either PAL TV with 25 fps (fps conversion necessary: DivXG400 forced into the filter chain only works for 2 ch audio, otherwise video is slow motion, DVobSub forced into the filter chain: force fps fails on mpeg2-content, anyone knows any other method for on the fly fps-conversion: a player that can be set to fast-forward at 1.0427 with audio or something?) or on NTSC TV with 29.97 fps which would need on the fly telecine by the software player/direct show filter...

[adam]

All normal ntsc dvd players will process the pulldown flags and telecine the video to 29.97fps in real time. This is what is happening on %99 of ntsc dvds that you watch. A progressive scan dvd player will essentially bypass the pulldown flags and export the original 24fps material which is ideal for the progressive nature of an HDTV set.

Notice that I did not make the distinction between hardware and software dvd players. It is my understanding that a software dvd player works, or at least attempts to work, exactly like a hardware dvd player would. When you play an ntsc dvd on WinDVD for example, it will process the pulldown flags and telecine the material to 29.97fps and it will simultaneously deinterlace so that you get progressive 29.97fps material, because the pc monitor is progressive scan. I don't have any proof of this but I can only assume this is what is happening since (1) I don't see interlacing when watching on my monitor yet (2) I get smooth playback on my non-HDTV using tv-out, and thus the video must be running at 29.97fps. Perhaps there are some software dvd players that allow you to toggle whether the pulldown flags are processed but I don't know of any. So Chibi Jasmin the answer to your question is yes, any software dvd player should perform the telecine during playback, at least as far as I know.

[int 21h]

I believe the graphics card, and TV-OUT perform these functions (hence the ability of selecting PAL/NTSC/etc televisions in Control Panel options), and not the software DVD player.

[DJ Bobo]

@ adam
Software DVD players DON'T telecine, they keep the 23,976fps without any processing (thanks god it's that way!)
As int 21h said, it's the TV-OUT that makes 29,97fps output to your TV.
If the Soft DVD player was to telecine and then to deinterlace, you'll see a lot of blends and jerky motion during panoramics on your monitor.

BTW, as said above, there is (too) many NTSC DVDs that aren't encoded properly in 24fps, especially anime DVDs. So 99% is way too exagerated, I would rather say 99% of hollywood movies ares encoded properly and only 5% of all anime DVDs are encoded properly.
Why is that? don't know!

Does 24fps encoding costs more than "normal" 30fps interlaced encoding?! does anybody know?

[adam]

Ok then my mistake.

Dj Bobo, judging from your avatar you may take offense at this but I purposefully did not take anime into account in my % estimation. I honestly think grown men watching cartoons is silly; Simpsons and the occasional Disney/Pixas movie being exceptions. Alot of things that originate on broadcast tv; Friends, Seinfeild and certainly almost all anime is pure ntsc or some form of hybrid, however the vast majority of theatrically released movies are stored on dvd at 24fps. That's all I was getting at.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by adam
I honestly think grown men watching cartoons is silly; Simpsons and the occasional Disney/Pixas movie being exceptions.

How do you know he is a grown man? He maybe a she wearing jumpsuit orange in a Minimum security facility... Why don't you just keep such thoughts to yourself in the future as you're only likely to cause troublle

[adam]

Oh give me a break, I'm hardly a troll. I thought it was pretty clear that I did not intend to offend anyone and I also thought it was pretty clear that I was only joking. I guess from now on I'll have to add a disclaimer to my posts so that there is no more confusion. Also I don't see how assuming someone is an adult is insulting.

Believe me the last thing I intended to do was start a flame war about anime of all things. Can't a person just say something in passing? Geesh lighten up.

[Chibi Jasmin]

Still three questions :)

1. Is there any way to set any software-player/filter to do telecine on 23.976 ntsc source?

2. How can I check, if my Matrox G400 DH performs telecine or not, when I set it to NTSC-Output and feed it 23.976 fps input? Judging with my eyes is not clear for me...any way to force it DO telecine or DON'T DO telecine?

3. I am still in the following dilemma with my DVD filter-chain trying to speed up 23.976 fps-discs on the fly for display on a 25 fps pal tv:

Intervideo Navigator and Cyberlink Navigator crash Zoom Player V2.90 Final. DVD Navigator resets DVobSub fps-conversion. :(

Intervideo Video Decoder reports wrong fps. -> DVobSub fails. Cyberlink Video Decoder reports correct fps, and works with DVobSub (connect indirectly Video Decoder to Overlay mixer with DVobSub loaded), but DVD Navigator still is the problem (see above).

workaround for now: Force DivXG400 into the chain for fps-conversion and set intervideo audio decoder to Dolby Surround, multichannel doesn't work with divxg400! :(

other workaround: rip movie to harddisk to play from there and use Cyberlink video decoder together with DVobSub to set fps! (No Navigator needed)

Both workarounds are not optimal...any help?

[ppera2]

There is too much speculation and very little real and prowen fact.

One thing more: there is lot of movies on DVD which starts with logo of publisher, and that logo is NTSC (according to DVD2AVI), later, when is movie itself it is FILM. But it's not possible that in 1 VOB we have 2 different framerate (29.97 & 23.976).
So it can't be at 23.976 I think.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by ppera2
There is too much speculation and very little real and prowen fact.

