Proposal: USF - Universal Subtitle Format

[BetaBoy]

When developing our upcoming release of The Core Media Player we identified several <weak> areas. One of those being subtitles... So we enlisted a few ppl (Toff, Blacksun) to help in putting together a new XML/DTD standard.

The goal of the Universal Subtitle Format (USF) is to create a new format taking the best of currently available subtitles formats and extending it and making it flexible enough to be used in every day subtitling.

Here is our first release of the USF Specification (thanx Toff, Ludovic):
http://christophe.paris.free.fr/usf/USF_V100-20021110.txt

You can find others files (DTD, XML samples, XSL) here :
http://christophe.paris.free.fr/usf/

Realtime Example Project:
http://www.moosegate.com/betaboy/USFTest.zip


BTW... We are currently trying to get eith this spec integrated into MCF and or have MCF support via a UCI interface.

So if you all can take a look at the current spec and make any comments on it structure. We will address any concerns and take into consideration any changes that people suggest.

also... in case you are gonna ask... the licensing will be somthing along the line of LGPL or BSD, were still trying to see what works best for both software and hardware... but open to use for ANYONE.

The code will be hosted on on http://www.corecodec.com for all to enjoy.

Schultz.... I think Christian and foogod have pinged ya... I was wondering what your thoughts were... lmk... thx

[Zarxrax]

Hmmm... I don't really see what you are trying to accomplish here. Exactly what advantages is this offering over current formats, and how are current formats lacking? I thought just using an srt or a sub file was sufficient for dvd rips :confused:

[Schultz]

When i talked to Christian on IRC yesterday that i don't think USF should be part of the MFC specs.. They should leave it open so that anyone could write the own UCI codec that puts subs into mfc and also read subs from it..

Also talked with him about streaming ability with mfc and having the styles at the beginning of the file. But he told me that you could store this information in the meta information that is repeated ever so often and when you load the Filter/Player would get the defined styles so it knew how to use them.

Also i like the idea of having posted being able to have Multiple tracks in one subtitle file this would make keeping them external easier then 3 different files.. But i think if they are muxed into mcf that they should then get there own stream so support both methods might be a better idea.

But to make it really popular i think that the Subtitle format will need a good editor like ssa has for its format and that is why alot of people that do fansubs online use it because of this and how much stuff the format supports which usf will have that much support it looks by the specs just hopefully will have a decent editor for it.

[BetaBoy]

But to make it really popular i think that the Subtitle format will need a good editor like ssa has for its format and that is why alot of people that do fansubs online use it because of this and how much stuff the format supports which usf will have that much support it looks by the specs just hopefully will have a decent editor for it.

Already in the works ;-)... thx for teh reply.

[int 21h]

What I detest about any format that is not VobSub is OCR. When the original subtitles are available from a disc, why would you use anything else? (Fansubs are a totally different story)

[Zarxrax]

@Betaboy: If you are intending this new format to be used by fansubbers, I can almost assure you that it wont happen, even if an editor were available. From an anime fansubbers viewpoint, your format is a step backward from what we do. It just wont happen.
I'm not trying to discourage you from developing, I'm just saying this so you dont waste time and effort that you could spend elsewhere.

[BetaBoy]

Originally posted by Zarxrax
@Betaboy: If you are intending this new format to be used by fansubbers, I can almost assure you that it wont happen, even if an editor were available. From an anime fansubbers viewpoint, your format is a step backward from what we do. It just wont happen.
I'm not trying to discourage you from developing, I'm just saying this so you dont waste time and effort that you could spend elsewhere.

Zarxrax... Please explain further. I want to understand you better.. I and many other actually think the complete opposite. Hence why we created it for TCMP in the first place.

We have now opted to look much larger then just TCMP under soem valuable advise from many people and changed it's name to USF.

Please take a moment to download and look at the power of the format with the test project linked below. This speaks volumes on how versitile it will be.

http://www.moosegate.com/betaboy/USFTest.zip

[Zarxrax]

While this certainly looks interesting, you can already do any of this stuff (with the exception of images) plus a WHOLE LOT MORE with the ASS (Advanced SubStation) subtitle format. Unless you add all of the features that people are using from that format, fansubbers aren't going to switch. Plus, even if you add all the features that it has, you needs to make your format significantly better before anyone would bother with it. I mean, why would someone bother to take the time to learn xml and how to write scripts in this format when they can already do everything in an ASS script? Plus this format is designed to be a seperate stream in the file, not hardcoded into the video. Fansubbers wont go for that. Almost every group keeps their scripts private.

Question: Are the subtitles all supposed to appear in the default video window without me having to resize it?

[BetaBoy]

Originally posted by Zarxrax
While this certainly looks interesting, you can already do any of this stuff (with the exception of images) plus a WHOLE LOT MORE with the ASS (Advanced SubStation) subtitle format. Unless you add all of the features that people are using from that format, fansubbers aren't going to switch. Plus, even if you add all the features that it has, you needs to make your format significantly better before anyone would bother with it. I mean, why would someone bother to take the time to learn xml and how to write scripts in this format when they can already do everything in an ASS script? Plus this format is designed to be a seperate stream in the file, not hardcoded into the video. Fansubbers wont go for that. Almost every group keeps their scripts private.

Question: Are the subtitles all supposed to appear in the default video window without me having to resize it?

We a few things... Can you define "A WHOLE LOT MORE" please? As far as features... yes we are planning on extending the format even further, much further what is available now. But please remember.... this was just our first draft.

As far as writing XML it will not be necessary (but available) when we release the USF Subtitle Creator/Editor as it will do all the coding for you.

On being a seperate stream... this is being addressed and will be able to be hardcoded into the video....

To restate... this is not some little side project. This is a PLATFORM and with the support, input and comments like yours, we have some substantial input on what we are gonna add and improve on.

[[Toff]]

Yes, we are still definning the format, so take your chance. Just ask for the small feature that you don't have in any other format.

The effect (scrolling, rotation...) part is on the todo list, if you look into the spec. there is the start of an idea but it need more developpement.

We are also searching for a way to not have to hardcode subtitle to video to keep script private.
This way you would be able to change the size of the text, it's good to avoid eyestrain with small computer screen ;)
Moreover you keep all video bitrate for video.

If you have any idea... don't hesitate, we will try to add it to the spec.

[Zarxrax]

Well if it is able to go into the container without being able to be ripped, that seems like a fair reason to want to switch. However I have my doubts as to being able to accomplish something like that. I mean if people can crack copy protection on *everything*, what makes you think whatever you implement wouldn't be cracked?
As for what I meant by "a whole lot more", just see the specs for ASS format and compare what it has that yours is lacking. I think you would need to be able to do EVERYTHING that is possible in ASS with your filter (with the exception of ASS's drawing thing, thats just damn crazy O_O)

Anyways, this all sounds prety interesting, I guess we'll just wait and see how it all turns out. Good luck.

Oh yes, one more thing. The creator of the script should be able to flag certain things such that the user cant change the style of the text. You go through a good bit of trouble trying to get a sign or something aligned in the perfect spot, then the viewer has some settings to modify the styles, and everything goes to hell, and he thinks its the fault of whoever made the script ;)

[BlackSun]

Hi there :)

To explain a bit the origin of the USF, the thing is that I am a BIG animes fansub fan, I got the chance to discuss with the encoder of some groups and they told me that having the subtitles embedded in the video make file larger (it's logic, subtitles have high contrasts). Also I've often heard that they'd love to have a XML format.

Also imagine that we can change the size of the subtitles at playback, or change the default style color, because sometimes, it's a pain to read them.

We know that the format miss some features, it's being developed atm and we'll add more and more features later.

As for the script being ripped, we are also aware of that and be sure that we'll purpose an encryption system. We didn't find yet a good way to do it, but we'll do :)

[ukendt]

Any new usable proggy is wellcome.
Let the users decide whether it will be any help or not....:D