One thing more: there is lot of movies on DVD which starts with logo of publisher, and that logo is NTSC (according to DVD2AVI), later, when is movie itself it is FILM. But it's not possible that in 1 VOB we have 2 different framerate (29.97 & 23.976).
So it can't be at 23.976 I think.

Ironic that with your second sentence lends weight to your first sentence. Fully NTSC material (i.e. 30 unique frames per second [like studio logos, special effects, etc.]) can easily be mixed with FILM material in the same VOB file by placing them in seperate cells, in fact this is how it is done. Furthermore, you don't have two different framerates, you have one entire file of 29.97 FPS upon playback, FILM sections are simply areas that DVD2AVI can distinguish the pulldown flags set and ignores them (yielding 23.976), NTSC sections are simply areas that DVD2AVI cannot see a set pattern of flags.

Originally posted by Chibi Jasmin
1. Is there any way to set any software-player/filter to do telecine on 23.976 ntsc source?

2. How can I check, if my Matrox G400 DH performs telecine or not, when I set it to NTSC-Output and feed it 23.976 fps input? Judging with my eyes is not clear for me...any way to force it DO telecine or DON'T DO telecine?

3. I am still in the following dilemma with my DVD filter-chain trying to speed up 23.976 fps-discs on the fly for display on a 25 fps pal tv:


(1) Not in our realm, there are of course many things out there intended for those in the Broadcast business to do this in realtime (i.e. Satellite TV)

(2) You want to set it to PAL-Ouput because you have a PAL TV and you want 25fps, not 24.

(3) See Above.

[DJ Bobo]

@ ppera2
I don't know how they do that but it's really possible to mix 23,976fps and 29,97fps in one VOB. For example, on the cowboy bebop DVDs, most episodes are kinda 70% FILM and 30% NTSC, although it is originally 100% FILM. How they do that?! don't ask me!

@ adam
Reading your post reveals a lot of things, especially: you don't even know what anime is.
Anime is what japanese do, and cartoon is what americans do.
First thing to begin with, I don't like cartoon, because it hasn't japanese flair at all.
Second thing, there is anime for children (like pokémon), those I hate and don't even care about! and there is anime for teenies, like DBZ (the uncut 13+ rated japanese version of course, not the US edited TV-version of it which is rated 3+ :scared: ), Inuyasha & Evangelion, and grown-ups (like Golden Boy, Sakura Diaries, etc), and those I like.
I know, even if I tell you to do, you won't do, but nevertheless I'll tell you: watch anime titles like "Ghost in the Shell", "Ninja Scroll" & "Princess Mononoke" and then try to tell me that "I honestly think grown men watching cartoons is silly" again, where you replace that "cartoons" of yours with "anime" ;)

One thing is sure, once you get into anime, you'll never come out again :D

[Chibi Jasmin]

Originally posted by int 21h

(2) You want to set it to PAL-Output because you have a PAL TV and you want 25fps, not 24.

(3) See Above.

I can also use NTSC output on my TV and in fact I AM using it for 29.97 fps material (truely interlaced NTSC stuff for example).

Of course, for the 23.976 progressive NTSC-material setting to PAL output and speeding up to 25 fps is the preferred solution for me.

[adam]

DJ Bobo, well this is really semantics. I have seen some anime and I was just using the word cartoon loosely. But you are right, I really don't know what anime is. It's just something I have never gotten into, but to each his own.

[ppera2]

Originally posted by int 21h
Ironic that with your second sentence lends weight to your first sentence...


I didn't tell that I'm smarter than most of people here. Unfortunatelly I see lot of answers in this forum with such replies - I think... probably etc. Silence is golden...
After lot of search I found some explanation how it goes in DVD2AVI: http://arbor.ee.ntu.edu.tw/~jackei/dvd2avi/doc/issue.html.

[hakko504]

IMHO I think the option in DVD2AVI should be called 'Force NTSC' and work the other way around, since it is a much more accurate description of what is going on...

[adam]

Hmmm, makes more sense to me the way it is.

As is the DVD will be read as being NTSC. By enabling this option in dvd2avi you force it to export the material as film (ntscfilm) as opposed to NTSC, hence force film.

[manono]

Hi-

As is the DVD will be read as being NTSC.

Yes, that's right. But it seems to me that No Field Operation should give you back the 24fps as it is on the DVD. Then Force NTSC will give you the telecined output. The wording confused me for a good long time. I agree with hakko504.

[adam]

Oh well I guess we just think differently...

It seems to me that if something is called force ntsc than the logical assumption is that you would actually get ntsc output.

If I used no field operation I would assume I would get the same output as what a dvd player gets, ntsc.

PotAto, Potato...we all know what it does.

[ppera2]

Originally posted by hakko504
IMHO I think the option in DVD2AVI should be called 'Force NTSC' and work the other way around, since it is a much more accurate description of what is going on...

Right, that 'Force Film' confused me... Maybe should say something like 'Keep Film' or similar.